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Mikejoed 14-07-2011 15:18

Where have all the graves gone?
 
As a keen historian I am disappointed and extremely bemused at the seemingly callous way that grave stones from former church yards have been removed. I understand that in the recent past St James Parish church in Accrington ended its burial policy and its former residents [corpses] were transferred to Christchurch; with the exception of a handful. Records describe the remains being in the church's vault but I have asked people who attend the church and ministers where it is and they say there is no vault. An old Accrington newspaper report states that most of the coffins were in good repair and able to be relocated. Only one, that of thomas Hargreaves was broken and that was re-encased and remained in the vault where it lay! Look at any old photos of the church and you can see the number of gravestones there used to be at St James.

The same applies to Christchurch. I find it unbelievable that the graves were uprooted and a children's playground created over the area :eek:
When I broached the subject with the present minister he was very quick to say that everything was done according to the law and that records of the deceased would have been transferred to Lancashire County records office in Preston. What gets me is the fact that the funds for building churches like Christchuirch came from generous benefactors whose memory and munificence one would expect to be respected. Having no doubt paid a fee to be buried in the church's grave yard, simply because they no longer have any family left in the vicinity they feel they can discard them as they please. OK, so the records may be at Lancashire County records office but where are the headstones? Had they have been left around the edges of the church grounds at least ancestors looking for past relatives could see some evidence of their existence on site. I just think the churches have acted disgracefully and without any respect for their former benefactors and church members.

Again, as with St James, on old photos of Christchurch you can see the number of grave stones towards the rear of the church, where the play area is now but where would they have gone? Surely not destroyed :eek:

jaysay 14-07-2011 17:32

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoe (Post 918846)
As a keen historian I am disappointed and extremely bemused at the seemingly callous way that grave stones from former church yards have been removed. I understand that in the recent past St James Parish church in Accrington ended its burial policy and its former residents [corpses] were transferred to Christchurch; with the exception of a handful. Records describe the remains being in the church's vault but I have asked people who attend the church and ministers where it is and they say there is no vault. An old Accrington newspaper report states that most of the coffins were in good repair and able to be relocated. Only one, that of thomas Hargreaves was broken and that was re-encased and remained in the vault where it lay! Look at any old photos of the church and you can see the number of gravestones there used to be at St James.

The same applies to Christchurch. I find it unbelievable that the graves were uprooted and a children's playground created over the area :eek:
When I broached the subject with the present minister he was very quick to say that everything was done according to the law and that records of the deceased would have been transferred to Lancashire County records office in Preston. What gets me is the fact that the funds for building churches like Christchurch came from generous benefactors whose memory and munificence one would expect to be respected. Having no doubt paid a fee to be buried in the church's grave yard, simply because they no longer have any family left in the vicinity they feel they can discard them as they please. OK, so the records may be at Lancashire County records office but where are the headstones? Had they have been left around the edges of the church grounds at least ancestors looking for past relatives could see some evidence of their existence on site. I just think the churches have acted disgracefully and without any respect for their former benefactors and church members.

Again, as with St James, on old photos of Christchurch you can see the number of grave stones towards the rear of the church, where the play area is now but where would they have gone? Surely not destroyed :eek:

Well if the gravestones have gone so have the graves, which would suggest they were moved together;)

MargaretR 14-07-2011 17:43

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
You shouldn't regret their moving.
When bodies are well rotted and graves never visited they shouldn't occupy land that could be better used.

Retlaw 14-07-2011 18:10

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 918846)
As a keen historian I am disappointed and extremely bemused at the seemingly callous way that grave stones from former church yards have been removed. I understand that in the recent past St James Parish church in Accrington ended its burial policy and its former residents [corpses] were transferred to Christchurch; with the exception of a handful. Records describe the remains being in the church's vault but I have asked people who attend the church and ministers where it is and they say there is no vault. An old Accrington newspaper report states that most of the coffins were in good repair and able to be relocated. Only one, that of thomas Hargreaves was broken and that was re-encased and remained in the vault where it lay! Look at any old photos of the church and you can see the number of gravestones there used to be at St James.

The same applies to Christchurch. I find it unbelievable that the graves were uprooted and a children's playground created over the area :eek:
When I broached the subject with the present minister he was very quick to say that everything was done according to the law and that records of the deceased would have been transferred to Lancashire County records office in Preston. What gets me is the fact that the funds for building churches like Christchuirch came from generous benefactors whose memory and munificence one would expect to be respected. Having no doubt paid a fee to be buried in the church's grave yard, simply because they no longer have any family left in the vicinity they feel they can discard them as they please. OK, so the records may be at Lancashire County records office but where are the headstones? Had they have been left around the edges of the church grounds at least ancestors looking for past relatives could see some evidence of their existence on site. I just think the churches have acted disgracefully and without any respect for their former benefactors and church members.

Again, as with St James, on old photos of Christchurch you can see the number of grave stones towards the rear of the church, where the play area is now but where would they have gone? Surely not destroyed :eek:

No reburials have ever taken place at Christ Church, I've lived in the area for 80 years, all the burials in Christ Church, which was full years ago, have been recorded, the Vicar lent me the 3 books of burial records, which I indexed. With the aid of Atarah holding one end of a tape measure, and numbers marked on the surrounding walls, I was able to draw a plan of the Church yard, and all the grave sites. No bodies have been exhumed either. As for St James, don't know of any exhumations there either, some years ago some one stole the map of the grave yard from a book in Accy Library, with the aid of a photograph I was able to draw a new one, most of the grave stones were just moved to form a path way round the church yard. The only reburials in the past 50 years were the Oak St Congregationalist, they were reburied in Accy Cem. The other one was the old Macpelah on Hyndburn Rd. Jack Broderick & I spent two days filming them, not all the remains from there were reburied, some just had bags of lime tipped in, and recovered, quite a lot were moved to Accy Cem. Most of the grave markers in Macpelah were taken to New Lane Ossy, but several were cracked by the bulldozer drivers ignoring the requests to preserve them. Atarah & I cleared all the gravestones in Macpelah some 30 years ago, and I photographed them all.
Retlaw.

Tealeaf 14-07-2011 18:20

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Walter - have you ever come across any evidence of an ossuary in Accrington (apart from the aptly named Ossy, that is)?

Retlaw 14-07-2011 18:53

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 918921)
Walter - have you ever come across any evidence of an ossuary in Accrington (apart from the aptly named Ossy, that is)?

Apart from Ossy no. One thing has puzzled me for years, when I indexed the parish registers for Church Kirk, St James Altham, St James Acc, & St Bartholomews Gt Harwood, from the number of burials, why the ground isn't 6 ft higher than it is.
Retlaw.

Mikejoed 20-07-2011 17:19

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Whether the corpses were removed or not the Headstones most definitely have been and these were historical evidences that should have remained at the church. I understand there was quite a huge memorial headstone dedicated to Robert Hargreaves, one of the major benefactors to Christchurch and its day school.

I will scan the newspaper clipping that I have that reports the exhumation of the corpses at St James and their transferral to Christchurch. It also states that most were in good repair with the exception of Thomas Hargreaves', whose coffin was re-shelled and left where it was in the vault.

Bob Dobson 20-07-2011 19:02

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Rev Logan, recently retired vicar of Ch Ch, is likely to back up Walter's thoughts on the matter. He may know more. Still lives locally.

Retlaw 20-07-2011 20:58

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Dobson (Post 920323)
Rev Logan, recently retired vicar of Ch Ch, is likely to back up Walter's thoughts on the matter. He may know more. Still lives locally.

He is the one who lent me the burial records, he is also the one who said there would be nothing left to re-bury.
If that is so what the eck do Time Team keep find during their excavations.
Retlaw.

Retlaw 20-07-2011 21:22

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 920289)
Whether the corpses were removed or not the Headstones most definitely have been and these were historical evidences that should have remained at the church. I understand there was quite a huge memorial headstone dedicated to Robert Hargreaves, one of the major benefactors to Christchurch and its day school.

I will scan the newspaper clipping that I have that reports the exhumation of the corpses at St James and their transferral to Christchurch. It also states that most were in good repair with the exception of Thomas Hargreaves', whose coffin was re-shelled and left where it was in the vault.

There is nothing in the Christ Church burial records, to show any remains transferred from other places.
Atarah has pictures of Christ Church grave yard when all the grave markers were still in place, there was hardly room between graves, in fact some of the burials of young children, are shown as between known graves.
The last burial in Christ Church was in Nov 1966, Justin Wenter ex Vicar of the church.
During the 1950's there were only 10 burials + 2 cremated remains, & only 3 in the 1960's.
The grave yard was then closed for any further burials.

Retlaw

Atarah 21-07-2011 09:40

Where have all the graves gone?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Mike, we will never stop old graveyards being used for other uses. Its just what you call progress. Whats done is done!

Digressing slightly, but, as a further example, take a look at this photo. If you think about it, you will recognise its where property is now built. (once Church property) - At the time of demolitioning it, people were probably up in arms also.

Atarah 21-07-2011 09:50

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 918846)
The same applies to Christchurch. I find it unbelievable that the graves were uprooted and a children's playground created over the area :eek:


TOTALLY INCORRECT MIKE! Believe you me, the gravestones were taken away LONG LONG before a children's nursery in part of the church was even thought of. (The play area is on a small area too, not the whole grassed area). I too had misgivings when I realised what they had done. They have even put tarmac over an area, where as a kid, I played on the old gravestones, but ... unfortunately its happened, so .......

Mikejoed 26-07-2011 11:52

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
1 Attachment(s)
I visited Christchurch Sunday morning gone. Whilst there I spoke at length with a former deacon who was most helpful.

It seems as part of the Church's new modern image they have made several changes in recent years. looking at some old photos inside the church I noticed that not only had they removed the gravestones they have also removed the memorial plaques that were on the walls inside the church.

Retlaw, I have the greatest respect for you but I do wish you wouldn't keep refuting my report on re-internments at Christchurch. I am only repeating what I have read in the attached newspaper clipping from the library. [Hope the upload shows I've never attempted this before].

Amongst the photos inside the church there was one that clearly showed headstones, some quite big, in the area where the childrens play ground is now. The former Deacon suggested the grave stones were laid flat and covered up with soil on the site. This doesn't satisfactorily explain what happened to the monuments, such as the huge one dedicated to Robert Hargreaves and referred to in R S Crossley's writings. I suggested they could have placed the headstones around the church walls so that anyone seeking information for their family tree could still see them. However, they were afraid they might fall over on someone and rather than respect the memory of those who had contributed to the upkeep of the church in past years by securing them to the walls they prefferred to just bury them. Utterly disgraceful. Without such people in the past there would be no Christchurch. Easy come, easy go I suppose for some.

Of course times move on Atarah and as the Deacon rightly corrected me 'The Church is there for God's glory as a place of worship to Him, not to man. That it is a church and not a museum'. However, people carrying out ancestry searches rely quite heavily on churches as places of accurate record keeping. In the case of Christchurch they will now have to hike to the records office of Lancashire County offices in preston.

The only evidence I found left to the Hargreaves family support of Christchurch is in one of the stain glass windows which was dedicated to the memory of Robert and Louise Hargreaves by their daughter louisa.

I'll perhaps find out where Rev Logan lives, Bob, and enquire with him as to the desecration of the graves at Christchurch.

Retlaw 26-07-2011 12:47

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 921324)
I visited Christchurch Sunday morning gone. Whilst there I spoke at length with a former deacon who was most helpful.

It seems as part of the Church's new modern image they have made several changes in recent years. looking at some old photos inside the church I noticed that not only had they removed the gravestones they have also removed the memorial plaques that were on the walls inside the church.

Retlaw, I have the greatest respect for you but I do wish you wouldn't keep refuting my report on re-internments at Christchurch. I am only repeating what I have read in the attached newspaper clipping from the library. [Hope the upload shows I've never attempted this before].

Amongst the photos inside the church there was one that clearly showed headstones, some quite big, in the area where the childrens play ground is now. The former Deacon suggested the grave stones were laid flat and covered up with soil on the site. This doesn't satisfactorily explain what happened to the monuments, such as the huge one dedicated to Robert Hargreaves and referred to in R S Crossley's writings. I suggested they could have placed the headstones around the church walls so that anyone seeking information for their family tree could still see them. However, they were afraid they might fall over on someone and rather than respect the memory of those who had contributed to the upkeep of the church in past years by securing them to the walls they prefferred to just bury them. Utterly disgraceful. Without such people in the past there would be no Christchurch. Easy come, easy go I suppose for some.

Of course times move on Atarah and as the Deacon rightly corrected me 'The Church is there for God's glory as a place of worship to Him, not to man. That it is a church and not a museum'. However, people carrying out ancestry searches rely quite heavily on churches as places of accurate record keeping. In the case of Christchurch they will now have to hike to the records office of Lancashire County offices in preston.

The only evidence I found left to the Hargreaves family support of Christchurch is in one of the stain glass windows which was dedicated to the memory of Robert and Louise Hargreaves by their daughter louisa.

I'll perhaps find out where Rev Logan lives, Bob, and enquire with him as to the desecration of the graves at Christchurch.

When you started this thread, you made it appear as if it those reburials had hapened in the past few years, now the news cutting shows a date of 1874.
There is nothing in the Christ Church records to show any burials/reburials in the mid 1800's on any of the names mentioned, Grace, Arthur, Charles & Sarah Hargreaves. There is no mention of them in the burial book or the burial register.
As for the grave stones being laid flat and covered with grass, no way, I've lived across from the church for near 50 years, those stones, the supporting pillars etc were removed. As for asking Kevin Logan, the grave stones had gone long before he came to the church, George Storey the previous vicar would be the one to speak to.
Where your mysterious Hargreaves went to will have to remain a mystery, Have your asked yourself, why would they remove the remains of just 4 Hargreaves, & put one back, then move the 4 to Christ Church, they could have just reburied them at St James.
Retlaw

Retlaw 26-07-2011 13:22

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 921324)
Retlaw, I have the greatest respect for you but I do wish you wouldn't keep refuting my report on re-internments at Christchurch. I am only repeating what I have read in the attached newspaper clipping from the library. [Hope the upload shows I've never attempted this before].

I am not refuting your report, I work from documentry evidence, those burial registers for Christ Church are documents recording all the burials, and internments, if your newspaper report doesn't agree with official records, then which are you going to accept. A local chip wrapper. There should also be further records as in Bishops Transcripts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 921324)
However, people carrying out ancestry searches rely quite heavily on churches as places of accurate record keeping. In the case of Christchurch they will now have to hike to the records office of Lancashire County offices in Preston.

There is a copy of all my work on that church in Accrington Library

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 921324)
The only evidence I found left to the Hargreaves family support of Christchurch is in one of the stain glass windows which was dedicated to the memory of Robert and Louise Hargreaves by their daughter Louisa.

The two people that stained glass window refers to are.
Robert Hargreaves age 45 of Bank House buried 31-5-1854.
Louisa Hargreaves age 77 of 53 Porchester Terrace, London, buried 13-1-1894.
They are not the same Hargreaves's family buried in St James.
There were several prominent Hargreaves family's in Accrington back then.
Retlaw.

Mikejoed 28-07-2011 15:16

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Retlaw, I am bewildered as to why you appear hell bent on proving I and everyone else, including newspaper reports wrong and only your good self reliably correct. You are clearly a stubborn owd coot and so stuck in yer ways you have this air of misguided authority that you are the only reliable source of information on Accrington History. When people become 'Unteachable' they've probably never learnt owt in the first place. One very good reason why I would never rely or put my trust in anything you have written.

Was the newspaper having a slack news day and made the entire episode up? I'm sure they didn't. And I wonder how much of newspaper information you have relied upon in your research over the years. Bet it weren't chip wrapper then!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 921346)
The two people that stained glass window refers to are.
Robert Hargreaves age 45 of Bank House buried 31-5-1854.
Louisa Hargreaves age 77 of 53 Porchester Terrace, London, buried 13-1-1894.
They are not the same Hargreaves's family buried in St James.
There were several prominent Hargreaves family's in Accrington back then.
Retlaw.

Somehow I doubt that Louisa had parents who were separated by 32 years as your post suggests! I know only too well that there were at least two main families of Hargreaves in the Accrington area, however, take a look at the attached copy of the Thomas Hargreaves pedigreee [copied from Josie R Green's excellent book on Oak Hill] and you can clearly see his son Robert married to Louise and their daughter Louisa. The stain glass windows in Christchurch for St Paul and Appollos were dedicated by Louisa in memory of her Parents Robert and Louise. And yes, if you look at the attached pedigree you can see they are very definitley part of the same Hargreaves dynasty. Robert Hargreaves was Benjamin Hargreaves younger brother and Louisa his niece. The same John Hargreaves who married Grace and are mentioned in the newspaper clipping that you disparage as mere chip wrapper, are outlined in black and you will notice the date of death for Grace is the same as on the Hargreaves Pedigree.

You really should get your facts right Retlaw. I wonder how many others you have bullied into submission to accepting your incorrect data. Not this one ;)

Unfortunately due to the MS Word constraints on 100 Kbs on this forum I am unable to post the Hargreaves Pedigree right now as it 545 KBS. However, I will change it into a JPEG image and post it tomorrow.

Retlaw 28-07-2011 15:47

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 921911)
Retlaw, I am bewildered as to why you appear hell bent on proving I and everyone else, including newspaper reports wrong and only your good self reliably correct. You are clearly a stubborn owd coot and so stuck in yer ways you have this air of misguided authority that you are the only reliable source of information on Accrington History.

I will repeat again for your benefit.
There is nothing in the Christ Church burial records, to show any remains transferred from other places.
They are the facts.
I'm not trying to bully you into believing any thing, believe what you wish.
I know that you have only been interested in Accrington's History for a short time, and you have much to learn, but believing every thing you read in newspapers, as opposed to official documents, well carry on then.
I have several 1000 digital photographs of local newspapers, and the number of errors regarding solders details runs into the hundreds, I always check with more than one source, usually official records before I believe a newspaper report

Retlaw.

Mikejoed 29-07-2011 15:00

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Alas when it came to reports on soldiers there was always room for error at the time. Imagine how difficult it must have been getting the TRUE FACTS from the front line to the folks back home.

OK, hopefully I have reduced this Hargreaves pedigree to a JPEG image that will upload and you can check my facts on this Hargreaves family tree alongside the Newspaper clipping that describes the members of the family that were reinterred at Christchurch.

Attachment 18147

garinda 29-07-2011 17:11

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 921911)
Somehow I doubt that Louisa had parents who were separated by 32 years as your post suggests!

According to Retlaw...

Robert Hargreaves age 45 of Bank House buried 31-5-1854.
Louisa Hargreaves age 77 of 53 Porchester Terrace, London, buried 13-1-1894.

Which to my reckoning would mean Robert was born in 1809, and his wife Louisa in 1817, which sounds entirely feasible.

garinda 29-07-2011 17:18

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
I thought working in the world of haute couture was a bitch fest!

I hadn't considered local history would give it a run for it's money.

Still, I suppose passion is a necessity, when making sure that the past is recorded...hopefully as accurately as possible.

garinda 29-07-2011 17:28

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 922191)
According to Retlaw...

Robert Hargreaves age 45 of Bank House buried 31-5-1854.
Louisa Hargreaves age 77 of 53 Porchester Terrace, London, buried 13-1-1894.

Which to my reckoning would mean Robert was born in 1809, and his wife Louisa in 1817, which sounds entirely feasible.

...and doesn't that make it their deaths were forty years apart, rather than 32?

:hidewall:

Retlaw 29-07-2011 17:44

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 922151)
Alas when it came to reports on soldiers there was always room for error at the time. Imagine how difficult it must have been getting the TRUE FACTS from the front line to the folks back home.

Getting the TRUE FACTS home has nothing to do with it. Proper reporting in chip wrappers is what counts.
As an example, look at the attached.
This man did not die, he spent 10 months in hospital, went back to France, was discharged in 1919.
George died in 1943 & is buried in Accy Cemetery.
He is also on Ossy War Memorial, even after they were told he didn't die.
Because they believed what was reported in the chip wrapper, & the list compiled in 1922 for Ossy Memorial.
Retlaw.

Retlaw 29-07-2011 18:08

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 922151)
OK, hopefully I have reduced this Hargreaves pedigree to a JPEG image that will upload and you can check my facts on this Hargreaves family tree alongside the Newspaper clipping that describes the members of the family that were reinterred at Christchurch.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but once again, none of the names in that news cutting are in the burial records at Christ Church.
You can wave that news cutting around as long as you like. The documentary facts disprove it.
I suggest you try Accrington Cemetery, because thats where all the re-interments from cemetery closuers have gone since Acc Cem opened.
As for St James, all the grave markes that weren't broken were laid as a paving around the church.

Retlaw.

Retlaw 29-07-2011 18:15

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 922193)
I thought working in the world of haute couture was a bitch fest!

I hadn't considered local history would give it a run for it's money.

Still, I suppose passion is a necessity, when making sure that the past is recorded...hopefully as accurately as possible.

Garry, you know me well enough now to know that, ACCURACY is the main criteria.
I work on the pricipal that if its 1/2 a thou out its scrap. I spend far more time checking the accuracy of my records, than I do recording them.
Retlaw.

garinda 29-07-2011 18:56

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 922206)
Garry, you know me well enough now to know that, ACCURACY is the main criteria.

That I do know, and appreciate.

keith higson 14-08-2011 05:27

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Mikejoed - I agree with you "Retlaw" appears to be a legend in his own mind, he could/might be correct in historical facts but really he does go on a little bit which detract from his self confessed expertise in historical facts. - perhaps he was innoculated with a gramaphone needle.

Yes "Retlaw" mistakes/errors do happen but give it a break sometimes - in closing may I pose a question "Who Phyches the Physcheologist"

steeljack 14-08-2011 05:59

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
no offense to the guy , but it seems to me he is sometimes a "bit" dogmatic in his responses, one wonders what will happen to all of his research records which he refuses to share, what will happen once he passes ...... hopefully his family will have enough room/interest somewhere to store the stuff. ;) :D :D

Retlaw 14-08-2011 12:57

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 926241)
no offense to the guy , but it seems to me he is sometimes a "bit" dogmatic in his responses, one wonders what will happen to all of his research records which he refuses to share, what will happen once he passes ...... hopefully his family will have enough room/interest somewhere to store the stuff. ;) :D :D

I don't refuse to share, I will answer any question I'm asked with documentary evidence, I don't rely on a tatty newspaper article as proof that an event happened, as I have already shown, most of the stuff I've researched is in Accrington Library, available to the library staff, not those lazy beggars who just flit from one thing to another, photocopy it, and claim they found it.
By the way most of the stuff is printed on special paper, which makes it difficult to photocopy. All my sources from which my files have been created, when I've finished with them, are also locked away in Accy libraray.
Proper research takes a lot of time, and effort to do it properly, so why should I just give it away to every Tom, Dick & Harry, who are too dim, or bone idle to find out for themselves, then don't even say thank you, when they've got what they want, I've had a hell of a lot of that sort over the past 20 or so years.

Retlaw.

Atarah 14-08-2011 14:56

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Oh dear! On a grump again are we!! Dearest Retlaw, if you have deposited your findings in the library, why is it locked away????? Who is going to benefit? Why are you collecting information, but dont wanna share it? And why are you using special paper? Whether a person photocopies or handwrites, they still end up with the information? You have me stumped!
from your pal Atarah x

garinda 14-08-2011 16:48

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
We all do sometimes form images of people on here, which are far from the truth.

I've met Retlaw a couple of times in 'real life'.

He was very friendly, helpful, and knowledgable...and more than happy to share his hard earned knowledge.

Just my impression.

Retlaw 14-08-2011 16:55

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atarah (Post 926446)
Oh dear! On a grump again are we!! Dearest Retlaw, if you have deposited your findings in the library, why is it locked away?????

To stop the numerous idiots who think they are experts on Accrington Heroes of WW1, from ripping it off.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atarah (Post 926446)
Who is going to benefit? Why are you collecting information, but dont wanna share it?

Because I promised Bill Turner I would carry on searching for his men. Try accessing Bills collection in the Library, thats locked away, on Bills instructions to stop the rip off merchants.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atarah (Post 926446)
And why are you using special paper? Whether a person photocopies or handwrites, they still end up with the information? You have me stumped!

If I can spend all the hours I do searching for & typing in the info, then they should have the courtesy of writing it out, instead of breaking the spines of books just to photocopy.

Retlaw.

cashman 14-08-2011 20:45

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 926509)
We all do sometimes form images of people on here, which are far from the truth.

I've met Retlaw a couple of times in 'real life'.

He was very friendly, helpful, and knowledgable...and more than happy to share his hard earned knowledge.

Just my impression.

Thats true, i met the geezer just the once, recently n found him very friendly, thing is i think, some just don't like straight talking, as i discovered many years ago.:D:D

mobertol 14-08-2011 22:38

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
We all have our "Raison d'etre" - Retlaw's only exchange with me has been to offer info about a possible family member from the first world war -much appreciated, especially by my mum who's researching the family tree. The kind of research he's doing , as far as i can see, is without thanks and probably is only continued because of personal interest/passsion..keep up the good work!
Am not an expert on this matter, but in Italy families rent out burial ground for a certain length of time after which the corpses are dis-interred, cleaned (by specialised old people from the community) and then placed in the ossario (bone collection) in a consacrated place. otherwise family members can be found , several generations later and made to pay ground rent and up-keep of the graves of people they never knew......

cashman 14-08-2011 22:46

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Forgot to mention as was responding to rindys comments, the geezer was a great help to me last year when i was stuck fer some info on a relation of Paris's who died in W.W.2, so all those knocking, can get stuffed fer me.

keith higson 15-08-2011 01:22

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
I hope I have'nt started a "slanging" match with my previous remarks, but whilst it appears that "Retlaw" is very thorough with his researching there are times when "The truth should not spoil a good story". I think the problem is that whilst he be correct readers get fed up when things are repated over and over and over again. Happy researching.

dusty mears 16-08-2011 18:10

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keith higson (Post 926237)
Mikejoed - I agree with you "Retlaw" appears to be a legend in his own mind, he could/might be correct in historical facts but really he does go on a little bit which detract from his self confessed expertise in historical facts. - perhaps he was innoculated with a gramaphone needle.

Yes "Retlaw" mistakes/errors do happen but give it a break sometimes - in closing may I pose a question "Who Phyches the Physcheologist"


You're having a personal comment with another user about someone who you probably dont know. I find offensive.
he's not a legend in his own mind, far from it. if he makes mistakes, he's big enough to admit it. he's spent years and years researching and quite rightly points out why should someone else come along & poach his and Bill's work.
And like me, he dont suffer fools and dont tolerate idiots
Yes his family are interested in his research and one thing's for sure, unless Father says so, it wont be made public and wont be going in Accy library !!! We're as protective of it as he is.

wallop79 16-08-2011 19:52

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 921911)
Retlaw, I am bewildered as to why you appear hell bent on proving I and everyone else, including newspaper reports wrong and only your good self reliably correct. You are clearly a stubborn owd coot and so stuck in yer ways you have this air of misguided authority that you are the only reliable source of information on Accrington History. When people become 'Unteachable' they've probably never learnt owt in the first place. One very good reason why I would never rely or put my trust in anything you have written.

Was the newspaper having a slack news day and made the entire episode up? I'm sure they didn't. And I wonder how much of newspaper information you have relied upon in your research over the years. Bet it weren't chip wrapper then!

You really should get your facts right Retlaw. I wonder how many others you have bullied into submission to accepting your incorrect data. Not this one ;)


I have typed up a lot of information for my father Retlaw, and I can assure you that I have seen a lot of mistakes that the Accy Observer made in their reports. Saying someone has been killed in action, when they were in fact in hospital, given dates of someone's death, when a letter has then been received by the family from the commanding officer telling them a different date of death, so yes newspapers do make mistakes. My father after the late Bill Turner is probably the most knowledgeable about Accrington History, he has spent years & years researching The Pals, along with other local interests, until you have put in the same amount of hours as he has then you can start slating him. As he has commented he uses more than once source to try and back up findings, he doesn't just read the chip wrapper like yourself, get yer head in a few more books etc before you start calling him. (Stubborn he might be, but when he's reyt he's reyt, and when he's wrong he'll acknowledge that)

Retlaw 16-08-2011 22:30

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Just been rereading that news paper article about reburials in Christ Church.
The heading is Accy Observer 1988

When was that article actually printed in the newspaper.
I've never seen an Accrington Observer dated 1874.
Now read the article carefully, note the dates when the event is supposed to have taken place.

In 1874 the coffins in the vault in St James's were opened.
Next bit
The necessary facilities were secured 35 years ago for reburial in Christ Church.

Now comes the best bit take 35 years from 1874 & you end up in 1839.
Christ Church wasn't opened until 1841. So how could permission be obtained for the use of something that didn't exist.
Surely some one being so called important as a Hargreaves, would have been in the Burial Records, if the events actually occured.

Since Accy Cem opened in the 1860's, all re-internments are suposed to go there.
Retlaw.

Mikejoed 17-08-2011 10:32

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
3 Attachment(s)
You really mustn’t be so bombastic in your opinions, Retlaw. It’s one thing to be confident in your own accuracy but to claim everyone else is wrong and you are the only one that’s right is nowt less than sheer arrogance. I am aware of the many hours of research you have put in and even as one who is only just starting out, I can and do appreciate your endeavours. I do, however, think it is not just sheer selfishness but downright criminal that your findings should remain under lock and key. What on earth is the point of all your research if all you want to do with the findings is to lock it away where no future generations can benefit from all your hard work. I am aware that you have been a tremendous assistance to folks who have been researching their family tree. And respect for your reputation as a historian, particularly in the field of the Accrington Pals is of proven repute, as cantankerous as you can be. I just wish you would get down off your high horse for a minute and don’t just read what I am saying but rationalise the evidence with some common sense.

You insist in saying there is no relationship with the Hargreaves at Christchurch but the evidence is there in the stain glass windows. See attached photo. The dedication reads ‘In affectionate remembrance of my father & mother Robert & Louisa Hargreaves of Bank House Accrington – who are buried in this churchyard this window is dedicated by their only surviving daughter Louisa Grace Robertson Aikman’.

R S Crossley’s ‘Accrington Captains of Industry’ is as accurate an account you’ll find anywhere on Accrington’s history. He was respected by and worked closely with Richard Ainsworth, another highly esteemed Accrington historian. Excerpts from Crossley’s book were reproduced in The Observer in 1988. See attached entry about Thomas Hargreaves. Look closely and you will see in the third column a reference to Robert Hargreaves who married Louisa. Now look at the ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’ attachment and you can see under ‘TAB III’ a Robert Hargreaves of Bank House who married Louisa and their third child was ‘Louisa Grace’ who married ‘Colonel Francis Robertson Aikman’. How much more evidence do you need as unequivocal proof of the Hargreaves’ connection with Christchurch?

When I suggested that newspapers were renowned for making errors during the war I was in fact agreeing with you! Doh! However, getting accurate news from the front line back home was no easy task and was invariably subject to inaccuracies. The old adage of ‘Send reinforcements we’re going to advance’ becoming ‘Send three and four pence we’re going to a dance’ was a humorous example of how easy it was for errors to be made when passing on information to and from the front line. And who could blame them in the midst of a heated battle. So, please don’t be so unreasonable with the press when they did get it wrong. I agree it must have been devastating for a family to read of their son’s demise whilst he was still very much alive but crap happens in war.

When it comes to the newspaper article about the re-internments of members of the Hargreaves family in Christchurch, which you refuse to accept as fact, I am left with the quandary of trying to imagine why on earth would the press publish such an article that not only gave accurate names and dates of Hargreaves family members, as you can check against the attached ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’, what sense would such an account make. Are you seriously suggesting they invented the entire episode? I know you have been through the Christchurch records but to imagine they never made errors or omissions is to be more naïve than I can be, and you’ve been at this historical research business for more years than I could ever hope to match. You suggest that Christchurch wasn’t opened until 1841 meaning the contract to reserve grave sites would have to have been made 2 years earlier in 1839. I see no problem with that. When looking for funding of the church building, that is, before building commenced, such contracts would be commonplace by benefactors with the church. And whilst the church may not have opened its doors until 1841, work on building it may well have started two years earlier. It was a huge project and without the machinery available to today’s builders. I will look into this more thoroughly and report back to you, Retlaw. Unlike you, I believe that history belongs to everyone and our findings should be shared. Not everyone who has a deep interest in our local history has the time, perhaps not even the wisdom, to carry out the research that you have been privileged to successfully do.

I am currently preparing to interview a couple of Accrington’s senior citizens. One is 96 and the other is just 76. Both are absolute treasure chests of memories about Accrington and I am looking forward to the amazing privilege of recording their reminiscences on DVD so that future generations can learn about the life and times of Accrington folks in times gone by. You would be an ideal candidate for such a project, Retlaw, if it weren’t for the fact that you would rather selfishly keep your knowledge to yourself :(

Retlaw 17-08-2011 12:50

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
You really mustn’t be so bombastic in your opinions, Retlaw. It’s one thing to be confident in your own accuracy but to claim everyone else is wrong and you are the only one that’s right is nowt less than sheer arrogance. I am aware of the many hours of research you have put in and even as one who is only just starting out, I can and do appreciate your endeavours. I do, however, think it is not just sheer selfishness but downright criminal that your findings should remain under lock and key.

I can do as I please with my research, if the criminality is in preventing so called upstart local historians from acquiring it, and using it as if it was there own work, then so be it, if its so important to you, then do as I did look for it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
What on earth is the point of all your research if all you want to do with the findings is to lock it away where no future generations can benefit from all your hard work. I am aware that you have been a tremendous assistance to folks who have been researching their family tree. And respect for your reputation as a historian, particularly in the field of the Accrington Pals is of proven repute, as cantankerous as you can be. I just wish you would get down off your high horse for a minute and don’t just read what I am saying but rationalise the evidence with some common sense.

I have reviewed it with common sense, if as you go on to say that the Hargreaves’ s were reburied in Christ Church, why did it take 35 years to implement. The facts are there is no record of such an event 1874, there were 69 burials in Christ Church that year, not one of them was a Hargreaves, out of all those, why should they not be recorded.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
You insist in saying there is no relationship with the Hargreaves at Christchurch but the evidence is there in the stain glass windows. See attached photo. The dedication reads ‘In affectionate remembrance of my father & mother Robert & Louisa Hargreaves of Bank House Accrington – who are buried in this churchyard this window is dedicated by their only surviving daughter Louisa Grace Robertson Aikman’.

I have never disputed the fact that they had strong connections with Christ Church.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
R S Crossley’s ‘Accrington Captains of Industry’ is as accurate an account you’ll find anywhere on Accrington’s history. He was respected by and worked closely with Richard Ainsworth, another highly esteemed Accrington historian.

That’s a laugh no one has ever found proof of his ramblings
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
Excerpts from Crossley’s book were reproduced in The Observer in 1988. See attached entry about Thomas Hargreaves. Look closely and you will see in the third column a reference to Robert Hargreaves who married Louisa. Now look at the ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’ attachment and you can see under ‘TAB III’ a Robert Hargreaves of Bank House who married Louisa and their third child was ‘Louisa Grace’ who married ‘Colonel Francis Robertson Aikman’. How much more evidence do you need as unequivocal proof of the Hargreaves’ connection with Christchurch?

I have never questioned the family tree of those Hargreaves’ s
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
When it comes to the newspaper article about the re-internments of members of the Hargreaves family in Christchurch, which you refuse to accept as fact, I am left with the quandary of trying to imagine why on earth would the press publish such an article that not only gave accurate names and dates of Hargreaves family members, as you can check against the attached ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’, what sense would such an account make. Are you seriously suggesting they invented the entire episode? I know you have been through the Christchurch records but to imagine they never made errors or omissions is to be more naïve than I can be, and you’ve been at this historical research business for more years than I could ever hope to match. You suggest that Christchurch wasn’t opened until 1841 meaning the contract to reserve grave sites would have to have been made 2 years earlier in 1839. I see no problem with that. When looking for funding of the church building, that is, before building commenced, such contracts would be commonplace by benefactors with the church. And whilst the church may not have opened its doors until 1841, work on building it may well have started two years earlier. It was a huge project and without the machinery available to today’s builders. I will look into this more thoroughly and report back to you, Retlaw. Unlike you, I believe that history belongs to everyone and our findings should be shared. Not everyone who has a deep interest in our local history has the time, perhaps not even the wisdom, to carry out the research that you have been privileged to successfully do.

I am not in any way privileged, I have a job to do, and I will do it no matter what, the only person I need to satisfy is me. Not you, or any one else, and if you don’t like it, tough.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
I am currently preparing to interview a couple of Accrington’s senior citizens. One is 96 and the other is just 76. Both are absolute treasure chests of memories about Accrington and I am looking forward to the amazing privilege of recording their reminiscences on DVD so that future generations can learn about the life and times of Accrington folks in times gone by. You would be an ideal candidate for such a project, Retlaw, if it weren’t for the fact that you would rather selfishly keep your knowledge to yourself

We already had a woman doing that some years ago, all her tapes are now supposedly in the sound archives.
I have all my father’s reminiscences on tape, & in writing, he was born in 1904. Plus my own memories of what it was like to grow up in the 1930’s, knowing some of the survivors of WW1, growing up with their children, talking to them about their experiences, which they would never divulge to their kin. I just wish tape recorders had been available in those days.
Before you launch yourself into your projects, I would suggest you spend some time in the library, and check that it’s not already been done.

Retlaw

Retlaw 17-08-2011 20:23

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
I am currently preparing to interview a couple of Accrington’s senior citizens. One is 96 and the other is just 76. Both are absolute treasure chests of memories about Accrington and I am looking forward to the amazing privilege of recording their reminiscences on DVD so that future generations can learn about the life and times of Accrington folks in times gone by. You would be an ideal candidate for such a project, Retlaw, if it weren’t for the fact that you would rather selfishly keep your knowledge to yourself :(

I once listed to a record of a bloke reminising about his time with the Accrington pals, and who he joined up with, none of the men he spoke about were who he said they were, or served when he said they did.
Documetary evidence proved him wrong.
Whats in my head is my business, my memories are my own, I wold need to live as long again to be able to record them, why I should let you root about in my head beats me, your the one thats selfish, thinking you can have every thing you want, as and when you think fit.
Retlaw.

wallop79 17-08-2011 20:40

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Who the hell do you think you are?? How dare you state:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
I do, however, think it is not just sheer selfishness but downright criminal that your findings should remain under lock and key. What on earth is the point of all your research if all you want to do with the findings is to lock it away where no future generations can benefit from all your hard work.



The point (which I still dont think your understanding, even though this has already been pointed out in No:31) is my father is doing this research for himself and one other person Bill, whom he promised that he would carry on his hard work, its not being done for the likes of you & the rest of the plagiarists.

What on earth gives a jumped up prat like you the right to dictate & slander my father, have you ever met him? Many people on here, and also through requests from people leaving messages for him through Accy Library have been given information from my father when asked. All he was trying to do was help you by pointing out that your information couldn't be correct.

Now as you have already stated you are an amateur historian, so keep at it and when you have got half as much info as my father has then maybe you will share it with the world. It might sink in at that point that all the hard work that you have put in is for nothing if just handed over to idiots like yourself who cannot be bothered finding things out the hard way, and just want everything handed over to them (the easy way) Now I suggest you get back on your horse & ride out of town

cashman 17-08-2011 20:51

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Wallop, wallop, yeh will get accused of being in the clique, ........see accyweb meet thread from page 7.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Retlaw 17-08-2011 21:05

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 927444)
Wallop, wallop, yeh will get accused of being in the clique, ........see accyweb meet thread from page 7.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Higher Cashy.
Already seen that, enjoyed it.
What I'm waiting for is when he gets a shovel and starts digging down Black Abbey, for the legendary tunnel that never went to Whalley Abbey.
Just don't tell him that Atarah, a member of the local history society, myself, and several others, fully explored, and surveyed that area back in the 1980's.
Plans and pictures are in Accy Library.
Retlaw.

wallop79 17-08-2011 21:24

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 927444)
Wallop, wallop, yeh will get accused of being in the clique, ........see accyweb meet thread from page 7.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Two words which can be made into one Pil lock!! and he's a prize one after reading that, anyway am I not automatically added to the clique by proxy as Retlaw's offspring? :tongueout

Neil 18-08-2011 01:46

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 927444)
Wallop, wallop, yeh will get accused of being in the clique, ........see accyweb meet thread from page 7.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Not sure about that clique but there are a few on here in the "how to mess up quoting and post hard to read horrible font posts"

I think I have spent more time fixing this thread than you lot have having a tantrum at each other :rolleyes::D

Retlaw 18-08-2011 11:41

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 927491)
Not sure about that clique but there are a few on here in the "how to mess up quoting and post hard to read horrible font posts"

I think I have spent more time fixing this thread than you lot have having a tantrum at each other :rolleyes::D

Thanks Neil.
Beautifull job, well done, keep up the good work.
Retlaw.

steeljack 20-08-2011 07:02

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Guess its to be hoped the Grandkids/Greatgrandkids dont bin all the stuff after he's passed on while they are looking for the policys. (sorry for being flipant)
Sorry Retlaw , but who are you doing all this work/research for ? if it's for yourself no problem, in that case stop telling everyone about it and saying everyone else is an 'idiot/fool/amatuer' and treating them with disrespect ......... if your doing it as a service/historical research project for the folks of of Accrington and area don't keep it a locked away like its some Vatican secret , everyone appreciates your work, but be prepared and open enough to other views , disscusion and argument
Just my thoughts and many thanks for your input to earlier enquiries ;) :D

PS. have no idea about plagerism arguments about the" Accrington Pals /Bill Turner book " mentioned many times on Accy web , just know I have it in my bookcase on my military history shelf ;)

wallop79 20-08-2011 08:18

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 927929)
Guess its to be hoped the Grandkids/Greatgrandkids dont bin all the stuff after he's passed on while they are looking for the policys. (sorry for being flipant)
Sorry Retlaw , but who are you doing all this work/research for ? if it's for yourself no problem, in that case stop telling everyone about it and saying everyone else is an 'idiot/fool/amatuer' and treating them with disrespect ......... if your doing it as a service/historical research project for the folks of of Accrington and area don't keep it a locked away like its some Vatican secret , everyone appreciates your work, but be prepared and open enough to other views , disscusion and argument
Just my thoughts and many thanks for your input to earlier enquiries ;) :D

PS. have no idea about plagerism arguments about the" Accrington Pals /Bill Turner book " mentioned many times on Accy web , just know I have it in my bookcase on my military history shelf ;)

Again another who just doesn't get it, how many more times does it have to be said, HE IS DOING THIS FOR HIMSELF & BILL TURNER, what he does with HIS information is HIS business alone, not for the likes of yourself, mikejoey or anyone else to decided, as for the grandkids binning stuff, he's not 2 yet so it'll be me & my sister looking for the policies :tongueout

steeljack 25-08-2011 06:53

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wallop79 (Post 927937)
Again another who just doesn't get it, how many more times does it have to be said, HE IS DOING THIS FOR HIMSELF & BILL TURNER, what he does with HIS information is HIS business alone, not for the likes of yourself, mikejoey or anyone else to decided, as for the grandkids binning stuff, he's not 2 yet so it'll be me & my sister looking for the policies :tongueout

sorry it my post came across wrong and flippant , no one has no more respect for 'Retlaw' than myself , he's helped me out in the past with other historical stuff , was just commenting that at times he "seems' to be a bit of a 'curmudgeon' (sp?) really helpful to individual requests , but anything that has to go into the 'public domain' is verboten ,
Once again sorry if I have upset anyone , no offence was intended , just don't get the hostility (bad karma) , the local media refers/quotes to him as a "local Historian '
best regards :confused:

hargreavesconnection 20-05-2015 22:35

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed (Post 927286)
You really mustn’t be so bombastic in your opinions, Retlaw. It’s one thing to be confident in your own accuracy but to claim everyone else is wrong and you are the only one that’s right is nowt less than sheer arrogance. I am aware of the many hours of research you have put in and even as one who is only just starting out, I can and do appreciate your endeavours. I do, however, think it is not just sheer selfishness but downright criminal that your findings should remain under lock and key. What on earth is the point of all your research if all you want to do with the findings is to lock it away where no future generations can benefit from all your hard work. I am aware that you have been a tremendous assistance to folks who have been researching their family tree. And respect for your reputation as a historian, particularly in the field of the Accrington Pals is of proven repute, as cantankerous as you can be. I just wish you would get down off your high horse for a minute and don’t just read what I am saying but rationalise the evidence with some common sense.

You insist in saying there is no relationship with the Hargreaves at Christchurch but the evidence is there in the stain glass windows. See attached photo. The dedication reads ‘In affectionate remembrance of my father & mother Robert & Louisa Hargreaves of Bank House Accrington – who are buried in this churchyard this window is dedicated by their only surviving daughter Louisa Grace Robertson Aikman’.

R S Crossley’s ‘Accrington Captains of Industry’ is as accurate an account you’ll find anywhere on Accrington’s history. He was respected by and worked closely with Richard Ainsworth, another highly esteemed Accrington historian. Excerpts from Crossley’s book were reproduced in The Observer in 1988. See attached entry about Thomas Hargreaves. Look closely and you will see in the third column a reference to Robert Hargreaves who married Louisa. Now look at the ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’ attachment and you can see under ‘TAB III’ a Robert Hargreaves of Bank House who married Louisa and their third child was ‘Louisa Grace’ who married ‘Colonel Francis Robertson Aikman’. How much more evidence do you need as unequivocal proof of the Hargreaves’ connection with Christchurch?

When I suggested that newspapers were renowned for making errors during the war I was in fact agreeing with you! Doh! However, getting accurate news from the front line back home was no easy task and was invariably subject to inaccuracies. The old adage of ‘Send reinforcements we’re going to advance’ becoming ‘Send three and four pence we’re going to a dance’ was a humorous example of how easy it was for errors to be made when passing on information to and from the front line. And who could blame them in the midst of a heated battle. So, please don’t be so unreasonable with the press when they did get it wrong. I agree it must have been devastating for a family to read of their son’s demise whilst he was still very much alive but crap happens in war.

When it comes to the newspaper article about the re-internments of members of the Hargreaves family in Christchurch, which you refuse to accept as fact, I am left with the quandary of trying to imagine why on earth would the press publish such an article that not only gave accurate names and dates of Hargreaves family members, as you can check against the attached ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’, what sense would such an account make. Are you seriously suggesting they invented the entire episode? I know you have been through the Christchurch records but to imagine they never made errors or omissions is to be more naïve than I can be, and you’ve been at this historical research business for more years than I could ever hope to match. You suggest that Christchurch wasn’t opened until 1841 meaning the contract to reserve grave sites would have to have been made 2 years earlier in 1839. I see no problem with that. When looking for funding of the church building, that is, before building commenced, such contracts would be commonplace by benefactors with the church. And whilst the church may not have opened its doors until 1841, work on building it may well have started two years earlier. It was a huge project and without the machinery available to today’s builders. I will look into this more thoroughly and report back to you, Retlaw. Unlike you, I believe that history belongs to everyone and our findings should be shared. Not everyone who has a deep interest in our local history has the time, perhaps not even the wisdom, to carry out the research that you have been privileged to successfully do.

I am currently preparing to interview a couple of Accrington’s senior citizens. One is 96 and the other is just 76. Both are absolute treasure chests of memories about Accrington and I am looking forward to the amazing privilege of recording their reminiscences on DVD so that future generations can learn about the life and times of Accrington folks in times gone by. You would be an ideal candidate for such a project, Retlaw, if it weren’t for the fact that you would rather selfishly keep your knowledge to yourself :(

I am currently doing research on the Hargreaves. Would you be please kind as to forward the newspaper articles about their re-interments at Christchurch?

Jodie

hargreavesconnection 20-05-2015 22:41

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
I did find the newspaper article I inquired about. I have another question - is St. James Church still standing?

Atarah 21-05-2015 06:16

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
St James most certainly is still standing, in the centre of our town, across from Accrington Library.

Accyexplorer 21-05-2015 09:14

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hargreavesconnection (Post 1141199)
I have another question - is St. James Church still standing?

Yes :)

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...rch-66516.html

hargreavesconnection 21-05-2015 12:14

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Thank you.

I am visiting the UK for my annual visit and this time focusing on Accrington area for a little part of it getting grave and church photos.

Jonathan Hargreaves (son of Thomas and Nancy) married Anna Maria Harland, my ggg grandmother's niece. Of course, their son went on to marry Alice Liddell.

I am hoping both Christ Church and St James will be open during the day.

I understand Arden House was demolished but have been informed some of the ruins remain. Any one know how to get to these so I can photograph or is it on private property?

Thanks!
Jodie

Atarah 21-05-2015 13:38

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Christ Church and St James still exist of course, although Christ Church is not the church it once was. Now known as Trinity Community Church. I believe all the stained glass windows are still intact although there may be a "new floor" separating a clear view of the windows (installed when a child's nursery was opened upstairs in the church). If you cant get a clear view, I have a copy of the windows (which a local photographer Garth Dawson took many years back). The ruins of Arden Hall? Not very many are left I am afraid. The churches, I imagine, you would have to make contact with the vicars, although I do know the email for the lovely new vicar of St James (who I am pleased to say, appears to be very interested in family/local history).
There are also many cuttings in Accrington Library regarding Reginald Hargreaves and his marriage to Alice Liddell. Oak Hill Park, which he sold to Accrington Corporation , I am pleased to say is still in existence.
The "ruins" (and they ARE ruins) of Arden Hall can easily be seen, but you will need a vivid imagination!

hargreavesconnection 21-05-2015 15:14

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Thank you for that information. If you could provide directions to the Arden House ruins, that would help.

Is Bank House still standing?

Jodie

Atarah 21-05-2015 17:21

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi - Bank House went many years ago c1952. In 1953 new property opened on the site, known as Queen Elizabeth Crescent, but some of the old walls are still standing. Many photos exist - call in Accrington Library on your visit.
Here is a photo of Arden Hall, will help you visit the site if you like when you come over.

hargreavesconnection 21-05-2015 17:42

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Great! I look forward to meeting you. Had I known all this about Accrington when I visited Oak Hill in 2012, I would've spent more time in the area! I come over every year to bike the Ride n Stride. I feel it is important to do something for the churches as they are a wealth of history and information!

Jodie

Thanks for the photo!

Bob Dobson 21-05-2015 19:12

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Jodie -don't call in the library without first telling the staff - john.simpson@lancashire.gov.uk- you are coming. John will get stuff out for you to look at. Please make sure that he retains your address, as so often questions arise about the family, and you may be the one able to answer them. It would be most useful to have a pedigree chart in the library. I am researching street names - so many of them have a Hargreaves connection. Some years ago, I bid on some plans showing Hargreaves-owned land in the town, but I didn't bid enough and now kick myself.

Barrie Yates 21-05-2015 19:42

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atarah (Post 1141246)
Hi - Bank House went many years ago c1952. In 1953 new property opened on the site, known as Queen Elizabeth Crescent, but some of the old walls are still standing. Many photos exist - call in Accrington Library on your visit.
Here is a photo of Arden Hall, will help you visit the site if you like when you come over.

My memories of Arden Hall are a big apple tree, big red juicy apples, on the side facing the lane up from Plantation Street and a nuisance of a dog - late '40s

hargreavesconnection 21-05-2015 22:45

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
I so know that feeling! I have been tracking down a portrait that was sold at an auction (Hartshorne) of my ggg uncle. Auction house does not even have a catalogue!

Would the library have photos of the other family homes - Broad Oak and Oakenshaw?

Jodie

Atarah 22-05-2015 05:21

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
Accrington Library will have all you could hope for, and more! Honest! :-)

Atarah 25-05-2015 09:01

Re: Where have all the graves gone?
 
1 Attachment(s)
To Hargreavesconnection. This is the type of information you can find in local churches. Not sure if this particular Hargreaves connects to you, but you will enjoy searching in the church I am sure (this is in St James, Accrington)


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