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bullseyebarb 20-10-2006 20:31
Re: Help with English History!
 
The American colonists were not without supporters in the British government. Whig MP Edmund Burke for one, who wrote "Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents" in 1770. He and others thought the grievances legitimate. Prior to 1763, there had been a sort of benign neglect by the British when it came to the American Colonies. However, after the French and Indian Wars, the British government found itself in debt and wished to raise taxes. Prime Minister George Grenville calculated that the average British taxpayer paid 26 shillings annually, whereas a British subject in Massachusetts paid one shilling per year. British landowners, (who controlled Parliament), already paid a tax of 20% and refused to pay more. So commenced the little "stand-off", which led to the American Revolution. The colonists did not want taxation without direct representation.

WarsawPact 20-10-2006 20:56
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
How did the English common man feel about the Scottish?
As far back as recorded history goes, Northern England has been subject to raids from north of the border.
I'm sure the average English soldier would see it as quite a legitimate enterprise to try and stamp those raids out.

From a geo-political point of view too, most of Englands borders are protected by the sea. Little wonder that from the early Middle Ages to the last of the Jacobite Rebellions in 1745, our only land border was seen as a potential back door for any Continental aggressor - and political, military and economic efforts were made to secure Scotland against alliance with our stronger neighbours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
I guess the same goes for the average young Englishman fighting the colonists. Did the English common man feel sorry for the colonists or consider them ungrateful wretches? (Personally, I felt bad for the English in this one!)
British Empire vs Revolting Colonials.
Having recently fought an expensive war to protect the Colonies against the French and their Indian allies, I'd have thought that the average redcoat would think it right that the colonists should pay for their own security- that's if they thought much about that sort of thing. Independant thought wasn't much encouraged in European armies of the time. I think they tended to fight for something (ie. the King and the Regiment) rather than against anything or anyone in particular.

SPUGGIE J 20-10-2006 21:12
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarsawPact
As far back as recorded history goes, Northern England has been subject to raids from north of the border.
I'm sure the average English soldier would see it as quite a legitimate enterprise to try and stamp those raids out.
The border raids worked both ways and usually the target was cattle and sheep. These raids were part and parcel of everyday live and in a odd sort of way could be classed as a game if a somewhat serious one at that.

SPUGGIE J 20-10-2006 21:22
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarsawPact
From a geo-political point of view too, most of Englands borders are protected by the sea. Little wonder that from the early Middle Ages to the last of the Jacobite Rebellions in 1745, our only land border was seen as a potential back door for any Continental aggressor - and political, military and economic efforts were made to secure Scotland against alliance with our stronger neighbours.
Yes there was alliances between the Scots and contintinental powers ie France (longest was with Portugal) and all the Scots did was to take advantage of the political situation for their own ends and that was the norm for years. England in the end able to "buy" Scotland after Scotlands failed attempt at a South American Colony left it bankrupt.

As for the "45" rebellion if BPC had had the men and support that was needed from Scotland andFrance when he reached Derby parliment and the seat of power could have been Edinburgh. At the time the king, govenment the wealthy etc were ready to abandon London but were saved by the disilusionment amongst the Scottish ranks who after all the empty promises returned home (BPC's arrogence and porkies didnt help ) to their own homes.

WarsawPact 20-10-2006 21:59
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J
The border raids worked both ways and usually the target was cattle and sheep. These raids were part and parcel of everyday live and in a odd sort of way could be classed as a game if a somewhat serious one at that.
I completely agree with you (I've read George MacDonald Frasier's excellent book about the Border Reivers - "The Steel Bonnets").

Perhaps 'raids' was the wrong word.
I was thinking more of all of the attacks by Scottish armies into Northern England, at various stages in history, from the Battle of the Standard in 1138 through to the '45 (and beyond - to Wembley in the 1970's ;)).

It seems to have become fashionable to see Scotland as the victim of English aggression throughout history.
From an English perspective, that's certainly not been the case.

cmonstanley 20-10-2006 22:12
Re: Help with English History!
 
;) ahh dont forget there were scots that were against having alliances with france and other foreign countries ie the coventers that were mainly from the west of scotland and they sided with the english cause they were persicuted by their own country cause they werent catholics and the reformation was just happening .most wars after 1314 was just about religion and class :cool: plus most founders of the american revolution were scottish and ulster scots ...

garinda 20-10-2006 23:28
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
Yeah, I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that Braveheart was a completely accurate portrail. Still, do the Scots/Irish have a "right" to dislike the English? Do they more hate the English elite/politicos or just the English in general.
Everyone hates the English.:o

We are proud of the fact that the peoples of the world are jealous of our superiority.:D

SPUGGIE J 20-10-2006 23:36
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
Everyone hates the English.:o

We are proud of the fact that the peoples of the world are jealous of our superiority.:D
Does that include the English???? :p

I believe we were overtaken in the sueriority stakes by the USA or am I out of touch again. :o

garinda 20-10-2006 23:41
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J
Does that include the English???? :p

I believe we were overtaken in the sueriority stakes by the USA or am I out of touch again. :o
No the American's fake superiority/pride is because they are ashamed that they are ex-colonials. That's why many of them collect expensive tacky dolls of our dead Royals, to ease their shame.;)

Our superiority is beyond reproach.:)

SPUGGIE J 21-10-2006 00:07
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
No the American's fake superiority/pride is because they are ashamed that they are ex-colonials. That's why many of them collect expensive tacky dolls of our dead Royals, to ease their shame.;)

Our superiority is beyond reproach.:)
The worlds number one. :)

Mind you when I look at a map of the Uk its looks like this;

Scotland is the head therefore has the brains (plenty of brainy Scots throughout history)

England is the heart and lungs (all moterway and warm air)

Wales is the belly (enough said)

N.Ireland is the consience of the UK.

cmonstanley 21-10-2006 00:09
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarsawPact
As far back as recorded history goes, Northern England has been subject to raids from north of the border.
I'm sure the average English soldier would see it as quite a legitimate enterprise to try and stamp those raids out.

From a geo-political point of view too, most of Englands borders are protected by the sea. Little wonder that from the early Middle Ages to the last of the Jacobite Rebellions in 1745, our only land border was seen as a potential back door for any Continental aggressor - and political, military and economic efforts were made to secure Scotland against alliance with our stronger neighbours.


British Empire vs Revolting Colonials.
Having recently fought an expensive war to protect the Colonies against the French and their Indian allies, I'd have thought that the average redcoat would think it right that the colonists should pay for their own security- that's if they thought much about that sort of thing. Independant thought wasn't much encouraged in European armies of the time. I think they tended to fight for something (ie. the King and the Regiment) rather than against anything or anyone in particular.
most of the redcoats were foreign or scottish mercernaries fighting for the highest bidder.....

garinda 21-10-2006 00:12
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J
The worlds number one. :)

Mind you when I look at a map of the Uk its looks like this;

Scotland is the head therefore has the brains (plenty of brainy Scots throughout history)

England is the heart and lungs (all moterway and warm air)

Wales is the belly (enough said)

N.Ireland is the consience of the UK.
But that'll make London the verruca on the toe?

Sounds about right then.:D

SPUGGIE J 21-10-2006 00:14
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonstanley
most of the redcoats were foreign or scottish mercernaries fighting for the highest bidder.....
All foriegn armies hated coming up against the Scots, because if the bagpipes didnt scare the living daylights out of them then devils in skirts did. All that highland meat and 2 veg swinging put the fear of god in em. :D

cmonstanley 21-10-2006 00:53
Re: Help with English History!
 
:D :D :D plus they never put the scottish flag on the union flag first for nothing :D :D :D

glasgow guy 21-10-2006 11:39
Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
Just finished watching Braveheart. Of course I felt pretty bad for the Scots. Is that more of an American reaction? How did the English common man feel about the Scottish?

I guess the same goes for the average young Englishman fighting the colonists. Did the English common man feel sorry for the colonists or consider them ungrateful wretches? (Personally, I felt bad for the English in this one!)

Remember, all my relatives were still over in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and Derbyshire, until the late 1800s to 1924. So I'm just curious as to how they would have felt. Kinda King/Queen right or wrong?

Thanks for any insight you can give!

Brian
bravheart whilst it might be a good film to some is quite far from the actual truth and I cringe at it when its on.. and is just the usual crap that hollywood want you to believe..they make a film about history and re-write the history to suit themselves...look at the pearl harbour film and the film about the guy who invented the code that germans couldnt use during the war...


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