Help with English History!
Just finished watching Braveheart. Of course I felt pretty bad for the Scots. Is that more of an American reaction? How did the English common man feel about the Scottish?
I guess the same goes for the average young Englishman fighting the colonists. Did the English common man feel sorry for the colonists or consider them ungrateful wretches? (Personally, I felt bad for the English in this one!) Remember, all my relatives were still over in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and Derbyshire, until the late 1800s to 1924. So I'm just curious as to how they would have felt. Kinda King/Queen right or wrong? Thanks for any insight you can give! Brian |
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Despite being born in Accrington and having local connections with Blackburn going back to the 1840s, I have Scottish/Irish ancestry and feel proudly Celtic. Although I felt that the Film had little to do with the reality of Wallace or the plight of the Scots under the yoke of the Norman English I did feel uncomfortable and somewhat disturbed by the latter events relating to Wallace’s death. Maybe it’s was the anguish of the ages, the betrayal or just a sense of sympathy for his and the plight of the Scots, I don’t know. I watched the film only once and never brought myself to watch the end of it. I still haven’t.
Colonists are like male children, eventually they get cocky and to big for their boots. The same remedy should always be applied, a swift kick up the arse and a slap now and again to remind then of their origins. |
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incidental to the main topic one also has to remember that Mel Gibson has history of making anti English films/movies , beginning with Gallipoli , the Bounty , Braveheart , the Patriot , Mel Gibson has gone out of his way to be anti-English.
So I think one can take any historical authenticity in Mel Gibson's Braveheart (producer, director and actor credits) with a pinch of salt |
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Having been an Englishman who has lived in Scotland, I was always treated with friendliness and respect, though I suspect it's not always the same welcome away from the cosmopolitan cities.
However there is a deep rooted hatred of the English, which is reinforced by the Scottish press. Everything from Culloden and Bannockburn to the Highland clearances, are brought up at every possible occasion, usually in the context of a sports match. |
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The trouble with history is that all we know is what someone else has written and in most cases the person who made the record will have had their own bias - it's rare for others to delve deeper in an attempt to look for alternatve views.
I was attracted to history purely because of this when a teacher pointed out to me (at age 10) that what he was teaching us was not necessarly fact but merely perceived opinion. We were doing the Wars of the Roses at the time and I was inspired to find out as much as I could on the subject from as many different sources as possible, something which stayed with me for years and resulted in my joining the Richard III society and having a pretty poor opinion of Shakespeare. However, as to the original question - when it comes down to England and Scotland, considering it was a Scottish king who came to the English throne how come it isn't England wanting independance from Scotland subsequently?;) Being of partly Irish descent I suppose I naturally tend to come down with the Irish side for the sympathy/empathy there. (But N.I. is an entirely different kettle of ball game if I may borrow a phrase from Keith Waterhouse.) Back to kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
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I think we should get an appology for the Romans invading England.:D
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I agree Willow with the biases. Having been raised up "north", always thought the "south" deserved every bad thing that happened to em. However, now living down here I have a whole different view, certainly more balanced. I was embarassed by my ignorance. It really hit when my parents were visiting and me mum took a fit at seeing the Confederate flag on some of the houses. "They shouldn't be allowed to have that, the stinkin rebels." My dad. always much more balanced merely stated that "it was a flag they fought and died for and have every right to fly it." |
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If however the Scots or the Irish get knocked out their fans will back anyone so long as it's NOT the English team!:engsmil: :D |
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If not for that, all this (USA) could have remained yours! |
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We had a lucky escape then!:D |
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Hell, everyone in the world (or at least all the areas of the world map that used to be coloured red in British textbooks) should hate England. We're responsible for millions of brutal deaths throughout our bleak history.
I do know that the ordinary folks of Lancashire came out en masse to support the Union in the American Civil War against the oppressive slave labour of the Confederate states. The British establishment, however, supported the South. But isn't that the way it's been for most of time - a class war. The establishment supporting the rich, the everyday people supporting the poor and oppressed. There were mass demonstrations in and around Manchester by the mill workers from all of the surrounding cotton towns. They had a close affinity with the slave workers who were even worse off than themselves through the links in the cotton industry - they picked, we wove. Even when Ghandi came to these parts to explain to the workers why he was trying to take away their livelihood he was well received - because he was sticking up for the poor and oppressed. Anyway, don't know much about local reaction to the American war of independence, but judging by other instances of oppressor vs oppressed (such as England's unfair high taxes on the people of the colonies in this case), the majority of the ordinary people probably supported the American bid for freedom. |
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I've been to the Scottish highlands and never come across any anti-English feelings. One place we stayed was actually owned by an English couple and I doubt they'd have settled there if the neighbours were antagonistic.
The Welsh aren't too keen on us in some places. We had all that cottage burning malarky. |
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Anyway to get back onto topic ......... The welsh were fed up of english people buying the cottages for weekend homes and pricing the locals out of the house buying range. Then only turning up for the odd weekend and their local communities were suffering - shops shutting, businesses shutting etc. People who worked in the area couldnt find houses to buy and were then moving out of the area and going elsewhere. |
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The American colonists were not without supporters in the British government. Whig MP Edmund Burke for one, who wrote "Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents" in 1770. He and others thought the grievances legitimate. Prior to 1763, there had been a sort of benign neglect by the British when it came to the American Colonies. However, after the French and Indian Wars, the British government found itself in debt and wished to raise taxes. Prime Minister George Grenville calculated that the average British taxpayer paid 26 shillings annually, whereas a British subject in Massachusetts paid one shilling per year. British landowners, (who controlled Parliament), already paid a tax of 20% and refused to pay more. So commenced the little "stand-off", which led to the American Revolution. The colonists did not want taxation without direct representation.
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I'm sure the average English soldier would see it as quite a legitimate enterprise to try and stamp those raids out. From a geo-political point of view too, most of Englands borders are protected by the sea. Little wonder that from the early Middle Ages to the last of the Jacobite Rebellions in 1745, our only land border was seen as a potential back door for any Continental aggressor - and political, military and economic efforts were made to secure Scotland against alliance with our stronger neighbours. Quote:
Having recently fought an expensive war to protect the Colonies against the French and their Indian allies, I'd have thought that the average redcoat would think it right that the colonists should pay for their own security- that's if they thought much about that sort of thing. Independant thought wasn't much encouraged in European armies of the time. I think they tended to fight for something (ie. the King and the Regiment) rather than against anything or anyone in particular. |
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As for the "45" rebellion if BPC had had the men and support that was needed from Scotland andFrance when he reached Derby parliment and the seat of power could have been Edinburgh. At the time the king, govenment the wealthy etc were ready to abandon London but were saved by the disilusionment amongst the Scottish ranks who after all the empty promises returned home (BPC's arrogence and porkies didnt help ) to their own homes. |
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Perhaps 'raids' was the wrong word. I was thinking more of all of the attacks by Scottish armies into Northern England, at various stages in history, from the Battle of the Standard in 1138 through to the '45 (and beyond - to Wembley in the 1970's ;)). It seems to have become fashionable to see Scotland as the victim of English aggression throughout history. From an English perspective, that's certainly not been the case. |
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;) ahh dont forget there were scots that were against having alliances with france and other foreign countries ie the coventers that were mainly from the west of scotland and they sided with the english cause they were persicuted by their own country cause they werent catholics and the reformation was just happening .most wars after 1314 was just about religion and class :cool: plus most founders of the american revolution were scottish and ulster scots ...
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We are proud of the fact that the peoples of the world are jealous of our superiority.:D |
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I believe we were overtaken in the sueriority stakes by the USA or am I out of touch again. :o |
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Our superiority is beyond reproach.:) |
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Mind you when I look at a map of the Uk its looks like this; Scotland is the head therefore has the brains (plenty of brainy Scots throughout history) England is the heart and lungs (all moterway and warm air) Wales is the belly (enough said) N.Ireland is the consience of the UK. |
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Sounds about right then.:D |
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:D :D :D plus they never put the scottish flag on the union flag first for nothing :D :D :D
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But have you noticed there's no Welsh representation on the Union Flag? This is because of all the subjugated nations of the Union, the Welsh suffered the worst oppression. Their language was banned, their landowners disposessed and brutal laws brought in to keep the people on their knees. Much worse than Scotland or Northern Ireland.
The British Empire was never actually superior. It was just more brutal than anybody else. In Kenya we killed hundreds of thousands in our gulags. In India we killed MILLIONS through starvation (made the potato famine look like the Irish being sent to bed without any tea!). That's how we established control. It's probably a good job we don't have access to guns the way that Americans do :o |
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Take up the White Man's burden-- Send forth the best ye breed-- Go bind your sons to exile To serve your captives' need; To wait in heavy harness, On fluttered folk and wild-- Your new-caught, sullen peoples, Half-devil and half-child. Take up the White Man's burden-- In patience to abide, To veil the threat of terror And check the show of pride; By open speech and simple, An hundred times made plain To seek another's profit, And work another's gain. Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest The end for others sought, Watch sloth and heathen Folly Bring all your hopes to nought. Take up the White Man's burden-- No tawdry rule of kings, But toil of serf and sweeper-- The tale of common things. The ports ye shall not enter, The roads ye shall not tread, Go mark them with your living, And mark them with your dead. Take up the White Man's burden-- And reap his old reward: The blame of those ye better, The hate of those ye guard-- The cry of hosts ye humour (Ah, slowly!) toward the light:-- "Why brought he us from bondage, Our loved Egyptian night?" Take up the White Man's burden-- Ye dare not stoop to less-- Nor call too loud on Freedom To cloke (1) your weariness; By all ye cry or whisper, By all ye leave or do, The silent, sullen peoples Shall weigh your gods and you. Take up the White Man's burden-- Have done with childish days-- The lightly proferred laurel, (2) The easy, ungrudged praise. Comes now, to search your manhood Through all the thankless years Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom, The judgment of your peers! the guy who wrote this won the nobel prize for Literature :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: |
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Speaking personally, and as someone who embodies English, Scottish, Irish, Norman, German, and Roman bloodlines, I am sick to the back teeth of the chippiness of the Scottish, Welsh and Irish. I see no logical reason to harbour grudges and injustices that are hundreds of years old. I also see absolutely no need for successive generations to apologize for what at the time was seen as expedient or necessary. It strikes me that there are far too many people in this country and the larger world who see themselves as the hapless and unresponsible victims of some alleged outrage or other. I think that it is high time that a line was drawn under all this post-imperial angst and that we all got on with the issues that face us today.
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Its easier to focus on the past than the present and the future. One of ourgreatest weaknesses.
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our past is our future always come in cycles .
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I think I'm getting confused , Alan Turing worked on cracking the German enigma codes and the Axis powers were unable to crack the US/Allies codes using the Navaho 'click-click' language, (think Nic Cage did a recent movie 'Windtalkers/Windwalkers about it )
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