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LancYorkYankee 20-10-2006 00:51

Help with English History!
 
Just finished watching Braveheart. Of course I felt pretty bad for the Scots. Is that more of an American reaction? How did the English common man feel about the Scottish?

I guess the same goes for the average young Englishman fighting the colonists. Did the English common man feel sorry for the colonists or consider them ungrateful wretches? (Personally, I felt bad for the English in this one!)

Remember, all my relatives were still over in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and Derbyshire, until the late 1800s to 1924. So I'm just curious as to how they would have felt. Kinda King/Queen right or wrong?

Thanks for any insight you can give!

Brian

Doug 20-10-2006 01:13

Re: Help with English History!
 
Despite being born in Accrington and having local connections with Blackburn going back to the 1840s, I have Scottish/Irish ancestry and feel proudly Celtic. Although I felt that the Film had little to do with the reality of Wallace or the plight of the Scots under the yoke of the Norman English I did feel uncomfortable and somewhat disturbed by the latter events relating to Wallace’s death. Maybe it’s was the anguish of the ages, the betrayal or just a sense of sympathy for his and the plight of the Scots, I don’t know. I watched the film only once and never brought myself to watch the end of it. I still haven’t.

Colonists are like male children, eventually they get cocky and to big for their boots. The same remedy should always be applied, a swift kick up the arse and a slap now and again to remind then of their origins.

steeljack 20-10-2006 01:57

Re: Help with English History!
 
incidental to the main topic one also has to remember that Mel Gibson has history of making anti English films/movies , beginning with Gallipoli , the Bounty , Braveheart , the Patriot , Mel Gibson has gone out of his way to be anti-English.
So I think one can take any historical authenticity in Mel Gibson's Braveheart (producer, director and actor credits) with a pinch of salt

garinda 20-10-2006 07:55

Re: Help with English History!
 
Having been an Englishman who has lived in Scotland, I was always treated with friendliness and respect, though I suspect it's not always the same welcome away from the cosmopolitan cities.

However there is a deep rooted hatred of the English, which is reinforced by the Scottish press. Everything from Culloden and Bannockburn to the Highland clearances, are brought up at every possible occasion, usually in the context of a sports match.

WillowTheWhisp 20-10-2006 09:42

Re: Help with English History!
 
The trouble with history is that all we know is what someone else has written and in most cases the person who made the record will have had their own bias - it's rare for others to delve deeper in an attempt to look for alternatve views.

I was attracted to history purely because of this when a teacher pointed out to me (at age 10) that what he was teaching us was not necessarly fact but merely perceived opinion. We were doing the Wars of the Roses at the time and I was inspired to find out as much as I could on the subject from as many different sources as possible, something which stayed with me for years and resulted in my joining the Richard III society and having a pretty poor opinion of Shakespeare.

However, as to the original question - when it comes down to England and Scotland, considering it was a Scottish king who came to the English throne how come it isn't England wanting independance from Scotland subsequently?;)

Being of partly Irish descent I suppose I naturally tend to come down with the Irish side for the sympathy/empathy there. (But N.I. is an entirely different kettle of ball game if I may borrow a phrase from Keith Waterhouse.)

Back to kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

garinda 20-10-2006 10:48

Re: Help with English History!
 
I think we should get an appology for the Romans invading England.:D

Less 20-10-2006 10:56

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda
I think we should get an appology for the Romans invading England.:D

Yeah right on Rindy, but do you remember this from the life of Brian?

Quote:

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
:D

SPUGGIE J 20-10-2006 13:12

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda
Having been an Englishman who has lived in Scotland, I was always treated with friendliness and respect, though I suspect it's not always the same welcome away from the cosmopolitan cities.

However there is a deep rooted hatred of the English, which is reinforced by the Scottish press. Everything from Culloden and Bannockburn to the Highland clearances, are brought up at every possible occasion, usually in the context of a sports match.

Vey true. Never travel to the sticks unless prepared to take an ear bashing. Survived a wedding in Fort William dressed in a MacDonald kilt. :) The hatred is just under the surface and dosnt take much to bring it up especially at Hogmany parties.

LancYorkYankee 20-10-2006 16:20

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by steeljack
So I think one can take any historical authenticity in Mel Gibson's Braveheart (producer, director and actor credits) with a pinch of salt

Yeah, I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that Braveheart was a completely accurate portrail. Still, do the Scots/Irish have a "right" to dislike the English? Do they more hate the English elite/politicos or just the English in general. This goes the other way for the common Englishman.

I agree Willow with the biases. Having been raised up "north", always thought the "south" deserved every bad thing that happened to em. However, now living down here I have a whole different view, certainly more balanced. I was embarassed by my ignorance.

It really hit when my parents were visiting and me mum took a fit at seeing the Confederate flag on some of the houses. "They shouldn't be allowed to have that, the stinkin rebels." My dad. always much more balanced merely stated that "it was a flag they fought and died for and have every right to fly it."

Less 20-10-2006 16:31

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
Do they more hate the English elite/politicos or just the English in general. This goes the other way for the common Englishman.

I think an example of like and dislike can actually be taken from football competitions, If the English team get knocked out of something such as the world cup the English fans will support The Scottish and the Irish (Eire) teams.
If however the Scots or the Irish get knocked out their fans will back anyone so long as it's NOT the English team!:engsmil:
:D

Billcat 20-10-2006 16:45

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug
Colonists are like male children, eventually they get cocky and to big for their boots. The same remedy should always be applied, a swift kick up the arse and a slap now and again to remind then of their origins.

Hmmm....kinda the attitude that Lord North had, and so annoyed fellows like John Adams, Ben Franklin, Tom Jefferson and George Washington. ;)

If not for that, all this (USA) could have remained yours!

Less 20-10-2006 16:50

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat
John Adams, Ben Franklin, Tom Jefferson and George Washington.

If not for that, all this (USA) could have remained yours!

Who?:p

We had a lucky escape then!:D

semihere 20-10-2006 17:37

Re: Help with English History!
 
Hell, everyone in the world (or at least all the areas of the world map that used to be coloured red in British textbooks) should hate England. We're responsible for millions of brutal deaths throughout our bleak history.

I do know that the ordinary folks of Lancashire came out en masse to support the Union in the American Civil War against the oppressive slave labour of the Confederate states. The British establishment, however, supported the South. But isn't that the way it's been for most of time - a class war. The establishment supporting the rich, the everyday people supporting the poor and oppressed.

There were mass demonstrations in and around Manchester by the mill workers from all of the surrounding cotton towns. They had a close affinity with the slave workers who were even worse off than themselves through the links in the cotton industry - they picked, we wove.

Even when Ghandi came to these parts to explain to the workers why he was trying to take away their livelihood he was well received - because he was sticking up for the poor and oppressed.

Anyway, don't know much about local reaction to the American war of independence, but judging by other instances of oppressor vs oppressed (such as England's unfair high taxes on the people of the colonies in this case), the majority of the ordinary people probably supported the American bid for freedom.

WillowTheWhisp 20-10-2006 18:23

Re: Help with English History!
 
I've been to the Scottish highlands and never come across any anti-English feelings. One place we stayed was actually owned by an English couple and I doubt they'd have settled there if the neighbours were antagonistic.

The Welsh aren't too keen on us in some places. We had all that cottage burning malarky.

shillelagh 20-10-2006 19:27

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Less
I think an example of like and dislike can actually be taken from football competitions, If the English team get knocked out of something such as the world cup the English fans will support The Scottish and the Irish (Eire) teams.
If however the Scots or the Irish get knocked out their fans will back anyone so long as it's NOT the English team!:engsmil:
:D

Thats not true Less - my mum & dad always supported England when Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland werent playing or got kicked out of the competition. They both came from Northern Ireland. Mind you they didnt have taste - they were both Blackburn Rovers fans!

Anyway to get back onto topic .........

The welsh were fed up of english people buying the cottages for weekend homes and pricing the locals out of the house buying range. Then only turning up for the odd weekend and their local communities were suffering - shops shutting, businesses shutting etc. People who worked in the area couldnt find houses to buy and were then moving out of the area and going elsewhere.

bullseyebarb 20-10-2006 20:31

Re: Help with English History!
 
The American colonists were not without supporters in the British government. Whig MP Edmund Burke for one, who wrote "Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents" in 1770. He and others thought the grievances legitimate. Prior to 1763, there had been a sort of benign neglect by the British when it came to the American Colonies. However, after the French and Indian Wars, the British government found itself in debt and wished to raise taxes. Prime Minister George Grenville calculated that the average British taxpayer paid 26 shillings annually, whereas a British subject in Massachusetts paid one shilling per year. British landowners, (who controlled Parliament), already paid a tax of 20% and refused to pay more. So commenced the little "stand-off", which led to the American Revolution. The colonists did not want taxation without direct representation.

WarsawPact 20-10-2006 20:56

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
How did the English common man feel about the Scottish?

As far back as recorded history goes, Northern England has been subject to raids from north of the border.
I'm sure the average English soldier would see it as quite a legitimate enterprise to try and stamp those raids out.

From a geo-political point of view too, most of Englands borders are protected by the sea. Little wonder that from the early Middle Ages to the last of the Jacobite Rebellions in 1745, our only land border was seen as a potential back door for any Continental aggressor - and political, military and economic efforts were made to secure Scotland against alliance with our stronger neighbours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
I guess the same goes for the average young Englishman fighting the colonists. Did the English common man feel sorry for the colonists or consider them ungrateful wretches? (Personally, I felt bad for the English in this one!)

British Empire vs Revolting Colonials.
Having recently fought an expensive war to protect the Colonies against the French and their Indian allies, I'd have thought that the average redcoat would think it right that the colonists should pay for their own security- that's if they thought much about that sort of thing. Independant thought wasn't much encouraged in European armies of the time. I think they tended to fight for something (ie. the King and the Regiment) rather than against anything or anyone in particular.

SPUGGIE J 20-10-2006 21:12

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WarsawPact
As far back as recorded history goes, Northern England has been subject to raids from north of the border.
I'm sure the average English soldier would see it as quite a legitimate enterprise to try and stamp those raids out.

The border raids worked both ways and usually the target was cattle and sheep. These raids were part and parcel of everyday live and in a odd sort of way could be classed as a game if a somewhat serious one at that.

SPUGGIE J 20-10-2006 21:22

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WarsawPact
From a geo-political point of view too, most of Englands borders are protected by the sea. Little wonder that from the early Middle Ages to the last of the Jacobite Rebellions in 1745, our only land border was seen as a potential back door for any Continental aggressor - and political, military and economic efforts were made to secure Scotland against alliance with our stronger neighbours.

Yes there was alliances between the Scots and contintinental powers ie France (longest was with Portugal) and all the Scots did was to take advantage of the political situation for their own ends and that was the norm for years. England in the end able to "buy" Scotland after Scotlands failed attempt at a South American Colony left it bankrupt.

As for the "45" rebellion if BPC had had the men and support that was needed from Scotland andFrance when he reached Derby parliment and the seat of power could have been Edinburgh. At the time the king, govenment the wealthy etc were ready to abandon London but were saved by the disilusionment amongst the Scottish ranks who after all the empty promises returned home (BPC's arrogence and porkies didnt help ) to their own homes.

WarsawPact 20-10-2006 21:59

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J
The border raids worked both ways and usually the target was cattle and sheep. These raids were part and parcel of everyday live and in a odd sort of way could be classed as a game if a somewhat serious one at that.

I completely agree with you (I've read George MacDonald Frasier's excellent book about the Border Reivers - "The Steel Bonnets").

Perhaps 'raids' was the wrong word.
I was thinking more of all of the attacks by Scottish armies into Northern England, at various stages in history, from the Battle of the Standard in 1138 through to the '45 (and beyond - to Wembley in the 1970's ;)).

It seems to have become fashionable to see Scotland as the victim of English aggression throughout history.
From an English perspective, that's certainly not been the case.

cmonstanley 20-10-2006 22:12

Re: Help with English History!
 
;) ahh dont forget there were scots that were against having alliances with france and other foreign countries ie the coventers that were mainly from the west of scotland and they sided with the english cause they were persicuted by their own country cause they werent catholics and the reformation was just happening .most wars after 1314 was just about religion and class :cool: plus most founders of the american revolution were scottish and ulster scots ...

garinda 20-10-2006 23:28

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
Yeah, I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that Braveheart was a completely accurate portrail. Still, do the Scots/Irish have a "right" to dislike the English? Do they more hate the English elite/politicos or just the English in general.

Everyone hates the English.:o

We are proud of the fact that the peoples of the world are jealous of our superiority.:D

SPUGGIE J 20-10-2006 23:36

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda
Everyone hates the English.:o

We are proud of the fact that the peoples of the world are jealous of our superiority.:D

Does that include the English???? :p

I believe we were overtaken in the sueriority stakes by the USA or am I out of touch again. :o

garinda 20-10-2006 23:41

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J
Does that include the English???? :p

I believe we were overtaken in the sueriority stakes by the USA or am I out of touch again. :o

No the American's fake superiority/pride is because they are ashamed that they are ex-colonials. That's why many of them collect expensive tacky dolls of our dead Royals, to ease their shame.;)

Our superiority is beyond reproach.:)

SPUGGIE J 21-10-2006 00:07

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda
No the American's fake superiority/pride is because they are ashamed that they are ex-colonials. That's why many of them collect expensive tacky dolls of our dead Royals, to ease their shame.;)

Our superiority is beyond reproach.:)

The worlds number one. :)

Mind you when I look at a map of the Uk its looks like this;

Scotland is the head therefore has the brains (plenty of brainy Scots throughout history)

England is the heart and lungs (all moterway and warm air)

Wales is the belly (enough said)

N.Ireland is the consience of the UK.

cmonstanley 21-10-2006 00:09

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WarsawPact
As far back as recorded history goes, Northern England has been subject to raids from north of the border.
I'm sure the average English soldier would see it as quite a legitimate enterprise to try and stamp those raids out.

From a geo-political point of view too, most of Englands borders are protected by the sea. Little wonder that from the early Middle Ages to the last of the Jacobite Rebellions in 1745, our only land border was seen as a potential back door for any Continental aggressor - and political, military and economic efforts were made to secure Scotland against alliance with our stronger neighbours.


British Empire vs Revolting Colonials.
Having recently fought an expensive war to protect the Colonies against the French and their Indian allies, I'd have thought that the average redcoat would think it right that the colonists should pay for their own security- that's if they thought much about that sort of thing. Independant thought wasn't much encouraged in European armies of the time. I think they tended to fight for something (ie. the King and the Regiment) rather than against anything or anyone in particular.

most of the redcoats were foreign or scottish mercernaries fighting for the highest bidder.....

garinda 21-10-2006 00:12

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J
The worlds number one. :)

Mind you when I look at a map of the Uk its looks like this;

Scotland is the head therefore has the brains (plenty of brainy Scots throughout history)

England is the heart and lungs (all moterway and warm air)

Wales is the belly (enough said)

N.Ireland is the consience of the UK.

But that'll make London the verruca on the toe?

Sounds about right then.:D

SPUGGIE J 21-10-2006 00:14

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cmonstanley
most of the redcoats were foreign or scottish mercernaries fighting for the highest bidder.....

All foriegn armies hated coming up against the Scots, because if the bagpipes didnt scare the living daylights out of them then devils in skirts did. All that highland meat and 2 veg swinging put the fear of god in em. :D

cmonstanley 21-10-2006 00:53

Re: Help with English History!
 
:D :D :D plus they never put the scottish flag on the union flag first for nothing :D :D :D

glasgow guy 21-10-2006 11:39

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee
Just finished watching Braveheart. Of course I felt pretty bad for the Scots. Is that more of an American reaction? How did the English common man feel about the Scottish?

I guess the same goes for the average young Englishman fighting the colonists. Did the English common man feel sorry for the colonists or consider them ungrateful wretches? (Personally, I felt bad for the English in this one!)

Remember, all my relatives were still over in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and Derbyshire, until the late 1800s to 1924. So I'm just curious as to how they would have felt. Kinda King/Queen right or wrong?

Thanks for any insight you can give!

Brian

bravheart whilst it might be a good film to some is quite far from the actual truth and I cringe at it when its on.. and is just the usual crap that hollywood want you to believe..they make a film about history and re-write the history to suit themselves...look at the pearl harbour film and the film about the guy who invented the code that germans couldnt use during the war...

semihere 21-10-2006 18:15

Re: Help with English History!
 
But have you noticed there's no Welsh representation on the Union Flag? This is because of all the subjugated nations of the Union, the Welsh suffered the worst oppression. Their language was banned, their landowners disposessed and brutal laws brought in to keep the people on their knees. Much worse than Scotland or Northern Ireland.

The British Empire was never actually superior. It was just more brutal than anybody else. In Kenya we killed hundreds of thousands in our gulags. In India we killed MILLIONS through starvation (made the potato famine look like the Irish being sent to bed without any tea!). That's how we established control. It's probably a good job we don't have access to guns the way that Americans do :o

Wynonie Harris 21-10-2006 18:38

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by semihere
The British Empire was never actually superior. It was just more brutal than anybody else.:o

Utter tripe. Have you never learnt about what the Spanish and Portuguese did in South America?

steeljack 21-10-2006 19:09

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by semihere
But have you noticed there's no Welsh representation on the Union Flag? This is because of all the subjugated nations of the Union, the Welsh suffered the worst oppression. Their language was banned, their landowners disposessed and brutal laws brought in to keep the people on their knees. Much worse than Scotland or Northern Ireland.

The British Empire was never actually superior. It was just more brutal than anybody else. In Kenya we killed hundreds of thousands in our gulags. In India we killed MILLIONS through starvation (made the potato famine look like the Irish being sent to bed without any tea!). That's how we established control. It's probably a good job we don't have access to guns the way that Americans do :o

its obvious you never had to learn this in school

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke (1) your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel, (2)
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

the guy who wrote this won the nobel prize for Literature

:engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil: :engsmil:

Bazf 21-10-2006 20:54

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by semihere
But have you noticed there's no Welsh representation on the Union Flag? This is because of all the subjugated nations of the Union, the Welsh suffered the worst oppression. Their language was banned, their landowners disposessed and brutal laws brought in to keep the people on their knees. Much worse than Scotland or Northern Ireland.

The British Empire was never actually superior. It was just more brutal than anybody else. In Kenya we killed hundreds of thousands in our gulags. In India we killed MILLIONS through starvation (made the potato famine look like the Irish being sent to bed without any tea!). That's how we established control. It's probably a good job we don't have access to guns the way that Americans do :o

Wales had no explicit recognition in the flag because Wales had been annexed by Edward 1 in 1282, and since the The Laws of Wales act and the ceding of Wales by Llwelyn ap Gruffudd, Wales was legally part of the Kingdom of England . The Kingdom of Ireland, which had existed as a personal union with England since 1541 , was likewise unrepresented in the original Union Flag.

Acrylic-bob 22-10-2006 09:55

Re: Help with English History!
 
Speaking personally, and as someone who embodies English, Scottish, Irish, Norman, German, and Roman bloodlines, I am sick to the back teeth of the chippiness of the Scottish, Welsh and Irish. I see no logical reason to harbour grudges and injustices that are hundreds of years old. I also see absolutely no need for successive generations to apologize for what at the time was seen as expedient or necessary. It strikes me that there are far too many people in this country and the larger world who see themselves as the hapless and unresponsible victims of some alleged outrage or other. I think that it is high time that a line was drawn under all this post-imperial angst and that we all got on with the issues that face us today.

SPUGGIE J 22-10-2006 11:58

Re: Help with English History!
 
Its easier to focus on the past than the present and the future. One of ourgreatest weaknesses.

cmonstanley 24-10-2006 18:22

Re: Help with English History!
 
our past is our future always come in cycles .

WillowTheWhisp 24-10-2006 19:22

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by glasgow guy
the guy who invented the code that germans couldnt use during the war...

Wasn't it the guy who solved the riddle of the code the Germans were using? :confused:

garinda 24-10-2006 23:17

Re: Help with English History!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp
Wasn't it the guy who solved the riddle of the code the Germans were using? :confused:

Manchester based suicide victim and homosexual Alan Turing.

steeljack 24-10-2006 23:28

Re: Help with English History!
 
I think I'm getting confused , Alan Turing worked on cracking the German enigma codes and the Axis powers were unable to crack the US/Allies codes using the Navaho 'click-click' language, (think Nic Cage did a recent movie 'Windtalkers/Windwalkers about it )


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