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kestrelx 28-10-2012 10:59

Are you sick of the E.U.?
 
It just came across this article about Surgeons leaving work at 48 hours, per week, even if half way through an operation. They do this because of the European Union...European Working Time Directive.

How European working rules have created a generation of "clocking off" doctors - Telegraph

Article written by a surgeon...quote;

I was performing surgery last week while teaching a newly qualified doctor at the same time – nothing unusual about that. Then, it got to 6pm and the trainee said she had to down tools. Sadly, there's nothing unusual about that, either.

I asked her what was so important that she have to leave mid-operation. She simply said she had to get home to baby sit because it was her "husband's night out with the boys". She was not apologetic about it and didn't really see it as a problem.

So, despite the operation being an interesting one, which would provide her with plenty of learning opportunities, she left promptly at 6pm, leaving me to finish the case.

It would have been great to leave early that day too. I had an important weekend – I had a reunion with all my friends from university and I was really looking forward to it. But it wouldn't have mattered if it were my parents' golden wedding anniversary, if I have a patient on the table, I just couldn't walk out.

It wasn't the first time I've seen a doctor walk out on a patient. I remember operating on a patient's abdomen when a trainee surgeon suddenly said he had to go home, because his shift was over. I had to struggle to finish the operation on my own.

cashman 28-10-2012 11:22

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Disgraceful, dedication to the job long gone out the window.:(

Margaret Pilkington 28-10-2012 11:29

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
There's no answer to that.
After all the threads and posts condemning the practices of this undemocratic money pit....you ask that question.
Surely the answer is self evident.
(I'm really not having a go at you Kestrelx - it is just that anything...absolutely anything to do with the EU puts my hackles up)

BERNADETTE 28-10-2012 11:38

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Seems to me this is nothing to do with EU directives and a lot to do with being in the wrong job. The stories I have been told about how patients are being treated within our hospitals are really very scary and as far as I'm concerned it has been due to proffessionals who just don't care.
And before anyone has a go I am not saying all health care staff are like this but unfortunately some are and it is the patients who suffer because of this.

kestrelx 28-10-2012 11:43

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1025214)
Disgraceful, dedication to the job long gone out the window.:(

I know there have been programs talking about people in hospitals being treat badly by the nursing staff. Which many are foreigners and they are trained to have least "human" contact with the patient - my information is coming from some radio program about this about 1 year ago. People phoned in and related how their relatives were often ignored by the nursese attending them.

Experience I've had with dentists down here, is that many of them come over here to make a killing out of NHS service. Many of them only like doing any work if it means they are going to get paid significantly and they prefer people who are paying for their treatment, not NHS!

Margaret Pilkington 28-10-2012 11:46

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Bernie, it all started with the EU working time directive.....in 1998.
Prior to that Doctors worked very long hours...but the working time directive has led some doctors to think that they can just clock off....what this young woman (in the bit posted by Kestrelx) didn't realise, was that she was missing a vital part of her education by not staying....and yes, it does have a lot to say about the quality of the candidates accepted for training as doctors...it says they really are only in it for the money.......not to help people, or to benefit mankind, but to further the financial fortunes of number one.
Very sad....but it started with the EU.

Margaret Pilkington 28-10-2012 11:49

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
there are good nurses and there are bad nurses........my daughter has recently had the misfortune of being in RBH......she was treated best by a foreign nurse......who worked her socks off to help the patients in her care....some of the other staff left a lot to be desired.......and the registrar who discharged her was downright rude and abrupt.

kestrelx 28-10-2012 11:52

Re: Are you sick of the E.U.?
 
Taken from the Telegraph:
Quote:

In at least 21 cases where casualty or maternity units have closed or closures been planned since 2009, NHS officials have cited the European Working Time Directive (EWTD) as a factor in the decision.

Managers say that the directive, which sets a maximum 48-hour-week for doctors, has left hospitals with too few staff to keep the departments open.

Critics say the findings show how the Strasbourg diktat is jeopardising patient safety and needs to be reformed.
Read more at this link...;)

EU rules are driving maternity and casualty closures - Telegraph

cashman 28-10-2012 11:56

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
The admin is diabolical, fer the N.H.S. i have been to see a specialist at Royal Blackburn recently n had certain tests, I was told after i would have results n return in 4 weeks, They then made the appointment n told me sorry it will be 5 weeks cos of holidays, I thought great am suffering fer n extra week.:( early last week i got a letter from em stating i am going in Nov 5th n will have a local aesthetic,:eek: so i think hell i'm having n operation, so i ring em to ask n they say no yer having a biopsy but yeh need a local fer it, i ask why does letter not say that instead of the way its worded? oh its a standard letter was reply,anyway 2 days later i get a phone call from em, saying were very sorry but theres been a mistake, yeh aint coming fer a biopsy after all.:eek:I say what about my original instructions from em about me results? i am told oh its ok,if theres owt wrong someone will send fer yeh.:mad: 2 days after that i get a letter wi n appointment to see the specialist on Nov 16th:rolleyes: No-one seems to have a sodding clue who is doing what you, its pathetic in my view.:mad:

Wynonie Harris 28-10-2012 13:43

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Shouldn't that be "Are you sick of the EU?" No matter. Yes, of course, I am, just like the majority of people in this country. But our fine, upstanding democratic politicians won't give us a vote on the subject, because they're terrified of what the answer will be!

StevenWaling 28-10-2012 13:56

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
I think on the whole, I'd rather have the European Time Directive than a surgeon with a scalpel working his 80th hour that week...

cashman 28-10-2012 14:09

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenWaling (Post 1025261)
I think on the whole, I'd rather have the European Time Directive than a surgeon with a scalpel working his 80th hour that week...

Why should that be the choice or are yeh just n E.U. freak in the minority?:rolleyes:

Margaret Pilkington 28-10-2012 14:13

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Well having worked for almost 30 years in the NHS......I think most surgeons knew their limitations and kept well within them......they did not, however, clockwatch.
We really didn't need the EU to meddle in our employment laws.

Many consultants that I worked with would come in, on their days off to see patients that they were concerned about...and that was because they were interested in the well being of that patient.
That is the kind of surgeon that I would want...not one that looked at the clock and handed over his scalpel to someone else halfway through an operation.

Retlaw 28-10-2012 15:22

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 1025259)
Shouldn't that be "Are you sick of the EU?" No matter. Yes, of course, I am, just like the majority of people in this country. But our fine, upstanding democratic politicians won't give us a vote on the subject, because they're terrified of what the answer will be!

They are even more terrified of missing out on the gravy train, when they leave British Politics, and join the pigs at the trough in Belgium.

Guinness 28-10-2012 16:07

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
This one hasn't really got much to do with the actual directive. This is about people who don't want to work longer than they have to.

The directive states that no-one can force you to work more then 48hr a week, it's meant to prevent sweat shops...not to let doctors skive off in the middle of an operation.

P.S. I still voted yes

Boeing Guy 28-10-2012 16:33

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Seeing we are talking about working hours.....
BALPA | MPs BACK PILOTS? EU FATIGUE CONCERNS
And here
New air flight time proposals 'jeopardise' passenger safety: theparliament.com

Sick to the back teeth of europe

maxthecollie 28-10-2012 18:01

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Get us OUT!

Shurm 28-10-2012 18:22

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Seems these directives are in place to help protect people however my company before it will employ anybody makes you sign away any right to that directive so that seems an easy cop out for any company really.

Less 28-10-2012 18:41

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shurm (Post 1025304)
Seems these directives are in place to help protect people however my company before it will employ anybody makes you sign away any right to that directive so that seems an easy cop out for any company really.

Is it a cop out?

When in work I've always been able to work as is needed, if having worked for 18 hours one day, I may have been expected to turn up on site at the normal time, sometimes you just need to push the envelope and contribute more, if I had such an important thing as a human being in front of me I would probably push that a little bit further, the better your results from efforts the better it will be for everyone.
A Doctor that doesn't give a monkies isn't a Doctor, he/she is just someone at the end of a production line and hasn't earned the title.

Margaret Pilkington 28-10-2012 19:02

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Spot on Less.
Someone who only does something for money will rarely go that extra mile....unless of course you are paying them a lot more for the extra mile.
Medicine is a vocation...yes the practitioners need to keep the wolf from the door, but most do it because they have a passion for making a difference.

accyman 29-10-2012 20:46

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
according to our MP we all love been in the EU and those that dont are too thick to understand it so until our MP thinks otherwise were stuck with the EU regardless of what the electorate thinks

Guinness 29-10-2012 21:33

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Wish this guy was our MP...sums up the European Parliament and what we should do about it perfectly

'Elected leaders in Italy, Greece replaced by Eurocrats' - YouTube

Margaret Pilkington 29-10-2012 22:23

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
This is no surprise to many of us.
Thankyou Daniel Hannan.

cmonstanley 30-10-2012 19:44

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
when the nhs is privatised under the tories im all for the directive,they can always sign out of the directive so this is a non poll:eek:

Margaret Pilkington 30-10-2012 20:09

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
What are you talking about?
Who can sign out of the directive...the NHS?
I don't think so...the WTD applies to everyone. Some can opt out of the 48 hrs per week...but everything else stands.


The only way out is OUT.....OUT of the EU that is!

cmonstanley 30-10-2012 21:23

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
You dont know european law then ,any employer can give an opt out clause for an employee to sign.

Boeing Guy 30-10-2012 21:26

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Well the airlines cannot, thanks to EASA.
The sooner we leave the EU the better

Margaret Pilkington 30-10-2012 22:26

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
an employer cannot force their workers to work more that 48hours in one week...this can be averaged out over a period of 17 weeks(this regulation is as a result of the WTD) it is slightly different for doctors...their average is over a 26 week period.
Employees can choose to work more that 48 hours per week if they wish...but there has to be a period of 11 hours between shifts in every 24 hours.

https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-wo...hours/overview

cashman 30-10-2012 22:42

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cmonstanley (Post 1025658)
You dont know european law then ,any employer can give an opt out clause for an employee to sign.

No its you that don't, see last 2 posts.:rolleyes: Though a cowboy firm or non-union may be able to pull a stroke.

Shurm 30-10-2012 23:46

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
All I know is at my company we sign away any right to a 48 hour week before we're given a job and my Wife signed one as well and she works for the NHS.

Like I said earlier these directives are probably in place to help employees and Company's just make you sign something so it's useless really.

kestrelx 30-10-2012 23:57

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 1025259)
Shouldn't that be "Are you sick of the EU?" No matter. Yes, of course, I am, just like the majority of people in this country. But our fine, upstanding democratic politicians won't give us a vote on the subject, because they're terrified of what the answer will be!

Yes it was meant to be "of" but I think I may have coined a new phrase -"Are you sick to the EU!" know what I mean ;)

Next thing they want to bring in is a banking supervisor and they want the banking union. That means EU controlling all countries budgets.

Anyone noticed that one of the logo's for EU is a single eye!

cmonstanley 31-10-2012 00:01

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
i dont agree with the wastage but they did contribute towards blackpool which is looking good.dont know if the tories would have contributed;):p

Wynonie Harris 31-10-2012 01:23

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cmonstanley (Post 1025688)
i dont agree with the wastage but they did contribute towards blackpool which is looking good.dont know if the tories would have contributed;):p

We are one of the very few net contributors to the EU - ie, we pay more in than we get out. So it doesn't matter what grants they've awarded the UK for various "improvements", we're losing out massively on this deal.

One good thing Thatcher did was to handbag the other EU leaders into giving us a sizeable rebate to make up for the fact that we're paying through the nose to be in this rotten, corrupt club. Unfortunately, that odious creature, Blair (who doubtless you voted for), gave away a considerable portion of that rebate in return for vague promises on CAP reform which naturally have never been kept. :rolleyes:

Guinness 31-10-2012 07:29

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cmonstanley (Post 1025658)
You dont know european law then ,any employer can give an opt out clause for an employee to sign.

You know the old chestnut..give an infinite amount of monkeys an infinite amount of typewriters and one of them will produce the complete works of Shakespeare...

Same with the EU...with all the nonsense laws they pass it stands to reason that sooner or later they will get one right. The Working time directive is one they got right.

You cannot be forced to work more than 48 hours a week, the opt out is for you not the company...it's so that you can work overtime if you choose, even if you have signed an opt out the company cannot force you to work more than 48 hours a week.

Margaret Pilkington 31-10-2012 08:33

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shurm (Post 1025685)
All I know is at my company we sign away any right to a 48 hour week before we're given a job and my Wife signed one as well and she works for the NHS.

Like I said earlier these directives are probably in place to help employees and Company's just make you sign something so it's useless really.

I don't think these bits of paper have any standing in the law.
The Health and Safety Executive(HSE) enforce the WTD rules......as I said previously employers cannot force their employees to work more than 48 hours per week - but also that this is averaged out over 17 weeks...so if you worked more than 48 hours by choice for some of those weeks(as long as when averaged out over 17 weeks the total did not exceed 48 per working week) then you would not have been deemed to have contravened the regulations.

I worked for the NHS when these regulations came in, and I was required to ensure that my staff did not contravene the regs...this was sometimes difficult because of the shift patterns - but sometimes it meant that staff had to have 'unscheduled time off' to avoid falling foul of the regulations.

Shurm 31-10-2012 09:29

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Thanks for the previous 2 posts if that's the case I've learned something, funny they don't explain it that way to you when you sign.

Margaret Pilkington 31-10-2012 10:40

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
No they won't do...but if you check out the HSE site it is quite clear.

It used to give me nightmares checking the monthly duty rotas and making sure we were within the regs.
I have neen left the NHS for 10 years now, but they were slavish in the adherence to the regs and I can't see it having changed.

That is what gets me about the EU......the frech pick and choose which rules they will follow and which they won't...but the UK is slavish to the rules.

As for what we get out...it is very little. I don't think the front at Blackpool is a great bargain for the billions we have paid in. Definitely not good value for money....especially when there isn't any money to spare.

DaveinGermany 31-10-2012 11:36

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
As you're aware I live in the heartland of the EUSSR, they're quick enough to pass laws & regs, but in reality there's always a get out clause somewhere in amongst all the burocrateese. Prime example is the WTD of no more than 48 hrs per week, sounds fine until you read the rest of it, or upto 60hrs in the week so long as it averages out & here's the kicker, over 4 months/16 weeks.

That's how it applies to me as a wagon driver, but I believe it goes for other trades too. As it is I'm pushing between 50-60 working hours quite regularly without getting overtime or time in lieu, the reason given is always "That's the way it is in this branch, don't like it go somewhere else !" Nice ain't it.

So to a point I can understand those who say no thanks but my times up I'm offski if they aren't compensated, but at the same time I know the frustration of being on the receiving end of such treatment & the sense of dismay this brings. I suppose a lot of it is down to the way firms/employers treat their workforce & the individuals personal & moral code .

StevenWaling 31-10-2012 11:41

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
So tell me, what exactly is the difference between being run by a bunch of super-rich Hooray Henries lining their own and their rich mates' pockets in Whitehall and being run by Herman the German super-rich liner of his and his rich mates' pockets?

The working-class still get screwed; but hey, that's alright, they're screwing you with a British accent!

Margaret Pilkington 31-10-2012 12:54

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 1025714)
As you're aware I live in the heartland of the EUSSR, they're quick enough to pass laws & regs, but in reality there's always a get out clause somewhere in amongst all the burocrateese. Prime example is the WTD of no more than 48 hrs per week, sounds fine until you read the rest of it, or upto 60hrs in the week so long as it averages out & here's the kicker, over 4 months/16 weeks.

That's how it applies to me as a wagon driver, but I believe it goes for other trades too. As it is I'm pushing between 50-60 working hours quite regularly without getting overtime or time in lieu, the reason given is always "That's the way it is in this branch, don't like it go somewhere else !" Nice ain't it.

So to a point I can understand those who say no thanks but my times up I'm offski if they aren't compensated, but at the same time I know the frustration of being on the receiving end of such treatment & the sense of dismay this brings. I suppose a lot of it is down to the way firms/employers treat their workforce & the individuals personal & moral code .

I have an inkling that the WTD does not apply to mobile workers.

DaveinGermany 31-10-2012 14:11

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1025717)
I have an inkling that the WTD does not apply to mobile workers.

I've been led to believe it does (due to the compulsory lectures I'm obliged to attend at certain week-ends :() although what actually happens in practice as opposed to theory ..................

Transports Friend - Working Time Directive

Margaret Pilkington 31-10-2012 14:24

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
The Working Time Regulations
Maybe I have read the linked document wrongly then, but (and I hadn't read your link)I thought that the regs only applied to non mobile workers...but you are at the sharp end so I defer to your knowledge.

I know that we had this legislation preached at us, times without number when it came in(and of course I was working) so I had to know it...being out of circulation for 10 years has meant I could kiss it goodbye.......but it awakened some powerful (not good) memories for me.

DaveinGermany 31-10-2012 14:39

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1025728)
I thought that the regs only applied to non mobile workers.

It's across the board Ma, there was resistance from various transport bodies saying they'd loose out while others gained an advantage & that's why it's supposedly applied to all equally, but as has been highlighted by other posters on here & from my own personal experience, a lot of it is just given lip service & not actually actioned.

Sad but true.

cashman 31-10-2012 14:46

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 1025737)

Sad but true.

The real sad but true, thing is the fact that no brit will probably "EVER" be given the chance to say so by ballot, cos we have already been informed from a valid source, that most of us don't give a stuff.:rolleyes:

Margaret Pilkington 31-10-2012 14:49

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
I think the person who made that comment will be, by now, regretting that he ever mantioned it.

I'm sure he can see that the 95% do give a stuff.

DaveinGermany 31-10-2012 15:15

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1025744)
I'm sure he can see that the 95% do give a stuff.

Not necessarily, it's a Bolicticians 95% when all's said & done. ;)

For us peons, that means 95 burghers out of 100 agree/disagree, but in Bolictical parlance if only 30 odd bods bother & 28.5 agree/disagree, then obviously, that overrides the peasant majorities opinion of the 1.5 that didn't & the other 70 no shows ! Giving the stated 95%. :eek:

Seemples !

Margaret Pilkington 31-10-2012 15:29

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Yes, the results are skewed by by those not counted....some of us no-shows, actually showed and wrote something on our ballot paper........but that means we don't count...except, in real terms we do!

Guinness 31-10-2012 21:39

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
See this is what I do not understand about British politics....a vote is passed in the house but is not BINDING on ministers!!!! :eek:

BBC News - EU budget vote: Rebel MPs defeat government over spending cut call

Unless I'm way off base here, this is saying that a democratic vote in parliament is MEANINGLESS because the government can pretty much ignore it and go ahead with doing what it wants anyway.

If the way I'm reading this is true, just what is the freakin' point of spending an arm and a leg on free elections and 500+ MP's if we end up with a dictatorship?

Genuinely puzzled here :confused:

Mancie 31-10-2012 22:39

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1025822)
See this is what I do not understand about British politics....a vote is passed in the house but is not BINDING on ministers!!!! :eek:

BBC News - EU budget vote: Rebel MPs defeat government over spending cut call

Unless I'm way off base here, this is saying that a democratic vote in parliament is MEANINGLESS because the government can pretty much ignore it and go ahead with doing what it wants anyway.

If the way I'm reading this is true, just what is the freakin' point of spending an arm and a leg on free elections and 500+ MP's if we end up with a dictatorship?

Genuinely puzzled here :confused:

It's all above board..have people forgot that one of the first acts the con-dems forced through Parliment was that any binding vote was changed from 51% to 55%..the Tories also made it almost impossible to throw them out within five years by pushing through the same percentage of vote for Parliment voting on no confidence.. it used to be 51% of a vote in the house.. they made it 55%.. so much for democracy

kestrelx 31-10-2012 23:27

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 1025834)
It's all above board..have people forgot that one of the first acts the con-dems forced through Parliment was that any binding vote was changed from 51% to 55%..the Tories also made it almost impossible to throw them out within five years by pushing through the same percentage of vote for Parliment voting on no confidence.. it used to be 51% of a vote in the house.. they made it 55%.. so much for democracy

That's similar to what Hitler did when he got in power, except more extreme. :rolleyes:

Mancie 01-11-2012 00:10

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Tell you what all this talk about leaving the EU makes me laugh.. all of a sudden the Tory farmers are kakin themselves.. most of thier income comes from benifits from the EU..ain't seen the counryside alliance or farmers organising blockades these days..:D

Mancie 01-11-2012 00:59

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
I tell you another thing that turns the gut..the Lib-Dems voted en mass for Cameron and the Tories yet again.. Nick Glegg and his sheep are in so deep the poo is up to thier necks.. they will take the toll.

Margaret Pilkington 01-11-2012 07:56

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Mancie, I do not recall you being so vociferous about new Labour policies...in any past thread. In your eyes they did no wrong.
Any opportunities to kick the tories for whatever reason...real or perceived.

They( the politicians) are all cut from the same bit of cloth......on the bias too.
None of 'em can lie straight in bed.

While David Cameron may choose to ignore the message from the 50 dissenters, I think that, to do so would be dangerous to his leadership...and I would guess he wants to hold onto that.

Guinness 01-11-2012 08:38

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 1025834)
It's all above board..have people forgot that one of the first acts the con-dems forced through Parliment was that any binding vote was changed from 51% to 55%..the Tories also made it almost impossible to throw them out within five years by pushing through the same percentage of vote for Parliment voting on no confidence.. it used to be 51% of a vote in the house.. they made it 55%.. so much for democracy

What is more worrying is that this is a prime example of a total loss of sovereignty, it shows our Parliament to be powerless because Cameron can still go to Brussels and agree an increase in funds for the EU despite a majority vote against by MP's.

In a few days many kids will be chucking an effigy on a bonfire, we should actually be building statues to Guy Fawkes all over the country, he was way ahead of his time with his thinking :D

MargaretR 01-11-2012 10:09

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1025868)
he was way ahead of his time with his thinking :D

That puzzles me. I believe that his motive was to murder James I because, as a catholic, he wanted to murder a protestant monarch, and replace him with a catholic one.

Although I agree with the abolition of monarchy, that wasn't his intention, and that isn't the topic of this thread.

Guinness 01-11-2012 10:41

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 1025874)
That puzzles me. I believe that his motive was to murder James I because, as a catholic, he wanted to murder a protestant monarch, and replace him with a catholic one.

Although I agree with the abolition of monarchy, that wasn't his intention, and that isn't the topic of this thread.

All I can say is you're easily puzzled, if you can't see that I was referring to him attempting to blow up parliament....which considering the pointless vote on the EU yesterday is very much 'on' thread.

MargaretR 01-11-2012 10:45

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1025875)
All I can say is you're easily puzzled, if you can't see that I was referring to him attempting to blow up parliament....which considering the pointless vote on the EU yesterday is very much 'on' thread.

His motive doesn't match - so can't be considered 'ahead of his time'.

DaveinGermany 01-11-2012 11:28

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 1025876)
His motive doesn't match - so can't be considered 'ahead of his time'.

Motive wasn't the point being made, it's the intent that was being highlighted, the blowing up of Parliament that was my understanding of the comment made by Guinness. :)

cashman 01-11-2012 11:32

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 1025880)
Motive wasn't the point being made, it's the intent that was being highlighted, the blowing up of Parliament that was my understanding of the comment made by Guinness. :)

Thats the way i took it.;)By the way, very interesting how this new poll also demonstrates this 95% P.M.S.L.

Neil 01-11-2012 12:25

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1025214)
Disgraceful, dedication to the job long gone out the window.:(

Is it dedication gone out the window?

As that doctors shift finished was another one not starting who could take over?

How long should a doctor work before being forced to leave so they don't become to tired to work?

mobertol 01-11-2012 13:03

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 1025891)
Is it dedication gone out the window?

As that doctors shift finished was another one not starting who could take over?

How long should a doctor work before being forced to leave so they don't become to tired to work?

I think that you are right here Neil -I know that on very long serious operations the sugeons do work in "shifts" and of course they all have different specialisations so at certain points in an operation different doctors come in and take over. This in operations like transplants and open heart and lung surgery...I imagine that it is both physically and mentally very demanding stressful work to do for longer than a certain period of time. For other more routine operations I think it is normal for them to finish off themselves. Usually in these cases they have several operations scheduled per day before their other work in the follow up care of patients on the wards and their other work as consultant specialists.

Margaret Pilkington 01-11-2012 13:04

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 1025891)
Is it dedication gone out the window?

As that doctors shift finished was another one not starting who could take over?

How long should a doctor work before being forced to leave so they don't become to tired to work?

If the doctor in question was working in a theatre setting then they usually finish the operation they have started...unless of course it is very close to the end.......I have seen consultants leave their registrar to close up the wound....but most of the team stay until the operation is finished.

In respect of a general shift....yes there is usually someone to take over.

My understanding of the situation(it could be wrong for a variety of reasons - this may not have been a true incident, but one made up to prove a point) is that a junior doctor was offered an opportunity to be involved in an operation which would provide a good learning experience........it seems that she turned this down so that her husband could go on a 'boys night out'.(a bit implausible?)

If this is true, it would not have endeared her to the team, the consultant would have been'miffed' and she probably would have got a bad report on her progress...which might affect her next allocation...and ultimately her employability at the end of her training...though she will probably go on to be a GP...far more lucrative financially.

cashman 01-11-2012 13:11

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 1025891)
Is it dedication gone out the window?

As that doctors shift finished was another one not starting who could take over?

How long should a doctor work before being forced to leave so they don't become to tired to work?

In my opinion yes it is dedication out the window, This was a trainee that sodded off.:rolleyes:

Less 01-11-2012 15:24

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 1025891)
Is it dedication gone out the window?

As that doctors shift finished was another one not starting who could take over?

How long should a doctor work before being forced to leave so they don't become to tired to work?

Sometimes in 'real life', there isn't someone to take over, I am 'just an engineer', I've stayed on the job for what I hoped would be an extra few minutes that have worked out to be several hours.

My patient was an inanimate object, I could walk away any time I wanted, I remained to see the job through, I had been taught dedication.

A Doctor? with a job to do? surely dedication is the first thing they should be taught? O.K. their shift has finished, but what is in front of them is different to a slab of meat, it is a living, breathing, human being, worthy of a little more thought than, time to clock off, sod this for a game of marbles?
:confused:

Margaret Pilkington 01-11-2012 15:51

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1025925)
Sometimes in 'real life', there isn't someone to take over, I am 'just an engineer', I've stayed on the job for what I hoped would be an extra few minutes that have worked out to be several hours.

My patient was an inanimate object, I could walk away any time I wanted, I remained to see the job through, I had been taught dedication.

A Doctor? with a job to do? surely dedication is the first thing they should be taught? O.K. their shift has finished, but what is in front of them is different to a slab of meat, it is a living, breathing, human being, worthy of a little more thought than, time to clock off, sod this for a game of marbles?
:confused:

And believe it or not some doctors do have comapssion for their patients and see them as people rather than just a condition to treat.

Mancie 02-11-2012 01:28

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1025928)
And believe it or not some doctors do have comapssion for their patients and see them as people rather than just a condition to treat.

Of course... and yet the recent insane NHS reforms may force GP's to see patients and have one eye on how much of their budget it may cost to give the best treatment.
95% of the medical profession told the government this so called NHS reform will lead to disaster...as for me choosing to attack the tories yes it's true.. I believe this government is causing infinitely more damage to this country than the EU could ever do.

Margaret Pilkington 02-11-2012 08:28

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
You should get a guide dog and a stick.

DaveinGermany 02-11-2012 11:28

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1026022)
You should get a guide dog and a stick.

Whose budget will that come out of ? ;)

Margaret Pilkington 02-11-2012 11:30

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
I'm hoping the Labour party might chip in :) He supports them so blindly I think it is their duty to look after one of their own.

Mancie 02-11-2012 22:37

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1026033)
I'm hoping the Labour party might chip in :) He supports them so blindly I think it is their duty to look after one of their own.

Here we go again...anyone that dares to criticise this destuctive tory lead government must be a lefty or support labour.. I don't support any party blindly.. but I do support almost any opposition to the tories.

Mancie 02-11-2012 22:43

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 1026032)
Whose budget will that come out of ? ;)

I've already got a stick..just need one of you tory lot to be the dog.:)

DaveinGermany 02-11-2012 23:31

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 1026107)
I've already got a stick. :)

Typo - I already get stick. ;) There, now doesn't that seem better ?

Mancie 03-11-2012 01:27

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 1026111)
Typo - I already get stick. ;) There, now doesn't that seem better ?

Yep I already get stick from the dog..but as I'm a gentleman can't mention any names..;)

Margaret Pilkington 03-11-2012 07:36

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 1026105)
Here we go again...anyone that dares to criticise this destuctive tory lead government must be a lefty or support labour.. I don't support any party blindly.. but I do support almost any opposition to the tories.

Well, had you criticised the last incumbents with such determined ardour, I might have believed you...but from what you have posted in the past, you believe they did no wrong(or if they did you were quite happy to keep schtum about it)...any dissenters were labelled tory supporters.....so now you know how it feels.
Welcome to the club Mancie.

Chris SUI JURIS 03-11-2012 13:47

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Who the one that voted no....come on own up ;)

Margaret Pilkington 03-11-2012 14:47

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
I have my suspicions.....it is someone who is always in step...with himself.......NO, not you Chris.

cashman 03-11-2012 18:34

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris SUI JURIS (Post 1026157)
Who the one that voted no....come on own up ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1026173)
I have my suspicions.....it is someone who is always in step...with himself.......NO, not you Chris.

I also have me suspicions n it sure aint our relatively new member.;)

Margaret Pilkington 03-11-2012 20:27

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Cashy, I think we are of one mind on this.

cashman 03-11-2012 22:05

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1026218)
Cashy, I think we are of one mind on this.

Probably, They say every circus needs a clown.?:D

Margaret Pilkington 03-11-2012 22:29

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Yes....we have one, and a spare!

accyman 05-11-2012 12:53

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
it wont be G.J he has a strong view that we should get a vote on the EU and im sure if asked to vote on wether we get a referendum on the EU he will remian true to his word

what theres been a vote?

how did it go ?

did he keep to his word or did he do what many MPs do and lie through his teeth to us and stab us in the back?

yes yes i know its same old same old but the guy has proven himself to be a liar and untrustworthy by his own actions and his actions alone.Time for a new labour representitive this ones duff ( not to be confused with duff beer)

Less 05-11-2012 12:57

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by accyman (Post 1026468)
Time for a new labour representitive this ones duff

Do you mean time for a new, new labour representative?
:confused:

accyman 05-11-2012 13:03

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1026470)
Do you mean time for a new, new labour representative?
:confused:

somat loike that yus

Eric 05-11-2012 13:39

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
I was reading in the "G#$%$ian" ... I know some of you think this is a dirty word:D:D ... that in the latest polls in GB the UKIP is ahead of the Lib-Dems. Ok, so help me out. Is there any significance to this? What does it say about British voter attitudes to the EU? Is it more than a temporary process, or is it a trend in British politics that can be analyzed in terms of domestic as well as in foreign policy? Does it reflect a growing right-wing extremism, or a new populism with a "Britain First" attitude? Is the UKIP anything like the Parti Quebecois, the Saskatchewan Party, and the Wild Rose Party in Alberta?

Margaret Pilkington 05-11-2012 14:05

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
I can't say.......but personally, I think that people have got just a bit fed up of the way the EU tells us we must tighten our belts, but spends stupid amounts of money.
The money they take from us is given to people who do not seem to have tightened their belts........in Greece it is/was possible to retire at 55(not sure if the recent events have changed this)...while some Lord or other is telling pensioners over here that they should work(in a voluntary capacity) in their own communities to earn their pension!

Pardom me for being so thick........I thought I contibuted throughout my working life to ensure I got the paltry pension that I draw.......our workers here are having their retirement date shifted on a regular basis......it maybe that some of them never live to draw their pension.

It is the insidious creeping rules and edicts that are issued from Brussels that make some of us feel like we didn't actually win the last war.......or might well not have bothered fighting it.
It is the fact that we follow the rules slavishly whilst other EU members seem to pick and choose which they will and won't follow....and no punishments are meted out to them.
It maybe the fact that we have been promised a say in our future in the EU and it has never materialised.
It could be any number of other facets of this undemocratic shambles that is causing these figures to be mooted......it may also be that people have told those who are canvassing for opinion, what they want them to know.
I just wish we had a leader with enough backbone and a pair of cojones to stand up to the mandarins in the EU and stick two fingers up to them.

Well Eric....you DID ask.

Margaret Pilkington 05-11-2012 14:08

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
It could be worse Eric...it could have said that the BNP were ahead of the Lib Dems......that would have been a worry.

Eric 05-11-2012 15:06

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1026484)
It could be worse Eric...it could have said that the BNP were ahead of the Lib Dems......that would have been a worry.

I know I aksed;) ... it's difficult to understand from over here ... all Federal parties in Canada are strongly "Canada First". NAFTA is just official recognition that Canada is America's largest trade partner. (A lot has to do with oil of course. The US would rather buy oil from a country which doesn't get peed off when someone farts within 10km of the koran.:eek:) Whatever, it still seems a little strange to me ... you know, having to have a separate UK-first party, one that wants trade relations, but without compromising national interests. I know that a lot of tory back benchers over there are "eurosceptic" ... but am I right in thinking that these are the same folks who want to bring back the feudal system and the death penalty for poaching?

Wynonie Harris 05-11-2012 16:47

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Much of the swing to UKIP can be attributed to the protest vote factor. A large proportion of the population are sick and tired of the EU and the way that the three major parties cravenly acquiesce to this organisation, whilst blatantly disregarding our national interests. Most people don't worry too much about UKIP's other policies.

The other factor is that many people's views don't fall neatly into conventional party lines and may include opinions that are actually contradictory in a party political sense. You can see many examples of this on Accyweb from those who claim they are traditional Labour/socialist types, but who espouse right wing Tory views on immigration, law and order and more.

Margaret Pilkington 05-11-2012 17:48

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
It is difficult to understand probably because you have federal parties which put Canada first...while over here it seems that we have parties who put everyone else first, and poor old Uk citizens last, and then they wonder why we are sick of just getting the crumbs.

We have been giving India( a burgeoning economy ) £280 million in aid...there is no rider that the aid is spent on Uk products and services( which would help sections of the economy to grow) Anyway, it has been announced that this aid is going to be drastically cut......but the money will still go overseas...probably to some Rwandan despot to spend on his private fleet of jets.

The money could be better used to provide better staffing levels in hospitals(removing people form the unemployment register) improving local economies by giving people a wage...money to spend......these people would also be off benefits and paying taxes.......something that HMRC should be encouraging the multi national conglomerates to do...but no.....the money goes overseas with no directives on how it could be spent.
So we are properly peed off about a lot of things...but the EU comes at the top of my list.
I WILL vote for ANY party that gives us a vote on our membership...not just promises a vote, we have followed that carrot before..it led nowhere.
Now my blood pressure is up......I'm off to find some calm...do we still have a calm room here?

Less 05-11-2012 18:42

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 1026500)
A large proportion of the population are sick and tired of the EU and the way that the three major parties cravenly acquiesce to this organisation,


I usually find your posts to be most accurate and would never consider correcting you, however the above, no, no, no. Has your maths failed you? I count 2 major parties and one minor party that would sell their souls for just a smattering of power, (to either party).

Please don't put me through this ever again.

Your loyal fan, Less
:D

Wynonie Harris 05-11-2012 18:48

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1026518)
I usually find your posts to be most accurate and would never consider correcting you, however the above, no, no, no. Has your maths failed you? I count 2 major parties and one minor party that would sell their souls for just a smattering of power, (to either party).

Please don't put me through this ever again.

Your loyal fan, Less
:D

Quite right, point taken! ;)

Mancie 06-11-2012 00:13

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 1026500)
Much of the swing to UKIP can be attributed to the protest vote factor. A large proportion of the population are sick and tired of the EU and the way that the three major parties cravenly acquiesce to this organisation, whilst blatantly disregarding our national interests. Most people don't worry too much about UKIP's other policies.

The other factor is that many people's views don't fall neatly into conventional party lines and may include opinions that are actually contradictory in a party political sense. You can see many examples of this on Accyweb from those who claim they are traditional Labour/socialist types, but who espouse right wing Tory views on immigration, law and order and more.

Well I'll have to agree.. if people feel so strongly about leaving the EU UKIP is the only sort shift.. but what about UKIP's views on no jobs for pregnent women?.. or the policey of abolishing the minimum wage?

Wynonie Harris 06-11-2012 00:20

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 1026589)
Well I'll have to agree.. if people feel so strongly about leaving the EU UKIP is the only sort shift.. but what about UKIP's views on no jobs for pregnent women?.. or the policey of abolishing the minimum wage?

It absolutely stinks, mate, just as much to me as it does to you. But, as I keep saying, you gotta think of UKIP as a sort of stalking horse. Lots of us vote for 'em and it puts the wind up the big two, so they start listening to our concerns on Europe! ;)

Wynonie Harris 06-11-2012 23:41

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
They want to squeeze more money out of us and they can't even spend the money they've got properly. Yet ANOTHER critical report from the EU auditors...for the 18th year in a row! :rolleyes:

Audit 'seriously undermines credibility' of EU spending - Telegraph

cashman 07-11-2012 07:52

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 1026825)
They want to squeeze more money out of us and they can't even spend the money they've got properly. Yet ANOTHER critical report from the EU auditors...for the 18th year in a row! :rolleyes:

Audit 'seriously undermines credibility' of EU spending - Telegraph

Thing is mate as this has always been the case, Why should any of our leaders view it differently this time?:rolleyes:

Margaret Pilkington 07-11-2012 07:52

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
You beat me to it Steve.

And the EU wants to ban books like The Famous Five and Paddington Bear. This is because they represent a traditional family where Pa goes out to work and Ma look after the family.......isn't that some kind of fascism?

accyman 07-11-2012 17:50

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1026841)
You beat me to it Steve.

And the EU wants to ban books like The Famous Five and Paddington Bear. This is because they represent a traditional family where Pa goes out to work and Ma look after the family.......isn't that some kind of fascism?

paddington may get off because he has a marmalade addiction therefore everything must be done to accomodate him and not upset the poor dear :D

churchfcrules 07-11-2012 21:30

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by accyman (Post 1026918)
paddington may get off because he has a marmalade addiction therefore everything must be done to accomodate him and not upset the poor dear :D

and a Peruvian Asylum seeker!

accyman 08-11-2012 02:31

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules (Post 1026946)
and a Peruvian Asylum seeker!

good point i have no doubt EU mandate will make paddington compulsary reading in schools along with titles such as..

Famous 5 - seek asylum

The Curious Case Of The Too Curved Bannana ( possible 18 title)

Planes Trains & Automobiles - it dosnt matter which just hang on tight until past immigration

All books will be written in 5 languages that no one gives a damn about

Wynonie Harris 15-11-2012 14:30

Re: Are you sick to the E.U.?
 
And now the jumped-up little nonentity at the head of the EU is trying to screw more money out of us...

EU tries to grab £6bn from Britain's EU rebate - Telegraph

Has Cameron got the bottle to tell him to get stuffed? It's to be hoped so, but I'll believe it when I see it. :rolleyes:


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