Nelson Mandela
Now there was a leader, a real leader who was head and shoulders above our present crop of posturing nobody's.Rest in peace a noble man, who forgave in order to achieve his greatness.
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Nelson Mandela
R.I.P. Nelson if anyone deserves that their future after death would be in some heavenly paradise I suspect it could be you .
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Mandela was the head of MK the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence, mobilising terrorist bombings, planting bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. |
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RIP Mr Mandela.
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Always was amazed they awarded a Nobel Prize to a terrorist leader. |
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O.K. the guy did much good after, people seem to forget what came before. or ignore it.
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Fair point, but as they say one mans Terrorist is another's Freedom Fighter.
To be fair the the BBC, they did mention him taking up arms and embracing violence, only briefly. All that said, if your race was being suppressed by a Minority state with extreme violence, would you not fight back? |
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I agree - the pacifist's way worked for Ghandi, but some regimes (apartheid) only get the message when violence is returned.
From what I have read about Ghandi, he was no saint either ;) , but in a non violent way, of course. |
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Every man has a past.....and there are many revered men who started out badly.
That he eventually made a difference in the world is what should be remembered and taken account of. He paid for his transgressions. He learned to be a diplomat, a man who could bring change. His life was anything but a cake walk. |
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Could not agree more Cashy.
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I don’t really see this cheerful kindly old man who converted from a selfless humble freedom fighter that the current eulogies would have us swallow.
The cloud that they would have us believe he is sat on up there irrefutably smells of cordite and blood and he is now reunited up there with his other fellow "freedom fighters" Colonel Muammar Gaddafi of Libya and President Suharto of Indonesia to name but two. |
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It is not compulsory to believe everything that the media tell us.
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For what it's worth - maybe true - conspiracy forums said he died a few months back, based on some of his relatives being seen undertaking some 'bereavement rituals'.
It is not incredible that the death was concealed and announcement delayed to suit 'a more suitable time' - it has provided publicity for a film premiere that Willie and his missus went to see this week, hasn't it? :rolleyes:- and there may well be diplomatic reasons that we aren't aware of. |
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He and the ANC accepted $60 million from Suharto and around $10million from the Libyan despot to fund and mobilise their bombing campaigns. Tellingly too Amnesty later refused to take up his case saying "They could not not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence" |
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Anybody remember Apartheid?
There is a lot of knocking Mandela and others for violence, even comparing him to dictators. When you and your race are oppressed are you tend to have very little choice, if you do what the Jew's did in the 1930's you will be murdered by the millions. The Black South Africans fought back against Apartheid, peaceful activism can only work for so long. I am not condoning the actions the ANC and others took, merely recognizing that there was no other option for them. The South African regime killed people who were dissidents, anyone who did not agree with them, Steve Biko may be the most recognized, but there were others. Nelson Mandela may not have been perfect, but who is. |
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Have the ANC done what they said they would do for the people? |
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BUT IMHO the ANC is corrupt to its core and just as racist as the National Party they replaced. S Africa law dictates that white males must be placed at the bottom of the Hire Lists for government jobs as well as Hire Lists for non-government jobs. South African Airways on behest of the Government recently ran a job advert with the ending tag line "whites need not apply" Whites can’t get jobs in their native land because of the laws passed by Mandela's African National Congress. |
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There are a lot of issues in the whole of Africa, some of it I have been fortunate to see first hand. We all have differing views on Nelson Mandela, but he was a man who stood up to injustice and oppression, were his methods right? where they just? not always, but the current state of affairs in South Africa cannot be attributed to him. South Africa has one of the highest levels of Poverty in the world, there are 51 Million people in South Africa, 41 Million are Black, depending who you believe there 30-50% of the Black Adult population are Unemployed. I don't for one second believe the ANC will make things better, Politicians will always look out for themselves. Personally I have a lot of respect for Nelson Mandela, IMHO he was one of the defining world leaders of the 20th century. |
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Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years? Its just too sickly to me, to make the guy out to be a saint.:rolleyes:
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As President of a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, did he pour resources into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Did he heck as like, Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people With the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighing heavily on the minds (a note of sarcasm here)…Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) deal was finalised, later subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft. All some would say to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay… Dead right .......a lot of good in later years for the worlds arms producers not too much evidence that he improved the lot of his people. |
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"It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal." |
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If you talk to South Africans, both black & white, including ANC supporters, the majority will say that it is a worse place to live now. When I first went there the exchange rate was R5.3/£1, it fell drastically and now it is around 16 to the £. The ANC have failed to meet the promises they have continued to make, yes, many rich blacks but many more are dirt poor. Perhaps worst of all is that racialism is still rife - if you are Xhosa then you have a better chance, but if you are from a minority tribe then you are down the list, way down. The political parties are in the main supported on tribal lines. It is no different to N.Ireland - ex-terrorists in the government. |
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Much like the majority of African countries
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"Is any application of ethics more of an assessment of the adjudicator than of the object of adjudication?" |
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You can sit from the comfort of a warm home with a guarantee of free speech, grabbing soundbites from google, from a position when the last time one of your countrymen was violently oppressed was 1066. And it's oh so easy to pretend that you would not use violence or terrorism to simply be treated as an equal or to protect your family.
You can expect that people will call you by the name given to you by your parents and not changed when you start school. You can expect not to be awoken by police breaking your door in because of the colour of your skin or the area where you live. Mandela was not an angel, he was a bloke...a bloke who screwed up in his youth and made good when he grew up (haven't we all to a lesser degree). For a very brief period he got South Africa, one of the most volatile countries on the planet, back on track. For one moment simply by wearing a rugby shirt he knocked the stuffing out of apartheid. His legacy of forgiveness, level headedness and oratory skills make him a great man. You cannot blame him for the current state of South Africa, one single man can only have an idea..it's up to everyone else to decide whether that idea is valid..and where politicians are concerned..nuff said! |
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Anyone can take a couple of lines from a post and ignore the three paragraph argument that went before |
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If the Nazis had invaded Britain in 1940, doubtless a British Resistance movement would have been sprung up. They would've planted bombs, killing Germans and probably a few Brits as well. What would they have been?...terrorists?...or freedom fighters?
What was Mandela supposed to do? Go cap-in-hand to the government and say "please, Mr De Clerk, stop this nasty apartheid system and let us be equal to you?" Minority government don't just stand aside and say, "after you, old boy". It takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears to wrest power from them. Innocents shouldn't have been killed in the process, but, then again, we've killed plenty of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe we're terrorists, too. And, yes, the post-apartheid government has not lived up to its promise - government don't usually - but I'll bet the majority in SA wouldn't want to go back to the old regime. Mandela was a great man - flawed as are many great men - but a great man nonetheless. |
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Opinion changes & disappears with time Wynonie. No one can change their past. They can change their future. choose to do good with the time that remains. No doubt Nelson Mandela followed that path of righteousness in his later years as have Gerry Adams and his mate McGuinness. I’ll not be elbowing anybody out of the way to be a pall-bearer at their funerals though.
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Though it does happen Quite a great deal here on AccyWeb, take for example my above sentence. I put it on not to canonize nor to condemn a man that has been prominent during my life time. Within 30 minutes I was told basically, to slow down with my praise and given a list of the bad things in the guys life and the same poster keeps reproducing that post in various forms if anyone even slightly offers the man praise. Well, allow me to repeat myself then explain slowly why I said what I said. Quote:
Why? not because I was ignorant of his early life, nor did I think he was perfect once he got into power. It was said because he had been a guy that did do bad things but later on tried, to do good things. I'm an Atheist, but from what I understand some guy said something about a sinner repenting and being welcomed back. I didn't say it was him, I said it could be him. He was a man, he wasn't perfect, I didn't try to make him out as bad nor good, just a message of goodbye, I didn't say he would get in, I just hinted that when placed on the scales his good might outweigh his bad and allow him some peace. ;) |
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Would that we had some man with such skills to lead us......all we have are self serving braying donkeys. |
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In the words of the great man himself, " I will bow to your greater knowledge in this area" |
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:p |
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Mandela promised many things in his Rainbow Nation, as do his successors, but achievements lack far behind the promises. |
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I pay tribute to Nelson Mandela .
After his release from prison he showed himself to be a man of integrity . He opposed revenge in favour of peace , forgiveness and reconciliation . He wore no mask . What you saw was the real Madiba . He was and still is an inspiration for many . May the cynics be confounded , and may South Africa develop into a peaceful and forgiving country where justice flourishes . Thanks Nelson Mandela , you are a giant amongst dwarfs . |
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And, yes, the SA government has far from fulfilled its promises. It's still a step in the right direction away from the hateful apartheid regime and whatever the deficiencies of the present administration, I doubt that the majority would want to return to the previous system. |
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No wonder the Indians took scalps. Watch the old western movies, the men's boots always had fancy frills around the top. I bet the film stars nor the rest realised that tradition came from raping, killing then abusing the woman's privates by cutting away the fur and stretching it over the boots! Also, when they did a population census in the late 18 hundreds a white man counted as one, a Negro counted as half, a Chinaman counted as a quarter and the Indians counted as zero. |
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Can't disagree Eric None of the above numpties allowed themselves I don't think to be filmed at a rally seemingly singing along with a song that has the words "Kill the Whites" chorusing several times. Now I don't know, when it dates from, some febrile poster on here will undoubtedly advise me. Maybe it was made in the same studios as the Apollo moonlandings, looks convincing enough to me. I'll leave you and others to seek it out and decide for yourself. |
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The shame is you scorn the one real achievement made by 'white man', the moon landings! So far none of the natives have been killed or exploited by the explorers. |
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Wiki tells us amongst other things about scalping: Scalping was practiced by the ancient Scythians of Eurasia. Herodotus the Greek historian, wrote of the Scythians in 440 BC: The Scythian soldier scrapes the scalp clean of flesh and softening it by rubbing between their hands, uses it thenceforth as a napkin. The Scyth is proud of these scalps and hangs them from his bridle rein; the greater the number of such napkins that a man can show, the more highly is he esteemed among them. Many make themselves cloaks by sewing a quantity of these scalps together. |
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If I was your School teacher I would write on the bottom of the page, 2 out of ten, can do a great deal better, see me after class. But I'm not your Teacher so would you mind terribly if I just said, 'What a load of familiar manure'. By the way Mick was nearly upset that you didn't turn up today, Though Cashy, (Ollie) asked why after 30 to 40 years, would you want to see him? |
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How much freedom would folks in England give up in exchange for a stronger currency ... ? Oh, and trains that run on time; nearly forgot about that one:D |
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In the words of the great man himself, " I will bow to your greater knowledge in this area" I must try harder. |
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I was getting bored with your efforts before, now you act like a 78 with a crack in it. Perhaps it's time you moved up a level? Find yourself someone that might just be impressed with your attempts at being a superior being? |
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On the odd occasion you show a valid argument worth a debate, when cornered you invariably revert to name calling
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Your views on Nelson Mandela are compromised |
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Just the name Eugene Terre Blanche alongside what he stood for is enough to bury apartheid forever. That Nelson Mandela stood up for the millions of his oppressed countrymen/women against people of his mentality shows what a strong and courageous human being he was. Whatever his past, he went on to be a great humanitarian. I think he'll be a great role model for millions of people for many years to come.
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Since Mandela took over it has become a third world country Neil. Hells teeth, the Sedibeng Brewery even brews Guinness :) |
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The phrase used is delovoping country, however I cannot find South Africa on the United Nations list. Maybe you can provide a link to back up your claim? |
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I am sure you must have been there, would you live there? I work with a few people who have lived there and have heard some not very nice stories. |
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Calling somewhwere a 'third world country' is a derogatory cliche...and like all cliches it is used too much(and badly) purely for dramatic effect.
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My brother has worked/still works extensively in SA, it isn't a place he likes to go to.
He is always glad when he is sitting on the plane waiting to fly back to Sydney. |
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I do like South Africa, we visited just after the 2010 world cup.....I had a few days to look round. But I did feel a lot safer there than Nigeria, armed guards at the hotel, or other places I get to go to. Shame really |
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Many English people like to moan about our Country but there are not that many better and safer places to live and many worse
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I would argue many European countries are safer n better.
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Here you go Mr Sorenson...;) |
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And the Catholic Herald is a widely read publication?
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:o |
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*You know who you are. :p |
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If you find the place so tedious why do you bother to come on here?
It appears that you think you are far superior to the mere mortals that you so deride. You lump us all together and toss insults at us...you have only been here two minutes...well no, you have been registered since 2008, but less than a thousand posts in that time. You have a very high opinion of yourself...shame it isn't shared by many of us on here. |
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...NOT! A nice enough guy in person, but, Peeuogh! your posts stink worse than a cat's litter tray that's 3 months overdue for emptying. :( |
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If you mean someone else, then how dare you be so typically (of you) petty. Is that really the best you can do? Not even worth the effort. However I suspect Your fingernails while you are at work could just be brown and smelly from scratching your brain to help you through the day. (Unlike you, I'm only joking, I don't need to hit so low). :D P.S. Let me know when you give in, I can carry on but find it more tedious than shooting fish in a barrel, putting your whimsy's down.:D |
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[QUOTE=DtheP47;1086743] A bit like the AccyWeb I reckon Margaret with a similar quota of incompetents, moral midgets, clowns, lunatics, dirty finger nails* and outright crooks.
You know what they say, DtheP47: "It takes one to know one". |
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My conclusion was always the same: a third world country is a country where you cannot trust the police, and where the people of the country loathe and fear their police force. ..........................on that basis it makes us a third world country.:rolleyes: |
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And that's an opinion that matters a lot in the future. |
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Yep but some still think were Great Britain.:D:D:D:D
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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...fDockGreen.jpg |
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I just wonder, now that Mandela's calming influence has gone, how long before the ANC(which has some rather unsavory people in it) decides they don't need to be a 'Rainbow Nation' any more. The lot of the bulk of its voters hasn't improved much and they know it, freedom doesn't buy food and land. Zimbabwe's extreme solutions may begin to have more and more appeal.
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the problem is there is no alternative to the ANC
In next years election, the ANC are guaranteed to win. Its not healthy |
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Did anyone see the funky sign language man on stage with all the dignitaries yesterday? He looked like he was translating with attitude. It has just been on BBC News that he was a fake, he was actually stood next to Obama at one point. Bit of an embarrassment for the organisers. Gave me a laugh though.
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Quite possibly because it is still tribal and the Xhosa are the majority, but people still live in hope. I think you have got it in one. |
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