Originally Posted by Jim Procter (Post 1086468)

Now there was a leader, a real leader who was head and shoulders above our present crop of posturing nobody's.Rest in peace a noble man, who forgave in order to achieve his greatness.

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1086472)

R.I.P. Nelson if anyone deserves that their future after death would be in some heavenly paradise I suspect it could be you .

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086481)

Whoa there a minute Less.

Mandela was the head of MK the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence, mobilising terrorist bombings, planting bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Originally Posted by Sunflower49 (Post 1086486)

I knew somebody would point this out ;)

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy (Post 1086499)

Fair point, but as they say one mans Terrorist is another's Freedom Fighter.

To be fair the the BBC, they did mention him taking up arms and embracing violence, only briefly.

All that said, if your race was being suppressed by a Minority state with extreme violence, would you not fight back?

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 1086492)

It is valid point though.
Always was amazed they awarded a Nobel Prize to a terrorist leader.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1086502)

By using that analogy, the IRA would also have been freedom fighters, Theres a big difference to me to fighting the system n those in power, to slaughtering the innocent.

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy (Post 1086530)

Anybody remember Apartheid?

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy (Post 1086530)

Anybody remember Apartheid?

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy (Post 1086530)

Nelson Mandela may not have been perfect, but who is.

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 1086534)

And don't forget that Mandela shared the Peace Prize with F. W. de Klerk.

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086533)

The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. BG

BUT

IMHO the ANC is corrupt to its core and just as racist as the National Party they replaced.
S Africa law dictates that white males must be placed at the bottom of the Hire Lists for government jobs as well as Hire Lists for non-government jobs. South African Airways on behest of the Government recently ran a job advert with the ending tag line "whites need not apply" Whites can’t get jobs in their native land because of the laws passed by Mandela's African National Congress.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1086546)

Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years?:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086551)

A lot of good in later years eh? let’s see the proof on that Mr C
As President of a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, did he pour resources into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Did he heck as like, Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people
With the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighing heavily on the minds (a note of sarcasm here)…Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane
Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) deal was finalised, later subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft. All some would say to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…
Dead right .......a lot of good in later years for the worlds arms producers not too much evidence that he improved the lot of his people.

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 1086532)

Is South Africa a better place now?
Have the ANC done what they said they would do for the people?

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1086546)

Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years? Its just too sickly to me, to make the guy out to be a saint.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1086546)

Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years? Its just too sickly to me, to make the guy out to be a saint.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1086554)

And the finale of the piece you forgot to mark as a quote states...

"It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal."

Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1086592)

His legacy of forgiveness, level headedness and oratory skills make him a great man.

You cannot blame him for the current state of South Africa, one single man can only have an idea..it's up to everyone else to decide whether that idea is valid..and where politicians are concerned..nuff said!

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086594)

Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1086598)

See what I did there?....

Anyone can take a couple of lines from a post and ignore the three paragraph argument that went before

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1086472)

R.I.P. Nelson if anyone deserves that their future after death would be in some heavenly paradise I suspect it could be you .

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1086472)

R.I.P. Nelson if anyone deserves that their future after death would be in some heavenly paradise I suspect it could be you .

Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1086592)

His legacy of forgiveness, level headedness and oratory skills make him a great man.

You cannot blame him for the current state of South Africa, one single man can only have an idea..it's up to everyone else to decide whether that idea is valid..and where politicians are concerned..nuff said!

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1086604)

It's a shame when people read but don't understand.

Though it does happen Quite a great deal here on AccyWeb, take for example my above sentence.

I put it on not to canonize nor to condemn a man that has been prominent during my life time.

Within 30 minutes I was told basically, to slow down with my praise and given a list of the bad things in the guys life and the same poster keeps reproducing that post in various forms if anyone even slightly offers the man praise.

Well, allow me to repeat myself then explain slowly why I said what I said.



If you notice I didn't go on about the good things he has done, nor did I list the bad things he did in his early life.

Why? not because I was ignorant of his early life, nor did I think he was perfect once he got into power.

It was said because he had been a guy that did do bad things but later on tried, to do good things.

I'm an Atheist, but from what I understand some guy said something about a sinner repenting and being welcomed back.

I didn't say it was him, I said it could be him.

He was a man, he wasn't perfect, I didn't try to make him out as bad nor good, just a message of goodbye, I didn't say he would get in, I just hinted that when placed on the scales his good might outweigh his bad and allow him some peace.


;)

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086607)

Thanks Less for your enunciation.
In the words of the great man himself, " I will bow to your greater knowledge in this area"

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 1086601)

If the Nazis had invaded Britain in 1940, doubtless a British Resistance movement would have been sprung up. They would've planted bombs, killing Germans and probably a few Brits as well. What would they have been?...terrorists?...or freedom fighters?

What was Mandela supposed to do? Go cap-in-hand to the government and say "please, Mr De Clerk, stop this nasty apartheid system and let us be equal to you?" Minority government don't just stand aside and say, "after you, old boy". It takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears to wrest power from them. Innocents shouldn't have been killed in the process, but, then again, we've killed plenty of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe we're terrorists, too.

And, yes, the post-apartheid government has not lived up to its promise - government don't usually - but I'll bet the majority in SA wouldn't want to go back to the old regime.

Mandela was a great man - flawed as are many great men - but a great man nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 1086615)

but achievements lack far behind the promises.

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 1086615)

I think you will find that the original inhabitants of SA were not the Xhosa, who are the main strength of the ANC. The original inhabitants, the Khoikhoi and San peoples were persecuted and slaughtered by the invading tribes from the North, the Bantu, but particularly the Xhosa.
Mandela promised many things in his Rainbow Nation, as do his successors, but achievements lack far behind the promises.

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 1086641)

The original inhabitants of the area known as the USA were Indians who were persecuted and slaughtered by the invading white men. The situation has been repeated many times all over the world, but you can't turn back the clock.

And, yes, the SA government has far from fulfilled its promises. It's still a step in the right direction away from the hateful apartheid regime and whatever the deficiencies of the present administration, I doubt that the majority would want to return to the previous system.

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 1086618)

Sounds a lot like Cameron ... Clegg ... our own Stephen Harper ... Obama ... Hollande ... I think it's time for "etc." Come to think of it, "A fit land for heroes" didn't turn out all that well either. Maybe some thought should be given to the alternatives to what Mandela did for South Africa ... "bloody mess" comes to mind. Kinda like the messes the European colonial powers left all over the continent. And before complaining too much about the state of South Africa, sorry enough though it is, look around the continent and see what has been achieved in the Congo, Mali, CAR, Libya (boat trip anyone:rolleyes:) ... time for "etc" again. The "Arab Spring" has sprung right into winter, skipping summer and fall. And the collapse of the Soviet Union ... he EVIL EMPIRE ... has given us Putin, mmmm ... oh, and Chelski. In a world led by incompetents, moral midgets, clowns, lunatics, and outright crooks, Mandela was a stand out.

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086645)

In our world of err? incompetents, moral midgets, clowns, lunatics, and outright crooks, Mandela was a stand out.
Can't disagree Eric
None of the above numpties allowed themselves I don't think to be filmed at a rally seemingly singing along with a song that has the words "Kill the Whites" chorusing several times.
Now I don't know, when it dates from, some febrile poster on here will undoubtedly advise me. Maybe it was made in the same studios as the Apollo moonlandings, looks convincing enough to me. I'll leave you and others to seek it out and decide for yourself.

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1086643)

Goodness me, didn't they just deserve it? Going around defending their women from rape physical torture and starvation.

No wonder the Indians took scalps.

Watch the old western movies, the men's boots always had fancy frills around the top.
I bet the film stars nor the rest realised that tradition came from raping, killing then abusing the woman's privates by cutting away the fur and stretching it over the boots!

Also, when they did a population census in the late 18 hundreds a white man counted as one, a Negro counted as half, a Chinaman counted as a quarter and the Indians counted as zero.

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1086646)

White mans superiority and you are never far apart.

The shame is you scorn the one real achievement made by 'white man', the moon landings!
So far none of the natives have been killed or exploited by the explorers.

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086649)

The one real achievement made by the white man... you're having a giraffe Wizz, and don't give me the old guff about the "non stick frying pan "

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 1086555)

I have been to RSA quite a few times visiting family, during and post apartheid.
If you talk to South Africans, both black & white, including ANC supporters, the majority will say that it is a worse place to live now. When I first went there the exchange rate was R5.3/£1, it fell drastically and now it is around 16 to the £. The ANC have failed to meet the promises they have continued to make, yes, many rich blacks but many more are dirt poor. Perhaps worst of all is that racialism is still rife - if you are Xhosa then you have a better chance, but if you are from a minority tribe then you are down the list, way down. The political parties are in the main supported on tribal lines.
It is no different to N.Ireland - ex-terrorists in the government.

Originally Posted by Less (Post 1086656)

Oh Dear, you had almost made it into positive points, but the last two posts prove that your intellect is just a touch threadbare.

If I was your School teacher I would write on the bottom of the page,

2 out of ten, can do a great deal better, see me after class.


But I'm not your Teacher so would you mind terribly if I just said, 'What a load of familiar manure'.

By the way Mick was nearly upset that you didn't turn up today, Though Cashy, (Ollie) asked why after 30 to 40 years, would you want to see him?

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086667)

One of the wierd ironies of the internet is that just as it can expand ones knowledge infinately, it frequently encourages an arrested adolescence.

In the words of the great man himself, " I will bow to your greater knowledge in this area"

I must try harder.

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 1086641)

The original inhabitants of the area known as the USA were Indians who were persecuted and slaughtered by the invading white men. The situation has been repeated many times all over the world, but you can't turn back the clock.

And, yes, the SA government has far from fulfilled its promises. It's still a step in the right direction away from the hateful apartheid regime and whatever the deficiencies of the present administration, I doubt that the majority would want to return to the previous system.

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086645)

some febrile poster on here will undoubtedly advise me.

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086649)

don't give me the old guff about the "non stick frying pan "

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086667)

One of the wierd ironies of the internet is that just as it can expand ones knowledge infinately

Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1086695)

On the odd occasion you show a valid argument worth a debate, when cornered you invariably revert to name calling



And at the risk of thread wander, the following comment shows that you have a tedious lack of scientific acumen regarding the benefits gained from space exploration



and, although I really hate to be pedantic, but because you post claiming to be erudite...



Pity that the ironic internet doesn't extend to spelling 'weird' and 'infinitely' correctly when trying to consolidate an argument. Either you are seriously uneducated or a quote thief?

Your views on Nelson Mandela are compromised

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 1086690)

Maybe the Yanks did it right and the Dutch and whoever else should have slaughtered all the inhabitants of Africa :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086721)

Since Mandela took over it has become a third world country Neil.

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy (Post 1086722)

According to the UN there is no `third world` it was a phrase coined during the cold war, meaning a country not an ally of Nato (First World) or of the USSR (Second World).
The phrase used is delovoping country, however I cannot find South Africa on the United Nations list. Maybe you can provide a link to back up your claim?

Originally Posted by Neil (Post 1086723)

I am sure you must have been there, would you live there?
I work with a few people who have lived there and have heard some not very nice stories.

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy (Post 1086722)

According to the UN there is no `third world` it was a phrase coined during the cold war, meaning a country not an ally of Nato (First World) or of the USSR (Second World).
The phrase used is delovoping country, however I cannot find South Africa on the United Nations list. Maybe you can provide a link to back up your claim?

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1086740)

And the Catholic Herald is a widely read publication?

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1086740)

And the Catholic Herald is a widely read publication?

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086743)

A bit like the AccyWeb I reckon Margaret with a similar quota of incompetents, moral midgets, clowns, lunatics, dirty finger nails* and outright crooks.

*You know who you are. :p

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086743)

dirty finger nails*.

*You know who you are. :p

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1086740)

And the Catholic Herald is a widely read publication?

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086481)

Whoa there a minute Less.

Mandela was the head of MK the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence, mobilising terrorist bombings, planting bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Originally Posted by DtheP47 (Post 1086734)

What makes a country third world? | CatholicHerald.co.uk

Here you go Mr Sorenson...;)

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1086785)

on that basis it makes us a third world country.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1086785)

Quote:
My conclusion was always the same: a third world country is a country where you cannot trust the police, and where the people of the country loathe and fear their police force. ..........................on that basis it makes us a third world country.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by DAV007 (Post 1086883)

the problem is there is no alternative to the ANC
In next years election, the ANC are guaranteed to win.
Its not healthy

Originally Posted by DAV007 (Post 1086883)

the problem is there is no alternative to the ANC
In next years election, the ANC are guaranteed to win.
Its not healthy

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 1086945)

Quite possibly because it is still tribal and the Xhosa are the majority, but people still live in hope. I think you have got it in one.