Degree Level for nursing

jaysay · 12-11-2009, 08:48

BBC NEWS | Health | Nursing to become graduate entry

Its been announced that as from 2013 anyone wanting to enter the nursing profession will have to be educated to degree level, I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. To me nursing has always been about vocation, it takes a very special person to take on looking after the sick, I for one couldn't do it. Okay there has to be a pretty high level of education in this day and age, but to insist on the level may put off many young people from entering the profession, therefore leaving the NHS dangerously understaffed

Tealeaf · 12-11-2009, 09:20

I heard this too and I am a little confused. Does it mean that someone has to have a degree before they enter the nursing profession or does it mean that after 3 years training to be a nurse you end up a bachelor of nursing? If it is the former, are people with a degree, say joint honours (1st class) in media and lesbian studies qualified to walk on to wards and then stick needles in patient's bums? And if it is the latter, will people spend their years training in the lecture room on ethnic and gay awareness courses? Will they know how to do hospital corners or empty bedpans...can anyone help to clear this up?

cashman · 12-11-2009, 09:26

as its been in Wales since 2004, reckon the best course would be to consult wi the taffys, management n nurses before embarking on this.

Margaret Pilkington · 12-11-2009, 11:07

I think it means that they must be educated to a degree level, not necessarily to actually have a degree, but to have that level of education.

I think that it is a backward step. Nursing is a practical skill.....needs a hands on approach.
I am glad I did my nursing when I did, because with these restrictions I would never have got a chance.
I loved the job because it was never the same two days running.
I loved dealing with patients, and doing my best for them.
I think that people who have a degree level of education willp robably choose careers that are more lucrative and with a better career structure, and I can see that the basic tasks (toileting, btm washing, showering, feeding patients) will be delegated to the care assistant, HCA, auxiliary....and that isn't good. You get to know the most about your patients by being involved in every aspect of their care.....which includes the mundane(although I didn't find these tasks so)tasks.

If a person wishes to do the technical stuff, and they are educated to degree level, let them become doctors.
Nursing care(care, being the operative word here) has not improved by making the nurse better educated.....the giving of care is intuitive, and common sense based.

jaysay · 12-11-2009, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I think it means that they must be educated to a degree level, not necessarily to actually have a degree, but to have that level of education.

I think that it is a backward step. Nursing is a practical skill.....needs a hands on approach.
I am glad I did my nursing when I did, because with these restrictions I would never have got a chance.
I loved the job because it was never the same two days running.
I loved dealing with patients, and doing my best for them.
I think that people who have a degree level of education willp robably choose careers that are more lucrative and with a better career structure, and I can see that the basic tasks (toileting, btm washing, showering, feeding patients) will be delegated to the care assistant, HCA, auxiliary....and that isn't good. You get to know the most about your patients by being involved in every aspect of their care.....which includes the mundane(although I didn't find these tasks so)tasks.

If a person wishes to do the technical stuff, and they are educated to degree level, let them become doctors.
Nursing care(care, being the operative word here) has not improved by making the nurse better educated.....the giving of care is intuitive, and common sense based.

Was hoping you would reply to this Margaret, and I have to say, having been some one who's been on the other side of the bed pan or so to say,

I totally agree with everything you've said, think there's a saying in the nursing profession these days about the new high tech nurses "too posh to wash" can't see things getting better anytime soon

Margaret Pilkington · 12-11-2009, 11:25

Yes, Jaysay.......I was sister on the ward when some of these degree students were allocated to us for their educational needs, they did not want to be involved with basic care tasks.
They wanted to do ECG's, they wanted to do other technical stuff, but they didn't want to do pre-op shaves, toileting of patients, helping with hygiene needs, feeding patients, wiping bottoms.
They really didn't want to be nurses, they wanted to be technicians....to flit in and do a task they considered to be commensurate with their level of education and then go on to the next technical task.
What is more, some of them felt that the auxiliaries, care assistants,HCA's were beneath them.....but believe me these care assistants, auxiliaries, HCA's had the very best bit of the job......actually nursing patients....making a difference to their day, making them feel comfortable.......and of course helping them to return to full health.
these degree students gave the impression that the auxiliaries were educationally inferior to them.......the experience that they had gained by looking after countless patients was not considered to be 'education'.

I have had the pleasure of working with some very capable, kind, caring auxilairy nurses.
I learned a lot from them....because they had good common sense and a caring attitude....and I know who I would like to be looked after by if ever I were ill....and it wouldn't necessarily be a degree educated Nurse.

garinda · 12-11-2009, 11:54

I think it's great if nurses want to do a degree, if they can find the time inbetween working, as Lettie has recently done, but I don't necessarily think academic qualifications make a nurse a good nurse.

I've recently come into contact with some nurses with no people skills at all, and who shouldn't be employed to deal with people at all, nevermind nurse them. On the other hand I've seen auxillaries who provided wonderful nursing care.

garinda · 12-11-2009, 12:15

Bring back Matrons.

Though would a male one be called a Patron?

Margaret Pilkington · 12-11-2009, 12:32

Bringing back matrons/patrons doesn't work....the structure of nursing was different in the days of the real Matron........and you can never back pedal to those days from the past......there has been far to much political meddling.

I am not against nurses getting a degree if that is what they want to do, but I am against requiring people who want to become nurses from having to have that level of education. It will exclude many candidates who would make excellent(practical) nurses because of their perceived lack of educational ability.

West Ender · 12-11-2009, 14:28

I can add nothing to what Margaret P said, she sums it all up perfectly. We need nurses who smooth brows as well as nurses who know how much nasty medicine to give.

jaysay · 12-11-2009, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Yes, Jaysay.......I was sister on the ward when some of these degree students were allocated to us for their educational needs, they did not want to be involved with basic care tasks.
They wanted to do ECGs, they wanted to do other technical stuff, but they didn't want to do pre-op shaves, toileting of patients, helping with hygiene needs, feeding patients, wiping bottoms.
They really didn't want to be nurses, they wanted to be technicians....to flit in and do a task they considered to be commensurate with their level of education and then go on to the next technical task.
What is more, some of them felt that the auxiliaries, care assistants,HCAs were beneath them.....but believe me these care assistants, auxiliaries, HCAs had the very best bit of the job......actually nursing patients....making a difference to their day, making them feel comfortable.......and of course helping them to return to full health.
these degree students gave the impression that the auxiliaries were educationally inferior to them.......the experience that they had gained by looking after countless patients was not considered to be 'education'.

I have had the pleasure of working with some very capable, kind, caring auxiliary nurses.
I learned a lot from them....because they had good common sense and a caring attitude....and I know who I would like to be looked after by if ever I were ill....and it wouldn't necessarily be a degree educated Nurse.

Can't agree more Margaret about auxiliaries(Oggies) I have come across some crackers over the years, most of whom have now retired, mores the pity, they were worth their weight in gold on a busy ward, especially at night if there was a run on. In fact I was actually talking to an lass who was an Oggy on E3, during my latest stay in the Royal, I've seen her quite a few times recently, she decided to pack in the nursing side and trained to be phlebotomist (think that's the official title, better known as the Dracula squad) but we still remembered the old days on E3

accyman · 12-11-2009, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

BBC NEWS | Health | Nursing to become graduate entry

Its been announced that as from 2013 anyone wanting to enter the nursing profession will have to be educated to degree level, I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. To me nursing has always been about vocation, it takes a very special person to take on looking after the sick, I for one couldn't do it. Okay there has to be a pretty high level of education in this day and age, but to insist on the level may put off many young people from entering the profession, therefore leaving the NHS dangerously understaffed

so will we now be paying for the polish etc to get a degree so they can be nurses here i wonder

edit:

i wonder if part of teh degree will be how to wash your hands

Eric · 12-11-2009, 18:02

I think it's just part of the trend towards having degrees for everything ... Hamburger University, the intellectual and philosophical core of McDonald's, is a case in point. Hamburger Flipping 101 is a pre-requisite for Advanced Mustard Application

Guinness · 12-11-2009, 18:41

Bah! When was the last time any of you actually saw a 'real nurse' doing any nursing?

Those that do all the 'nursing' jobs like :- looking after patients (soon to be known as customers..I kid you not), changing beds, cleaning up bodily fluids, enemas, shaving, etc..etc..etc.. are not in fact qualified nurses..they are care assistants in all but name, and deserve recognition for their unrewarded work.

'Real nurses' are the ones stood at 'nurse stations' who stare at you, with vacant looks on their face, should you ask anything about the welfare of people on their wards. They are the ones that spout platitudes like 'I don't know which ward he's on now, I wasn't on shift when he moved' or 'I'm training here, I usually work in the <insert greek word here> department'. They are overpaid, underworked and spend most of their time bleating about car parking, unsociable hours and how hard done to they are.

Its these 'real nurses' that will be educated to degree level..and why not..they do beggar all else, they may as well jump on the 'advanced mustard application'(©Eric 2009) bandwagon

BERNADETTE · 12-11-2009, 19:43

Well I have just got back from Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool and believe you me the nurses on the ward I was visiting were all doing the jobs caring nurses should be prepared to do without question. IE besides caring for the children on the ward they were cleaning beds and cots that had been vacated, making them up ready for the next patients, bringing sick bowls and toilet pans to the kids that needed them etc. You don't need a degree to be a nurse but you do need to care about the patients in your care IMHO.