How Patriotic?

[Mik Dickinson]

Now Bob for some home truths.I ahve lived over here for going on 22 years.Although i like the way and standard of life i have over here there are still some things that bug me.i.e.No matter how well you do or applicate yourself you will always be held incompetent because you are non German.The majority of this countrys problems are due to immigrants, European or not.When it all boils down to it the Germans are still waiting for the reincarnation of Hitler, some of them openly say that too.
It is not often that England excels on the sporting circuit against its international rivals so when it happens why in hells name can i not revel in it? After all when the boot is on the other foot i have to take some real stick believe me.

[Tealeaf]

I just feel sorry for the Portugese and what is about to hit them..there they'll be, out for a traditional late evening stroll..mum, dad, the kids and grandma through the centre of Lisbon or Oporto...maybe they'll pop into the local restaurant, with their favouite window seat for a salt cod supper..and then?

The door crashes open and in staggers half a dozen beer-bellied, shirtless, red cross tattooed, head shaved, semi-inebriated examples of Englands Finest....."Vindaloo, Vindaloo, Vindaloo...", these moronic imbeciles chant. The locals turn their attention away to the window: there, one further member of the tribe is busy vomiting down the front of the window while his mate, in the splendid Cross of St George shirt, is attempting to disperse the carrot-laden matter by urinating it all away....

Are'nt we all proud to be English and display the cross of St George on an occaision such as this?

[Mik Dickinson]

Well me sis and Bros in law have just come back from Portugal and they say there is a big British contingent down there anyway.What you have described T is a normal holiday in Espania.I really believe that the authorities have got a lot of stuff under control.I am more bothered about the terrorists than the4 Hooligans at the mo

[Tealeaf]

What I've described Mik, is a normal saturday night in Accy...but you're right - the bu**ars are everywhere. As for the terr threat, the best thing there is not to worry about it - if it happens, it happens.

[Acrylic-bob]

All right Mik, I do concede that the Germans are an arrogant lot of militaristic snobs. And I do agree that it is hard to feel compassion for a nation that have their sense of humour removed at birth and have the bare faced cheek to describe this England as 'Die land ohne Musik' (that should read as 'the country without music' sorry, my german is below par) But as Queen Victoria discovered, the best way to deal with them is with compassion, because while they may think that they are superior, we, being English, are and always were. And that is the way to get up their noses.

[Ceejache]

But that is why it is important to show that not all flag-bearing English behave like cro-magnon man. I have grown up throughout what I suppose has been the 'height' of lager lout culture (I am 28) and I have certainly never behaved in such a manner, neither have any of my football-loving, like-a-drink-to-go-with-it friends.

[Tealeaf]

I just complain about their beer. They don't like that.

[Ceejache]

Why do they refer to us as 'land without music'? I know most of the 'well-known' composers were German (or from the Austro-Germanic School), whilst our 'best' are Tallis, Byrd and Handel. Also - when did they call us this? It would have to have been pre-20th century as I would consider Vaughan Williams to be amongst the best of the symphonists, Elgar had a bit of a talent also. Curious as to why?

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Ceejache

Elgar had a bit of a talent also. ?

He had a bit more than a bit. CJ.....you ever been to an American Graduation ceremony...the highlight ain't music by Gerswin or Sousa..but Elgar. The trouble is, we don't appreciate hime anywhere near enough.

[Acrylic-bob]

I remember the quote but, alas, not the person who made it. I suppose I could find out if you really wanted to know. It comes from the second half of the ninteenth century. Tallis and Byrd were not well known then and indeed were regarded as unfashionable here too. Handel was German and so didn't count. I have the impression that at the time the comment was made because so much 'English' music was based on folk music and foreign imports from france italy and Austria/Germany. It does not appear to strike them as contradictory that Bach, Beethoven, Haydn, all took their influences from France and Italy. Or that Beethoven held the British National Anthem to be an exemplar of it's kind. or indeed that Schubert,Schumann and Mahler based much of their output on folk tunes.

you see there are loads of sticks to beat the germans with, if that is what you want to do, most of them helpfully provided by the Germans themselves. The problem with arrogance is that it makes you blind.

[Acrylic-bob]

Here we go, I made a mistake it is 'Das' not 'Die'. i am grateful to len Mullender at Musicweb.uk.net for the following:-

The mentioned quote is the title of a book published at first in 1904 (the last edition took place in Munich 1915) by a scholar whose complete name was Oskar Adolf Hermann Schmitz. A lot of the opinions that were published in concoctions like the above mentioned were already obsolete by the time of their publication, and you are right to suspect that his "works" were mainly read (by some patriotic, music-academic circles too) out of reasons that have their origin in an overall jingoism, poisoning the most parts of Europe during this era. In fact the basic impulse to publish this kind of books in Germany (this is only one example among many others) was a chauvinistic one, and not a scientific one.
The true origin of this quote, however, lies much earlier, in 1866 - the year of Arthur Sullivan`s "Irish" - when this obstinate legend was at first expressed, and was at that time also well believed by the British themselves - with good reason.
Schmitz`s basis for his musical prejudices in comprehensively surveying British culture is another notorious German, Carl Engel, a "music scholar" residing in England at that time. To give you an impression of the language he preferred to use here is a quote out of his book "An Introduction to the Study of National Music", London 1866: "Although the rural population of England appear to sing less than those of most other European countries, it may nevertheless be supposed that they also, especially in districts somewhat remote from any large towns, must still preserve songs and dance tunes of their own inherited from their forefathers".
Translation of Scmitz's actual comments.
I have long tried to understand what kind of lack it is that manifests itself in so many English representations which have such a deadening effect. I have asked myself what is missing from theis nation. Kindness, love of people, humour or aesthetic sense? No, one can find all these attributes in england , some of them more noticeably than among ourselves. Finally I have found something which distinguishes English people from all other cultures to quite an aastonishing degree, a lack which everybody acknowledges therefore nothing new but has not been emphasised enough. The English are the only cultured nation without its own music (except street music). This does not mean that they have less sensitive ears but that their life overall is much poorer for it. To be immeersed in music, even ever so little, means being able to loose yourself. To tolerate even dis-harmonies, even to spend time with such sounds since they can be resolved in beautiful harmony, music provides wings and makes everything beautiful and fantastical seem natural

[Ceejache]

I thought that was something else that made you blind?!

1800-1850 then. Obviously Tallis and Byrd are 250 yrs out of the equation then, and Handel somewhat... True though that at that time there were no English composers considered as great.....although I like the Savoy Operas there are in no way comparable to the rest of 19th century musical idioms, most of which were done best by the Austro-Germans. Bax and Bliss either are never really discussed at any great length when it comes to the British/English output of the late 19th century. I can see where they are coming from to that extent then - however, their was a great surge in 20th century british composers, but to be honest most of that leaves me cold - Tippet, Maxwell-Davies, Birtwistle (from Accy I know) not for me!!!

Sorry, going off topic a bit.

[Ceejache]

Cheers for the extra info Bob. Interesting reading. Brings back memories of long nights spent writing essays, trying to decipher Hoffman and Wackenroders 'musings' on music!

[Acrylic-bob]

I won't ask who Wackenroder is or was. But what a wonderful name. I know what you mean about the long nights. But arent Bax and Bliss usually lumped together with Vaughan Williams and British Pastoralism - so called Cow-Pat music?

[Ceejache]

Sorry, yes stylistically they are indeed. Thing is mentally I had them down, incorrectly, as composing 50 years previous to Vaughan Williams. Not that I can remember much of Bax or Bliss's work, but from the time I listened to more 'serious' music (part though study, part though personal enjoyment) I always thought VW's work had more about it esp. Sinfonia Antartica (no.6) - I used to feel frostbiten listening to that!