Minimum wage rise - good or bad? - Page 3

Less · 20-01-2014, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Hartley

As if serious, I'll try pressing on. The 'something else' approach involves all who contribute to a common good receiving the same financial reward. I worked in the eighties in Wales for an organisation with some four hundred employees. It was proposed that we should all receive the same for our efforts. Arithmetic was done, and presented. The proposal was ultimately rejected by a majority who would lose the most.

Allow me a copy and paste I'm sure it will save walkinman from repeating himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkinman221

Is it just me or is that bollox

Graham Hartley · 20-01-2014, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

would you enlighten me as to why my suggestion is not sensible?
If someone posts a nonsensical post to sensible thread....how can it not be sensible to ask that person to go away?
Enlightenment is required..please.

And in the interest of reasoned debate you could also enlighten us as to what your 'something else' consists of too.

What you choose to pay your cleaner is your business......and I don't care what gender your cleaner is. What has it got to do with the minimum wage what the gender of your cleaner is?

You are usually so precise about not thread wandering...not like the lesser mortals on here who do it for fun.

Sorry to confuse, Margaret. I meant to declare that the other chap's remark wasn't a sensible contribution to the matter.

I've described elsewhere what my favoured 'something else' would be.

There is a lingering attitude that cleaning is the work of women, and it was this view that I wanted to examine. I quite agree that it must not matter that a cleaner is a man or a woman.

I am not a supporter of the minimum wage, by reason of that name and also the rate. I couldn't survive if paid that amount, given the conveniences and choices I have grown firm in supporting. In practice, though, I do support it whenever I shop locally because the shop workers are paid at that level.

Thread-wander is quite common here and elsewhere, I've noticed.

Gordon Booth · 20-01-2014, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Hartley

There is a lingering attitude that cleaning is the work of women, and it was this view that I wanted to examine. I quite agree that it must not matter that a cleaner is a man or a woman.

Do your own then!

Boeing Guy · 20-01-2014, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Hartley

As if serious, I'll try pressing on. The 'something else' approach involves all who contribute to a common good receiving the same financial reward. I worked in the eighties in Wales for an organisation with some four hundred employees. It was proposed that we should all receive the same for our efforts. Arithmetic was done, and presented. The proposal was ultimately rejected by a majority who would lose the most.

So if we were to adopt this, Footballers would be paid the same as Nurses.
Heart Surgeons would be paid the same as a Road Sweeper.
Airline Pilots would be paid the same as Bus Drivers.

I do believe the former USSR tried that, it failed.
You see the problem with ypur arguement Graham is quite simple, I studied for several years, spent tens of thousands of pounds to become a pilot. Twice a year I have the oportunity of losing my license by testing and a stringent medical. If i make a mistake 200 peopke will die.
If we were all paid the same, why would anyone strive to achive?

Graham Hartley · 20-01-2014, 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

So if we were to adopt this, Footballers would be paid the same as Nurses.
Heart Surgeons would be paid the same as a Road Sweeper.
Airline Pilots would be paid the same as Bus Drivers.

I do believe the former USSR tried that, it failed.
You see the problem with ypur arguement Graham is quite simple, I studied for several years, spent tens of thousands of pounds to become a pilot. Twice a year I have the oportunity of losing my license by testing and a stringent medical. If i make a mistake 200 peopke will die.
If we were all paid the same, why would anyone strive to achive?

Well, I thought the argument was worth essay. Are there not some achievements beyond, or in some other way separated from money? If none but me can think of any, perhaps I'm missing a great deal of what passes for ordinary, everyday enjoyment of life. In a further venture away from the topic, I have a cousin who is a retired airline pilot. He would agree with you, I feel sure.

Margaret Pilkington · 20-01-2014, 20:15

I know men who are cleaners.
towards the end of his working life my father was a school caretaker - he cleaned the school.....he also did basic maintenance, but the major part of the job was cleaning the school.
Many jobs are less gender specific than at any time in the past.

I agree with Boeing guy.
During my career I was responsible for the health, safety and care of many thousands of women. I studied hard to get my qualifications. I was also responsible for the education and training of students under my care.
I was subject to yearly appraisal and every three years I could be asked to prove my continued education.
My salary was not great(when the responsibilities were considered)....but it was the job I chose to do. I knew what it entailed when I went into it.
Work is more than just a paypacket...it is what makes us get up each day and stir ourselves. It is an important part of daily life and that which keeps us sane...and builds confidence and self esteem. A feeling that your life is worthwhile...the you are worth something to the community in which you live.

Graham Hartley · 20-01-2014, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

Do your own then!

I do as much as I can find the time to do. I think it right to help her, and she appears happy enough - and I am happier to pay her what I do than I would be if I paid her minimum wage.

Margaret Pilkington · 20-01-2014, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

So if we were to adopt this, Footballers would be paid the same as Nurses.

Can't we make it that Nurses are paid the same as footballers? I don't think you would get many footballers prepared to play for a nurses salary.

I think that many of the values of society are badly skewed.....the wrong people are paid the most money...but then it is what those who wish to watch sportsmen are willing to pay...but ask those people to pay more for the upkeep of their local hospital services and watch them head for the door.

Margaret Pilkington · 20-01-2014, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Hartley

I do as much as I can find the time to do. I think it right to help her, and she appears happy enough - and I am happier to pay her what I do than I would be if I paid her minimum wage.

But then, that is your choice.
If you are both happy with the situation then that is fine.....but some businesses do not have the luxury of the choice you make.
Businesses are in business to make a profit(I know that may sound a strange concept)...and many of the small businesses are only just making ends meet.
Our town centre is a testament to this.

dotti34 · 20-01-2014, 20:30

I understand your logic and agree with most of it, Boeing Guy. A person SHOULD get compensated for the efforts they have made and for their achievements. My children spent years of study during which they went without a lot of the things their peers had (for obvious financial reasons - no income as such during that time) so I agree that they should now be receiving decent salaries, which they are, and that their efforts are being justly rewarded.

However, I don't think you should have compared footballers with nurses - nurses are far more important that footballers - maybe if footballers DID get the same as nurses then the latter would be better compensated, though I doubt it.

Don't be surprised to get a comment from Margaret P re this. I'll be disappointed if you don't!!!!

dotti34 · 20-01-2014, 20:33

Margaret - you beat me to it - you were posting your reply even while I was putting in my bob's worth. Good on you!

Boeing Guy · 20-01-2014, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Can't we make it that Nurses are paid the same as footballers? I don't think you would get many footballers prepared to play for a nurses salary.

I think that many of the values of society are badly skewed.....the wrong people are paid the most money...but then it is what those who wish to watch sportsmen are willing to pay...but ask those people to pay more for the upkeep of their local hospital services and watch them head for the door.

Just as Firefighters and others who do so much more for their comunity and mankind.
It is wrong, but we are governed by market forces and in the case of the NHS....PFI!

My Grandmother was a Nurse, the NHS front line have saved my life, I had a car crash when I was 18, it is a shame we don't live in an ideal world.

Dotti, I have no problem with sports stars/ film stars etc earning huge sums of money, but your right, there are inequalities in this world. Nurses are woefully underpaid and I have nothing but the upmost respect for them. I appologise if my comments offended anyone.

dotti34 · 20-01-2014, 20:42

Quote - Graham Hartley, I do as much as I can find the time to do. I think it right to help her, and she appears happy enough - and I am happier to pay her what I do than I would be if I paid her minimum wage.

Sorry, G.H. but I think if you stick around to help her and during this time you share some of the same type of comments we have grown accustomed to getting from you - and the poor woman has to listen to it all, then I think she deserves a raise.....

dotti34 · 20-01-2014, 20:51

You can say that again, Boeing Guy. Do you know that a huge number of those brave courageous firefighters who have been fighting the horrific fires in this country lately (and still are) are volunteers - who receive no financial gain whatsoever....
...and thank goodness for them.

Graham Hartley · 20-01-2014, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by dotti34

Quote - Graham Hartley, I do as much as I can find the time to do. I think it right to help her, and she appears happy enough - and I am happier to pay her what I do than I would be if I paid her minimum wage.

Sorry, G.H. but I think if you stick around to help her and during this time you share some of the same type of comments we have grown accustomed to getting from you, then I think she deserves a raise.....

Yes, there are many here and elsewhere who can't stand my company and are most forthright in saying so. Such is not the case here. I'm at work when she attends, and I pay her via a third party. Indeed, she was chosen by a third party, such is the risk that misogyny will spoil the enterprise. The help I offer is financial - sorry to confuse.