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Old 06-12-2013, 17:22   #31
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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Originally Posted by Guinness View Post
And the finale of the piece you forgot to mark as a quote states...

"Its important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West cant bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that hes just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal."
Read this somewhere too Guinness.

"Is any application of ethics more of an assessment of the adjudicator than of the object of adjudication?"
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Old 06-12-2013, 21:25   #32
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Re: Nelson Mandela

You can sit from the comfort of a warm home with a guarantee of free speech, grabbing soundbites from google, from a position when the last time one of your countrymen was violently oppressed was 1066. And it's oh so easy to pretend that you would not use violence or terrorism to simply be treated as an equal or to protect your family.

You can expect that people will call you by the name given to you by your parents and not changed when you start school. You can expect not to be awoken by police breaking your door in because of the colour of your skin or the area where you live.

Mandela was not an angel, he was a bloke...a bloke who screwed up in his youth and made good when he grew up (haven't we all to a lesser degree). For a very brief period he got South Africa, one of the most volatile countries on the planet, back on track. For one moment simply by wearing a rugby shirt he knocked the stuffing out of apartheid.

His legacy of forgiveness, level headedness and oratory skills make him a great man.

You cannot blame him for the current state of South Africa, one single man can only have an idea..it's up to everyone else to decide whether that idea is valid..and where politicians are concerned..nuff said!
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Old 06-12-2013, 21:45   #33
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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His legacy of forgiveness, level headedness and oratory skills make him a great man.

You cannot blame him for the current state of South Africa, one single man can only have an idea..it's up to everyone else to decide whether that idea is valid..and where politicians are concerned..nuff said!
We do it all the time Guiness, weighing up the various aspects of a character in our judgment of said character. Ask the families of the people who were murdered by his thugs if they will mourn his passing.

Last edited by DtheP47; 06-12-2013 at 21:51.
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Old 06-12-2013, 22:35   #34
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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We (Major cut here) will mourn his passing.
See what I did there?....

Anyone can take a couple of lines from a post and ignore the three paragraph argument that went before
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Old 06-12-2013, 23:26   #35
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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See what I did there?....

Anyone can take a couple of lines from a post and ignore the three paragraph argument that went before
I have no arguments with the three para' arguments Guinness, well maybe with two of em' but not fancying a thread wander at this time of night I cut them for brevity. But you don't need any explanations from me do you?
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:05   #36
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Re: Nelson Mandela

If the Nazis had invaded Britain in 1940, doubtless a British Resistance movement would have been sprung up. They would've planted bombs, killing Germans and probably a few Brits as well. What would they have been?...terrorists?...or freedom fighters?

What was Mandela supposed to do? Go cap-in-hand to the government and say "please, Mr De Clerk, stop this nasty apartheid system and let us be equal to you?" Minority government don't just stand aside and say, "after you, old boy". It takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears to wrest power from them. Innocents shouldn't have been killed in the process, but, then again, we've killed plenty of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe we're terrorists, too.

And, yes, the post-apartheid government has not lived up to its promise - government don't usually - but I'll bet the majority in SA wouldn't want to go back to the old regime.

Mandela was a great man - flawed as are many great men - but a great man nonetheless.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:55   #37
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Opinion changes & disappears with time Wynonie. No one can change their past. They can change their future. choose to do good with the time that remains. No doubt Nelson Mandela followed that path of righteousness in his later years as have Gerry Adams and his mate McGuinness. I’ll not be elbowing anybody out of the way to be a pall-bearer at their funerals though.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:41   #38
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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R.I.P. Nelson if anyone deserves that their future after death would be in some heavenly paradise I suspect it could be you .
It's a shame when people read but don't understand.

Though it does happen Quite a great deal here on AccyWeb, take for example my above sentence.

I put it on not to canonize nor to condemn a man that has been prominent during my life time.

Within 30 minutes I was told basically, to slow down with my praise and given a list of the bad things in the guys life and the same poster keeps reproducing that post in various forms if anyone even slightly offers the man praise.

Well, allow me to repeat myself then explain slowly why I said what I said.

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R.I.P. Nelson if anyone deserves that their future after death would be in some heavenly paradise I suspect it could be you .
If you notice I didn't go on about the good things he has done, nor did I list the bad things he did in his early life.

Why? not because I was ignorant of his early life, nor did I think he was perfect once he got into power.

It was said because he had been a guy that did do bad things but later on tried, to do good things.

I'm an Atheist, but from what I understand some guy said something about a sinner repenting and being welcomed back.

I didn't say it was him, I said it could be him.

He was a man, he wasn't perfect, I didn't try to make him out as bad nor good, just a message of goodbye, I didn't say he would get in, I just hinted that when placed on the scales his good might outweigh his bad and allow him some peace.


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Old 07-12-2013, 07:56   #39
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Re: Nelson Mandela

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness View Post

His legacy of forgiveness, level headedness and oratory skills make him a great man.

You cannot blame him for the current state of South Africa, one single man can only have an idea..it's up to everyone else to decide whether that idea is valid..and where politicians are concerned..nuff said!
This says it all for me.
Would that we had some man with such skills to lead us......all we have are self serving braying donkeys.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:26   #40
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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Originally Posted by Less View Post
It's a shame when people read but don't understand.

Though it does happen Quite a great deal here on AccyWeb, take for example my above sentence.

I put it on not to canonize nor to condemn a man that has been prominent during my life time.

Within 30 minutes I was told basically, to slow down with my praise and given a list of the bad things in the guys life and the same poster keeps reproducing that post in various forms if anyone even slightly offers the man praise.

Well, allow me to repeat myself then explain slowly why I said what I said.



If you notice I didn't go on about the good things he has done, nor did I list the bad things he did in his early life.

Why? not because I was ignorant of his early life, nor did I think he was perfect once he got into power.

It was said because he had been a guy that did do bad things but later on tried, to do good things.

I'm an Atheist, but from what I understand some guy said something about a sinner repenting and being welcomed back.

I didn't say it was him, I said it could be him.

He was a man, he wasn't perfect, I didn't try to make him out as bad nor good, just a message of goodbye, I didn't say he would get in, I just hinted that when placed on the scales his good might outweigh his bad and allow him some peace.


Thanks Less for your enunciation.
In the words of the great man himself, " I will bow to your greater knowledge in this area"
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:35   #41
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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Originally Posted by DtheP47 View Post
Thanks Less for your enunciation.
In the words of the great man himself, " I will bow to your greater knowledge in this area"
I didn't say that my knowledge was greater, just that I'm not ignorant of the facts and therefore don't need edificating about them.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:43   #42
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris View Post
If the Nazis had invaded Britain in 1940, doubtless a British Resistance movement would have been sprung up. They would've planted bombs, killing Germans and probably a few Brits as well. What would they have been?...terrorists?...or freedom fighters?

What was Mandela supposed to do? Go cap-in-hand to the government and say "please, Mr De Clerk, stop this nasty apartheid system and let us be equal to you?" Minority government don't just stand aside and say, "after you, old boy". It takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears to wrest power from them. Innocents shouldn't have been killed in the process, but, then again, we've killed plenty of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe we're terrorists, too.

And, yes, the post-apartheid government has not lived up to its promise - government don't usually - but I'll bet the majority in SA wouldn't want to go back to the old regime.

Mandela was a great man - flawed as are many great men - but a great man nonetheless.
I think you will find that the original inhabitants of SA were not the Xhosa, who are the main strength of the ANC. The original inhabitants, the Khoikhoi and San peoples were persecuted and slaughtered by the invading tribes from the North, the Bantu, but particularly the Xhosa.
Mandela promised many things in his Rainbow Nation, as do his successors, but achievements lack far behind the promises.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:56   #43
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Re: Nelson Mandela

I pay tribute to Nelson Mandela .

After his release from prison he showed himself to be a man of integrity .

He opposed revenge in favour of peace , forgiveness and reconciliation .

He wore no mask . What you saw was the real Madiba .

He was and still is an inspiration for many .

May the cynics be confounded , and may South Africa develop into a peaceful and forgiving country where justice flourishes .

Thanks Nelson Mandela , you are a giant amongst dwarfs .
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:38   #44
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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but achievements lack far behind the promises.
Sounds a lot like Cameron ... Clegg ... our own Stephen Harper ... Obama ... Hollande ... I think it's time for "etc." Come to think of it, "A fit land for heroes" didn't turn out all that well either. Maybe some thought should be given to the alternatives to what Mandela did for South Africa ... "bloody mess" comes to mind. Kinda like the messes the European colonial powers left all over the continent. And before complaining too much about the state of South Africa, sorry enough though it is, look around the continent and see what has been achieved in the Congo, Mali, CAR, Libya (boat trip anyone) ... time for "etc" again. The "Arab Spring" has sprung right into winter, skipping summer and fall. And the collapse of the Soviet Union ... he EVIL EMPIRE ... has given us Putin, mmmm ... oh, and Chelski. In a world led by incompetents, moral midgets, clowns, lunatics, and outright crooks, Mandela was a stand out.
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Old 07-12-2013, 15:04   #45
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Re: Nelson Mandela

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Originally Posted by Barrie Yates View Post
I think you will find that the original inhabitants of SA were not the Xhosa, who are the main strength of the ANC. The original inhabitants, the Khoikhoi and San peoples were persecuted and slaughtered by the invading tribes from the North, the Bantu, but particularly the Xhosa.
Mandela promised many things in his Rainbow Nation, as do his successors, but achievements lack far behind the promises.
The original inhabitants of the area known as the USA were Indians who were persecuted and slaughtered by the invading white men. The situation has been repeated many times all over the world, but you can't turn back the clock.

And, yes, the SA government has far from fulfilled its promises. It's still a step in the right direction away from the hateful apartheid regime and whatever the deficiencies of the present administration, I doubt that the majority would want to return to the previous system.
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