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[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

So you seriously believe that thousands of Tory party members have experienced an overnight conversion and ditched their cherished beliefs about market forces, immigration and many other subjects to join touchy-feely Dave's modern, progressive Conservative movement? You poor, deluded boy!

Not an overnight conversion no. They havn't had a chance to vote on a leader since 2001. In 2001 they got to vote on Ian Duncan Smith (Right wing) or Ken Clarke (more center), however a lot of the Conservative activists do not want full integration with Europe the way that Ken Clarke did, so a right-wing candidate preveiled over him.
The point im trying to make is that they havn't had a chance to vote on a moderate candidate yet, so it's not an overnight conversion, its from back past 2001, not to mention a lot of the membership will have changed, people leave, people join, people die, people are born.

I'm not deluded at all, you're following an anti-conservative stance, not a rational stance where you look at all the facts and come to a conclusion. Where as I am perfectly happy to point out Conservative failings and express how the past 3 leaders have been usless because they were too right wing when we need stability from Conservative ideologies, not far-out right ideas.

[Wynonie Harris]

I'm merely pointing out that, in my opinion, there are striking parallels between the changes the Tories are going through and the transformation of the Labour party a few years ago. Ian Duncan-Smith was the Tories' Michael Foot figure; he embodied many of their most cherished beliefs - a right-wing approach, middle class respectability etc. However, they realised that they'd never get into power with him, so now they have a leader who has a fighting chance. However, just as many rank-and-file Labour members still retain the socialist values of old Labour, so many ordinary Tories are still right wingers at heart.

And, yes, you are deluded, Cyfr. Hopefully as you grow older, you will become a little less naive and see things as they really are.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

I'm merely pointing out that, in my opinion, there are striking parallels between the changes the Tories are going through and the transformation of the Labour party a few years ago. Ian Duncan-Smith was the Tories' Michael Foot figure; he embodied many of their most cherished beliefs - a right-wing approach, middle class respectability etc. However, they realised that they'd never get into power with him, so now they have a leader who has a fighting chance. However, just as many rank-and-file Labour members still retain the socialist values of old Labour, so many ordinary Tories are still right wingers at heart.

And, yes, you are deluded, Cyfr. Hopefully as you grow older, you will become a little less naive and see things as they really are.

Back any of this up as fact, please. If you can give me a recent poll or something that says that the majroity of the Conservative membership are far right rather than moderate right, then i'll happily retract my statement about them. But so far, i've provided reasons as to why you might have this perception of the membership, and everything holds up, the fact that they havn't had a chance to vote for a moderate Tory in 5 years, and even then he was pro europe where as many Conservative members don't want that, so your perception could go back decades.

I am not deluded, i'm perfectly able to make rational decisions. Please, if theres one thing I dislike, it's patronising me because im younger than you. I don't put my age and picture on here so it can be used as an excuse to try and get the upper hand in a debate.

[garinda]

Never having done it myself (), I feel able to comment that this thread has wandered quite a bit from the accusation by a Tory Accy Web member in the press, that this website is full of vile tirades against Peter Britcliffe.

At least it's brought some interesting debate.

Who was it that you should never talk about religion or politics?

Very often they result in our most interesting threads.__________________

[Wynonie Harris]

Do you actually live in the real world. Cyfr? Do you ever go into any Con Clubs? I do, not for political reasons, but because you can drink cheap beer in a chav-free zone. The Tories I speak to are by and large a pretty right-wing bunch. They've voted for Cameron, not because they have much belief in him but because they reckon he's the best chance they've got of getting into power and they'd rather have a middle-of-the-road Tory government than none at all.

I'll start treating you like a rational adult when you eventually come down from that ivory tower you're living in.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Do you actually live in the real world. Cyfr? Do you ever go into any Con Clubs? I do, not for political reasons, but because you can drink cheap beer in a chav-free zone. The Tories I speak to are by and large a pretty right-wing bunch. They've voted for Cameron, not because they have much belief in him but because they reckon he's the best chance they've got of getting into power and they'd rather have a middle-of-the-road Tory government than none at all.

I'll start treating you like a rational adult when you eventually come down from that ivory tower you're living in.

Yes I do live in the real world. Isn't it pretty obvious that the more right-wing enthusiastic activists would be more inclined to go to the Conservative Clubs, and hence what you saw was not representative of the whole membership.

You should start treating me like a rational adult now, the fact that i'm younger than you does not make you any better, and dosn't give you the right to patronise me.

[andrewb]

Double post

[DeShark]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Do you actually live in the real world. Cyfr? Do you ever go into any Con Clubs? I do, not for political reasons, but because you can drink cheap beer in a chav-free zone. The Tories I speak to are by and large a pretty right-wing bunch. They've voted for Cameron, not because they have much belief in him but because they reckon he's the best chance they've got of getting into power and they'd rather have a middle-of-the-road Tory government than none at all.

I'll start treating you like a rational adult when you eventually come down from that ivory tower you're living in.

And to think that I was quite enjoying this little discussion/debate/whatever. Then all of a sudden ad hominem attacks begin to surface symbolising a weakness in attack strategy. Rather than turn this into some flame on "The Little Guy", why don't you formulate an intelligent and reasoned argument. I don't agree entirely with Cyfr's points, but there's no need to blatently insult him. This may be news to you, but if you go to a conservative club, you're going to find conservatives. And only the most hard core conservatives will go out of their way to go to said clubs. They're obviously going to be hardcore right-wingers. Or at least a fair few. In the same way that when I go to labour clubs I find that quite a few of the people there willing to indoctrinate me into the ways of Unions and Workers' rights. This doesn't mean that every person who votes labour believes that Unions should be free to roam the earth as Gods. As for this Tory MP that you might have met sometime in the... was is 80's? 90's? Anyway... you met him and you think... well you're pretty sure now you think about it... that he probably said something about conserving for oneself... or whatever. Nice bit of anecdotal evidence that proves...???

P.S. Next time you use complex phrases like "Ivory Tower" in your efforts to patronise people, at least get them in the right context.

[claytonender]

CYFR - Whilst I don't agree with most of your opinions, it is very heartneing that someone of your age is taking an interest in politics.I apologise if any of my posts, in reply you have appeared to be patronising, because I didn't mean them to be.
I do think, however, that your views will change as you gain more experience of the world. Theories about Politics are fine, but wait till you have suffered because of the firm you work for 'downsizing' or moving their work 'offshore'. Then your ideas may change.

[cashman]

[QUOTE=DeShark]And to think that I was quite enjoying this little discussion/debate/whatever. Then all of a sudden ad hominem attacks begin to surface symbolising a weakness in attack strategy. Rather than turn this into some flame on "The Little Guy", why don't you formulate an intelligent and reasoned argument. I don't agree entirely with Cyfr's points, but there's no need to blatently insult him. This may be news to you, but if you go to a conservative club, you're going to find conservatives. And only the most hard core conservatives will go out of their way to go to said clubs. They're obviously going to be hardcore right-wingers. Or at least a fair few. In the same way that when I go to labour clubs I find that quite a few of the people there willing to indoctrinate me into the ways of Unions and Workers' rights. This doesn't mean that every person who votes labour believes that Unions should be free to roam the earth as Gods. As for this Tory MP that you might have met sometime in the... was is 80's? 90's? Anyway... you met him and you think... well you're pretty sure now you think about it... that he probably said something about conserving for oneself... or whatever. Nice bit of anecdotal evidence that proves...???
you might have been enjoying this debate but you wern't taking much notice?it was me that did meet(not might) and it was well before the 80s/90s as you would know if you knew your politics.

[Wynonie Harris]

Cyfr, why would "more right-wing, enthusiastic activists be more inclined to go to the conservative clubs"? Surely, these mythical, moderate Tories you speak of are just as enthusiastic as the right-wing ones? And why don't they go to Tory clubs? Are they teatotal or just plain anti-social? I now have a vision of a silent army of thousands of liberal-minded Tories sitting in their homes waiting for the call from the boy David.

DeShark, a very impressive first post. What a pity you couldn't get your basic facts right. Never mind, perhaps you'll pay more attention next time, eh?

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Cyfr, why would "more right-wing, enthusiastic activists be more inclined to go to the conservative clubs"? Surely, these mythical, moderate Tories you speak of are just as enthusiastic as the right-wing ones? And why don't they go to Tory clubs? Are they teatotal or just plain anti-social? I now have a vision of a silent army of thousands of liberal-minded Tories sitting in their homes waiting for the call from the boy David.

DeShark, a very impressive first post. What a pity you couldn't get your basic facts right. Never mind, perhaps you'll pay more attention next time, eh?

Is it not obvious? The more extreme your views, the more enuthusicastic you get about a subject. Hence the reason why theres so much voter turnout when the parties policies are far apart.
Now, could you show me any real evidence to backup your claim other than a few people you met down the local Tory Club?
At least I tried to interpret the way the membership have voted over the last 6 years or so, which is a heck of a lot more representative than a few people in a local club.

[Wynonie Harris]

Really? So, those with traditional Tory views are more enthusiastic in their beliefs than those with moderate views? I would have thought that this is quite an insult to all moderate Tory party members, including yourself. As for your "interpretation" of Tory leadership voting patterns, surely these moderate Tories would have voted for Ken Clarke rather than Ian Duncan-Smith, as the former's views on Europe are not that different from David Cameron's, although you may be able to correct me on that.

I'm also still puzzled by the apparent dominance in Tory clubs of, to quote DeShark's phrase "hardcore right-wingers" if what you say is true. Surely, now the one-nation faction are in the ascendancy, there should be more evidence of them by now...or do they not get out much?

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by DeShark

In the same way that when I go to labour clubs I find that quite a few of the people there willing to indoctrinate me into the ways of Unions and Workers' rights. This doesn't mean that every person who votes labour believes that Unions should be free to roam the earth as Gods.

Exactly my point. The Labour party leadership has become more moderate and this has attracted more support from ordinary voters, but the party activists are still resolutely left-wing. Quote from Claytonender to Cyfr earlier in this thread, "You say that the Labour Party is no longer left wing - are you in touch with main body of party members?" I also go into Labour Clubs (cheap beer, chav-free zone etc!) and Claytonender is right on the money in this.

In my view, the Tories are now a mirror image of the Labour party in this way, but apparently not according to Cyfr.

[DeShark]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Exactly my point. The Labour party leadership has become more moderate and this has attracted more support from ordinary voters, but the party activists are still resolutely left-wing. Quote from Claytonender to Cyfr earlier in this thread, "You say that the Labour Party is no longer left wing - are you in touch with main body of party members?" I also go into Labour Clubs (cheap beer, chav-free zone etc!) and Claytonender is right on the money in this.

In my view, the Tories are now a mirror image of the Labour party in this way, but apparently not according to Cyfr.

I agree. The labour party's leader is further right than his party and the Conservative party leader is more moderate. But who is it that rules the country in essence? I think Blair proved quite aptly in his recent reforms on Education that he doesn't need the support of his own party to pass right-wing bills and that he can depend on the opposition party to fulfil his requests. Therefore, in effect, it doesn't matter what political persuassion the main body of party members hold, if their leader is right, then right wing policies will be passed, with or without their support. Surely it would be better to have a leader who shares the same views as his party. Then, when I go to vote for a party, I can be sure that both the party members and the party leader are willing to carry out the views that I stand for and voted in favour of. When voting for labour, I get the same right-wing policies as I would under any other right wing govt.

But of course David Cameron isn't left wing! He's "conservative to the core". But then again, his party have illustrated that they want change simply by voting for him. They had the option of a stuck in his ways Tory or the more revolutionary figure of David Cameron. They voted for change. Yes David Cameron will implement core Tory ideas, ideas that I must say I don't like; Privatisation, poor Union backing, reducing support for those who need it. He hasn't even promised to reduce taxes, a statement which worries me seriously. It's like "I'd like to adopt certain features of conservativism... but screw the fiscal parts, our nation's in too big of a mess for that now".

I still haven't decided upon my political persuassion as of yet and it's not until recently that I started to take an interest in these things. So yes, I may be wrong, but it'd make for a more interesting argument if you could back up your statements instead of dismissing mine as puerile.

P.S. Sorry for not paying enough attention to the debate and misquoting you. Kinda ruined my entire first post. Ah well... I stand by what I said about patronisation being a weak form of debating style.