Referendum is a load of crap.!!

[Less]

Originally Posted by RainbowSix

Don't be so bloody stupid!
Of course I don't support rapists and murderers, you suggestion so is damn insulting!

The EHCR has nowt to do with keeping scum like that in this country, our government and security forces are well able to do whats required to get rid of them.

I have just said that I consider my kids rights that have been given to them by Europe.
That's not ALL that is for consideration, just part of it.

What happens if we leave, will all this that your saying suddenly come true?
Will it heck as like, will the magna carta etc be given more subsistence than it already has? Or will it continue to just be a legacy thing that we no longer apply as much.

As I have said - I do not know all the details that should enable me to make a choice, because I cannot see them with verification of accuracy, of being current and knowing what will happen once we do leave.

I have a feeling that if we do, not a lot will happen before I'm dead, pollytiks do not work that fast.

Don't bother replying if all you can do is come out with stupid comments that cannot be quantified with accurate visible facts I can read to aid me making a decision.

You want to vote out then vote out, some of us consider what the future could be like if the UK government was allowed to remove some of what european laws have given us.
There is a good side to europe you know.

From what you say and the way you say it I take it that a logical discussion is, unfortunately out of the question?

[cashman]

Well sunshine its you making stupid comments, if yeh think we are able to do whats required to get rid em, obviously yeh dont follow the news, cos a village idiot would know that.

[Wynonie Harris]

What's the ECHR got to do with the referendum?

Even if the UK votes to leave on June 23rd, we'll still be bound by the ECHR just like Norway is.

Anders Breivik?s human rights violated in prison, Norway court rules | World news | The Guardian

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

What's the ECHR got to do with the referendum?

Even if the UK votes to leave on June 23rd, we'll still be bound by the ECHR just like Norway is.

Anders Breivik?s human rights violated in prison, Norway court rules | World news | The Guardian

I wonder who looks bloody stupid now?

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by RainbowSix

Don't be so bloody stupid!
Of course I don't support rapists and murderers, you suggestion so is damn insulting!

The EHCR has nowt to do with keeping scum like that in this country, our government and security forces are well able to do whats required to get rid of them.

I have just said that I consider my kids rights that have been given to them by Europe.
That's not ALL that is for consideration, just part of it.

What happens if we leave, will all this that your saying suddenly come true?
Will it heck as like, will the magna carta etc be given more subsistence than it already has? Or will it continue to just be a legacy thing that we no longer apply as much.

As I have said - I do not know all the details that should enable me to make a choice, because I cannot see them with verification of accuracy, of being current and knowing what will happen once we do leave.

I have a feeling that if we do, not a lot will happen before I'm dead, pollytiks do not work that fast.

Don't bother replying if all you can do is come out with stupid comments that cannot be quantified with accurate visible facts I can read to aid me making a decision.

You want to vote out then vote out, some of us consider what the future could be like if the UK government was allowed to remove some of what european laws have given us.
There is a good side to europe you know.

Your suggestion that the ECHR has nothing to do with keeping scum in this country(your words - not mine) is frankly ludicrous.
There have been many incidences where murderers and rapists have been allowed to remain,because sections of the ECHR have been cited as being contravened if we ejected them.
But you are happy for your children to live in a country who has no control over its borders.

As for facts as to what will happen if we leave....let me assure you that NO ONE KNOWS.
definitive facts are not available because it has not been done before....there is only conjecture assumptions and plain guesses.

We know for a fact that Turkey is going to be given EU status....that means that Turks can come here and seek what for them is a better life.
It also means that they will gain access to jobs, health care, benefits(regardless of what David Cameron has said about the renegotiations - they are not worth the paper they are printed on.
Member states will be able to veto them, and what is more they have said they will do so) your children will be in competition with these migrants for jobs, health care, houses, benefits....but you want that.

All the refugees flowing into Europe right now will be given EU passports which will allow them to come here too....but you think this is alright for your children and their future.
These refugees have gained access to Europe on fake documents, so we have absolutely no knowledge of their backgrounds or whether they mean us harm.
They certainly will not subscribe to a western way of life....but this the future you would choose for your children.

I have thought my opinions through after looking at as much information as is available from many and varied sources.
I am also old enough to remember what our country was like before we joined the common market...which is what it was sold to the UK electorate as.

If you went out and paid for a super duper car, but once you had handed your money over you found you had bought a camel wouldn't you feel aggrieved?

Even more so when governments of all colours have taken little notice of what the electorate wanted....getting us more enmeshed in an organisation that is corrupt and has not had a budget ratified by auditors for 21 years.

So, you want all this AND erosion of democracy for your children....they will be ruled by people who they have not sanctioned by a vote....laws will be made for them by people they cannot remove.
Forgive me if this is all too much information for you...But my vote(probably a waste of time and ink) will be for us to get OUT.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Yes there is something good about Europe....it is that we are separated by the English Channel.

[Margaret Pilkington]

My vain hope is that people think about what politicians are telling us and reason things out for themselves.
If someone is suggesting we remain, just check out to see if they have ulterior motives for this stance.....and many politicians do....they hope to jump on a very lucrative EU gravy train when their UK political career is over.
Check out to see if they are involved in businesses which rely heavily on EU subsidies.
If this proves to be the case, take their scary stories with a healthy dose of cynicism.....whatever authority they seem to speak wit.....THEY DO NOT KNOW!

[Less]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

THEY DO NOT KNOW!

Let's make that the motto of this thread, no matter whether for or against whatever is in the future, they don't know.

So speculating about the results and perhaps frightening someone to vote one way or the other is WRONG.

What needs to be done is to allow folk to see the results of our membership, let them decide has this been good for me and mine (nation not family).

If not then, vote out, otherwise vote remain.

Whichever is your choice do not pretend you know the future, if I could predict the future I wouldn't bother with the EU I would just invest in the lotto with the following 6 numbers...

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

murderer and rapists

Holy feces Batperson ... you got Mexicans too

[Barrie Yates]

Originally Posted by Eric

Holy feces Batperson ... you got Mexicans too

Oh yes - and just about every other nationality that is allowed to wander freely through the rest of the EU without being required to register in the first safe country that they arrive in and then enter UK illegally.

[Margaret Pilkington]

These refugees, are not refugees.....they are economic migrants travelling under the guise of refugees.
As you say, a refugee would settle in the FIRST SAFE COUNTRY where they made landfall.....but these countries are not as soft as the UK....So that is where they head for.

[RainbowSix]

Margaret, you make my point exactly:

As for facts as to what will happen if we leave....let me assure you that NO ONE KNOWS.
definitive facts are not available because it has not been done before....there is only conjecture assumptions and plain guesses.

Your all harping on that brexit will mean that we do not have immigration problems, that rapists and murderes, child molesters etc. will be a thing of the past if we leave.

You're guessing, your also wrong. (They will still be here and still come).

But thats absolutly not true is is, as you say we do not know, we also will not be able to simply chuck them out.

What about the rights that we have because of Europe? the disability discrimination? the race discrimination issues etc that are protected by European laws?

Think about what the politicians are telling us? I'm not going to search for it but I'm pretty sure that we could find another thread where you or others are calling them all liars, that they are dishonest and not to be believed. So why would we listen to them?

I listened to the clip where an economist did the maths and said that by 2030 we would have paid off our national debt for being out, the current debate on CH4 where being out would be fairer in that everyone no matter where they come from face the same border bureaucracy and checks. All good, but what about the European laws that force us to make our products safer? the European laws that mean that our products must meet EMC standards, so that they do not interfere with other things? CE certifications that are designed to make our childrens toys safe? simple yes - but they are good things born out of European laws..

So as Less puts it so well, using terms like saying that someone agrees with keeping murders and rapists in this country just because they are undecided or want to stay in - is wrong.

(And imo this makes a change for Less to have reasoned comment - lol)


We simply do not have such a closed mind on what Brexit means and are considering lots of other issues than immigration (which is actually a very small part of it).

But you keep your vitriol up, it will only make people like me vote to stay in just because we know it will p1$$ you off

Have a nice day, I cant pass it to you so I'll eat your share of this ice cream...yum yum

[cashman]

Doubt very much if it will make people like you vote the opposite, yeh aint fooling anyone with that line.

[Margaret Pilkington]

So you think I made your point....I did not make your point. You were asking for firm facts....THERE AREN'T ANY. Get over it. don't expect other people to find out information for you. Go out and seek it for yourself.....do a bit of reasoning.....do some working out.

It has already been pointed out to you that ECHR existed(in some form or another) long before we became members of the common market......and whatever happens, it will not disappear.
You consider that I am wrong about the migration that will come if we stay in the EU.....I hope I am wrong....for your children's sake.
I DO know that leaving the EU is not only about migration....and if you have read through this thread you will know that.
That you feel my responses are vitriolic says more about you than it does about me.....and it won't irritate me( though you use different terminology).

As for me calling politicians liars......yes, and I will continue to do so until they prove that they are telling me the truth(i won't hold my breath waiting).
I am not believing them....I am seeking out information for myself...not swallowing whole what they want me to believe. They have ulterior motives and none of them will benefit me...or you.
And who is this 'we' you are talking about? My mind is made up....but only after careful consideration of many issues......so yes, right now my mind is closed.

I am quite resigned to the fact that many of the electorate will put their cross in the box that keeps us in a sclerotic corrupt organisation....an organisation which has very little will to reform......and I will be very very surprised if anything changes.
enjoy your ice cream.....I am pleased to let you have my share....i can't eat it and it is better on your waist line than mine.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by RainbowSix

Margaret, you make my point exactly:


Your all harping on that brexit will mean that we do not have immigration problems, that rapists and murderes, child molesters etc. will be a thing of the past if we leave.

You're guessing, your also wrong. (They will still be here and still come).

But thats absolutly not true is is, as you say we do not know, we also will not be able to simply chuck them out.

Of course the murderers and child molesters will not be a thing of the past...That wasn't what was being said.(and I think you know this)

We would though, be able to control our borders. We would be able to say who comes in and who does not. We would be able to impose restrictions on those who were undesirable or detrimental to the country. Currently if these undesirables have an EU passport they can come here
And of course those who are already here could not be forced to leave.

If you look back through this thread you will see that I have mentioned many issues other than migration.....but it is uncontrolled migration that worries most people.
I have mentioned the undemocratic way in which the EU operates, business rules and regulations which tie up small businesses(the large ones break through these)....I have mentioned agriculture and the unfair nature of quotas.....many more things than migration.