The Tories

[Eric]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Looks like you two haven't a brain between ya

Here we go with that ad hominem garbage again .... one of the most common fallacies for those on here with the "13 years etc" mantra as their only argument The fallacy is: Say, person A, let's call him "c'mon" makes a statement; person B, let's say "jaysay", makes an attack on "c'mon". Therefore, "c'mon's" argument is false. But in most cases, the character, circumstances etc of a person making an argument do not usually have a bearing on the validity of that argument. Whatever arguments he brings to support his position, whatever weight of evidence he brings to bear, are ignored: "He/she must be wrong because of who he/she is".

I can't say I agree with all the pro-socialist arguments. I believe that socialism has to change to recognize changes that have occured in society ... a no-brainer really. To use decades old rhetoric is not all that useful in the twenty-first century. But some things have not changed. Let's use a Hyndburn MP's number: 95% of folks are nibbling on crumbs that 5% let fall while they are munching on the cake. The exercise of political power is in the hands of the 5%. But the source of that power is with the 95%. It is the task of some form of socialism to mobilize this power, and begin the process of redistributing a nation's wealth.

Another thing that is bugging me is the continual use of simplistic analogies to describe how we can get out of economic messes ... believe me, we get this garbage over here too. A household budget is not a national economy in a complex economic world. I have no doubt that governments manipulate figures, and indulge in some dubious accounting practices, in order to present a picture of the economy that conforms to their ideologies.

[groove]

Politics politics yawn yawn bloody yawn

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Eric

Another thing that is bugging me is the continual use of simplistic analogies to describe how we can get out of economic messes ... believe me, we get this garbage over here too. A household budget is not a national economy in a complex economic world. I have no doubt that governments manipulate figures, and indulge in some dubious accounting practices, in order to present a picture of the economy that conforms to their ideologies.

It is quite plan that there isn't a simple solution to sort out the financial ills that currently beset the world...it isn't just the UK and Europe that are having a tough financial time.

If it was simple then the Eu would have sorted the Eurozone crisis by now...but there simply isn't a one size fits all solution....and that was the mistake of a single currency.......it was trying to force a one size fits all on all the countries in the Eurozone, regardless of their ability to maintain budgets and have equal growth...it was never going to happen.
The Southern Med countries don't have the same productivity/manufacturing to be able to compete with the likes of Germany and France

And you are right when you say that governments manipulate figures....and indulge in dubious accounting(amonst a lot of othe dubious practices, no doubt)....and the budgetary management system of a household cannot really be used to manage the finances of the UK, but certain tenets of household management, had they been employed, would have meant us being in much less of a mess...or certainly the mess being addressed long before now....but it wasn't....and it doesn't really matter how we got here in this mess.....what is absolutely certain is we need some decisive action to sort it out.......and I can't see the cavalry through my woolworths telescope.

And Groove, if you find politics boring, why don't you just burger off?
No-one makes you read this stuff.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Eric

Here we go with that ad hominem garbage again .... one of the most common fallacies for those on here with the "13 years etc" mantra as their only argument The fallacy is: Say, person A, let's call him "c'mon" makes a statement; person B, let's say "jaysay", makes an attack on "c'mon". Therefore, "c'mon" argument is false. But in most cases, the character, circumstances etc of a person making an argument do not usually have a bearing on the validity of that argument. Whatever arguments he brings to support his position, whatever weight of evidence he brings to bear, are ignored: "He/she must be wrong because of who he/she is".

I can't say I agree with all the pro-socialist arguments. I believe that socialism has to change to recognize changes that have occurred in society ... a no-brainer really. To use decades old rhetoric is not all that useful in the twenty-first century. But some things have not changed. Let's use a Hyndburn MP number: 95% of folks are nibbling on crumbs that 5% let fall while they are munching on the cake. The exercise of political power is in the hands of the 5%. But the source of that power is with the 95%. It is the task of some form of socialism to mobilize this power, and begin the process of redistributing a nation's wealth.

Another thing that is bugging me is the continual use of simplistic analogies to describe how we can get out of economic messes ... believe me, we get this garbage over here too. A household budget is not a national economy in a complex economic world. I have no doubt that governments manipulate figures, and indulge in some dubious accounting practices, in order to present a picture of the economy that conforms to their ideologies.

Eric if you listen to C'mon and any of is little bunch of cronies (2) the ills of this country started on the 6th May 2010, when it was actually 1st May 1997, remember things can only get better, now we're paying £45 billion in interest every year alone, on reckless spending, but its hard to understand sat in a log cabin accross the pond

[Margaret Pilkington]

The other maddening thing is, that we are led to believe we can influence the way our country is governed, by exercising democratic process...voting......and before Mancie comes on here and tells me that I am not allowed an opinion because I did not vote.........
I didn't vote because it feels like it is a worthless process...because none of the political parties is prepared to listen to the fears and anxieties of the electorate.....

The uncontrolled immigration, the human rights act which seems to protect the criminals rights, but leave the victims not only without the same right the criminals want, but traumatised by the crime too.

The sleaze and corruption in government....which seems to go unpunished, the cosying up to big business(by all parties - not just the tories) so that they can gain financial favours...tax avoidance by large companies while pensioners are being landed with huge tax bills(through no fault of their own).......because HMRC can't do their sums right - and threatening to send bailiffs in if the tax isn't paid......but if you are Vodafone or Topshop.....you won't be hounded because your accounts are offshore and so therefore don't pay the dues that they should.

How can we, the little ordinary people get our point across if democratic process is ignored?

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by jaysay

the ills of this country started on the 6th May 2010, when it was actually 1st May 1997

A little quote which effectively illustrates the blindness of those who wear political blinkers of EITHER variety. The ills of this country didn't start on either of those dates, it's something which has crept up on us over a much longer period, aided and abetted by BOTH parties...and we've allowed it to happen.

[Margaret Pilkington]

How can you stop things happening if democratic process is no longer effective?

You could say that the withdrawal of my vote has allowed it to happen, but I didn't see my vote as having any power whatsoever...because there is no-one listening....and it doesn't matter how hard you shout....you are wasting your time and energy if there is no-one listening.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Eric if you listen to C'mon and any of is little bunch of cronies (2) the ills of this country started on the 6th May 2010, when it was actually 1st May 1997, remember things can only get better, now we're paying £45 billion in interest every year alone, on reckless spending, but its hard to understand sat in a log cabin accross the pond

Point is Jaysay, I do listen ... I may not agree all the time, but I don't dismiss his points because of who he is. And we do have similar problems over here (and I wish I could afford a log cabin, those things cost an arm and a leg) Some folks consider buying 80 F-35s is a little profligate ... or spending billions on new prisons at a time when the crime rate is taking a nose-dive. Conservatives over here believe that money spent on subsidizing day care, increasing pensions, expanding health care etc is a waste.

[cmonstanley]

same over here highest unemployment,highest homeless increase,highest re-posessions,highest borrowing[when they said they would reduce it will soon be added by the highest death figures on our coastline by shutting down coastguards DRIFTING FERRY HIGHLIGHTS JUST HOW DANGEROUS TORY COASTGUARD CUTS ARE | Russell Brown MP frigates having to travel 400 miles to intercept russian navy British Destroyer ship intercepted the Russian Convoys << update news today immigration at its highest when they promised to reduce actually they are doing nothing as they got rid of half of the staff welcome to the money saving tories Redundant and retired border staff return to cope with Games rush | News

[garinda]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

same over here highest unemployment,highest homeless increase,highest re-posessions,highest borrowing[when they said they would reduce it will soon be added by the highest death figures on our coastline by shutting down coastguards DRIFTING FERRY HIGHLIGHTS JUST HOW DANGEROUS TORY COASTGUARD CUTS ARE | Russell Brown MP frigates having to travel 400 miles to intercept russian navy British Destroyer ship intercepted the Russian Convoys << update news today immigration at its highest when they promised to reduce actually they are doing nothing as they got rid of half of the staff welcome to the money saving tories Redundant and retired border staff return to cope with Games rush | News

If I squint my eyes at that, I can see what looks like Fagin's face in the middle of it.

[cmonstanley]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

The other maddening thing is, that we are led to believe we can influence the way our country is governed, by exercising democratic process...voting......and before Mancie comes on here and tells me that I am not allowed an opinion because I did not vote.........
I didn't vote because it feels like it is a worthless process...because none of the political parties is prepared to listen to the fears and anxieties of the electorate.....

The uncontrolled immigration, the human rights act which seems to protect the criminals rights, but leave the victims not only without the same right the criminals want, but traumatised by the crime too.

The sleaze and corruption in government....which seems to go unpunished, the cosying up to big business(by all parties - not just the tories) so that they can gain financial favours...tax avoidance by large companies while pensioners are being landed with huge tax bills(through no fault of their own).......because HMRC can't do their sums right - and threatening to send bailiffs in if the tax isn't paid......but if you are Vodafone or Topshop.....you won't be hounded because your accounts are offshore and so therefore don't pay the dues that they should.

How can we, the little ordinary people get our point across if democratic process is ignored?

its your democratic right not to vote but i think a campaign should be started to reduce the deposit you have to pay to stand for parliament and the local councils so more parties can afford to enter the fray

[Eric]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

same over here highest unemployment,highest homeless increase,highest re-posessions,highest borrowing[when they said they would reduce it will soon be added by the highest death figures on our coastline by shutting down coastguards DRIFTING FERRY HIGHLIGHTS JUST HOW DANGEROUS TORY COASTGUARD CUTS ARE | Russell Brown MP frigates having to travel 400 miles to intercept russian navy British Destroyer ship intercepted the Russian Convoys << update news today immigration at its highest when they promised to reduce actually they are doing nothing as they got rid of half of the staff welcome to the money saving tories Redundant and retired border staff return to cope with Games rush | News

One thing I don't understand is the UK government's cuts to the military. On this side of the Atlantic, the military is the darling of conservatives, American Repblicans in particular .... Canadian supposi -tories also tend to increase funding to the military, at the expense, of course, of education, health care, welfare, First Nations, etc. I've read of the cuts to the Royal Navy, and to the Army and the Royal Air Force. Our conservatives, on the other hand, have pumped billions into the purchase of new multi-role fighters for the RCAF, and have allocated over $50 billion for the construction of new warships. Also the issue of border staff and the conflict with the police forces ... border security and policing are usually major tory concerns.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

its your democratic right not to vote but i think a campaign should be started to reduce the deposit you have to pay to stand for parliament and the local councils so more parties can afford to enter the fray

The normal array of nutters don't seem to struggle too much, raising their deposit.

You standing for the Scared Witless Ex-Accrington Residents - Forced Away By The Dog Stabber party?

[cmonstanley]

you just wont let it lie,down boy down boy

[Eric]

Originally Posted by groove

Politics politics yawn yawn bloody yawn

Actually, the points I am addressing are the illogic of ad hominem arguments, and the weakness of simplistic analogies. Have a nice sleep