The Coppice 'Gun Carriage'
 

Does anyone know the history of the wood and iron relic lying in the middle of the Coppice? It is commonly referred to as the 'Gun Carriage' but could be the remnants of some old farm equipment. I believe that there was at one time a cannon on the top of the Coppice but I don't remember it in my lifetime.
If this relic is as old as it looks, whatever it may once have been, perhaps a local school could start a project to identify it and research its history. Also, if its original form could be determined, maybe the students at Accy and Rossendale College could have a project to restore it. It could then be placed permanently in a prominent position on the Coppice for all to see (Accy's mini opticon?).

Re: The Coppice 'Gun Carriage'
 

All this has been discussed before in Heritage & History.
It would be a waste of good timber making a replica trunion.
The cannons that used to rest on them, were melted down in WW2.
There were also some cannons in Oak Hill Park, they were removed to make way for the War Memorial.
Retlaw

Re: The Coppice 'Gun Carriage'
 

Sorry if my question has re-awakened an old thread but the topic cropped up recently in conversation with other dog walkers who regularly walk on the Coppice and is therefore current for me. Although not specifically stated in your reply, I take it that the general concensus is that the relic is in fact the remains of the cannon which once stood on the Coppice. The melting down of the actual cannon barrel fits in with the mass removal of park and garden railings to be melted for the war effort.
By the way, trunnions are the iron pivot lugs protruding from each side of a cannon barrel. The wooden structure is called the carriage and personally I don't agree that restoring it would be a waste of good timber. I still think it would be an interesting historical project for a local school or college but that's just my opinion. Anyone else got an opinion?

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Yes, I too got taken aback by the word trunnion used in that context.

I think a restoration or replication would be a good thing, a bit of hands-on history, but then I am probably biased. Way back I was involved in something similar - I worked as a conservator for the Mary Rose Trust in Portsmouth and was one of a team who cleaned the bronze cannons recovered from the wreck. An original gun carriage was also recovered and a replica was made. We also had a fibreglass replica of one of the cannon made - much lighter for taking around for display purposes!

The Mary Rose - Armament - Page 4 of 9 - Guns

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The plural of cannon is cannon. Not many people know that ( Michael Caine)

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Quite right Bob. If you read my post above you will see I have used both cannon and cannons so mea culpa for getting it wrong once!

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I'd like to see a restoration project being undertaken.

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If I'm not mistaken those 3 Cannon/Cannons were put on the Coppice from Oak Hill Park, when the War Memorial was built, I remember sitting on the barrel of one of them before the war, then when the panic started at the outbreak of WW2, we weren't allowed up the Coppice for ages, whilst they were digging those ditches to stop Jerry invading, (look on Google Earth & theres the outline of over 2 dozen), the cannons vanished, but the wooden carriages remained. Whats the point of such a restoration, if you put it on the Coppice, the local yobbery will just smash it up, you could put it outside the market for the local drunks to sit on.
Retlaw.

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It would be shame on us if we let the yobs rule our actions.

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Thanks for the support. A fibreglass replica of the cannon barrel would be a brilliant completion to the project.
Anyone know of any old photographs of the cannon which could be used as a basis for the restoration?

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Somewhere in one of my boxes unpacked since we moved five years ago I have an old postcatd of the cannons on the Coppice. I'll have to see if I can dig it out but I'm sure I've seen the same pic on the www somewhere.

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There are old postcards of the said cannons when they were in Oak Hill Park. Can't recall any of them when they were on the Coppice, will have to check. From what I can remember, they were aprox 8 ft long about 4" bore.
Retlaw.

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I have found the PC, sent from 188 Stanley Street on 12 September 1912. I will try and get it scanned tomorrow if poss.

Meanwhile here is a picture of one of the cannon in Corporation Park, Blackburn.

Corporation Park's 150 Years

Re: The Coppice 'Gun Carriage'
 

Found a postcard of the Cannons when they were in Oak Hill.
John Kelly would know about them when they were on the Coppice, and if there are any photos. John salvaged part of one of the carriages some years ago, trouble is John is very ill at the moment and is unavailable.
Retlaw

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We need someone of the right calibre in the Town Hall to fire off this excellent suggestion.

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Gotta say i like the idea.:) Although if they scrapped the replica barrel idea n had a new un made, The grand opening ceremony could fire a shell at the Clown Hall. pmsl

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Clever choice of words there, but actually it's not a bad idea at all.

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Earlier than that!

At last here is my pic, four cannon/s on the Coppice, from a postcard postmarked September 1912. Printed/sold by Constantines Stationers of Accrington.

Here is also another link to the guns in Corporation Park. They came from the Crimean war - is the same true of the Accy cannons?

http://www.cottontown.org/page.cfm?p...0&language=eng

Re: The Coppice 'Gun Carriage'
 

If you look at the size & width of the wheels & the carriages, they are ship or garrison cannons. The horse drawn cannons used in the Crimea had diferent carriages and limbers. If you want to see a realistic view of cannons used on ships see the film Captain & Commander when they do gun drill, dammed good film, based on the life of a real Captain & Commander.
Note the eye on the breech end of the cannon for the recoil ropes to reeve through
Retlaw.

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Very interesting, Retlaw. I wondered what the eye was for. Any idea of the source of these guns?

BTW do you mean Master and Commander for the film? Never seen it but keep meaning to.

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Saw this ship when I was in San Diego a few years back. It is now used for events .. weddings/corporate/children's, etc.

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Reading a bit more about this, Peel Park and the Coppice were opened to the public in September 1909 HBC's website says: On the Coppice there used to be four guns which were donated by William Peel in 1910. They overlooked Peel Park and Peel's Accrington House. This would tie in with the postcard picture's date of 1912 when the cannons would have been a relatively new attraction.

Oak Hill Park was opened in May 1893 and the Friends of Oakhill Park website says: The mayor presented the two cannons which were installed in the higher position of the park now occupied by the War Memorial.

This suggests to me that the cannons in Oakhill Park are not the same as the ones on the Coppice although I can't be certain. I haven't been able to find any mention of what happened to the ones in the park.

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Thanks for letting us see the postcard. I'm absolutely stunned by the sheer size of these things and I think they look very impressive standing there overlooking the town. It's a real shame that they had to be destroyed.
I took some photos of the remains of the carriage yesterday and when I find out how to get them off my phone and onto my PC I will put them up on here.

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Here are the photos of the carriage in its current state. The first thing to note is that it is upside down.

Picture 1. The square cut-out would be for one of the axle blocks. The large scallop cut-out would be either decorative or for weight reduction and was between the two axles along the bottom. The small block hanging on its side shows the cut-out for the trunnion on that side of the cannon.

Picture 3. The end of this side which would have had a matching axle block cut-out has gone but the the large scallop cut-out is there.

Picture 4. This is probably the front block with a scallop cut-out on which the barrel would rest at its lowest elevation.

I agree that it was probably a ship's cannon and to get a better idea of what it looked like (it's difficult to see detail on the postcard picture) take this link to an 1823 French ship's cannon.
french1823

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Now that you have advertised that some scrap iron is lying in a publicly accessible place, it won't be there much longer.

The pixeys were armed with a stihl saw at dead of night when they removed a metal gate from a field boundary near my home.

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If you take another look at the picure of the cannon in Corporation Park, you will see a lkeness to your carriage bits on the Coppice.
The one advertised as a French cannon, has a different recoil eye, and the carriage is nowt like your bits, or the one in the park.
Retlaw.

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I did say that the French cannon picture was to get a better idea of what it looked like, not that it was exactly the same. The French one has square axle blocks and scallop cut-outs on the underside between the axles similar to the Coppice remnant. It also has stepped tops to the sides which can be clearly seen on the postcard of the Coppice cannon though this feature is no longer visible on the remnant.

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Well, apart from the fact that there is very little metal on the carriage, since they have only managed to drag this thing about 100 yards in 70 years I can't say that I'm overly concerned.

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Whilst searching for pictures of the floods at Rising Bridge, I came across this picture which I had forgotten about, it will give every one a better idea of what the cannons & the carriages looked like.

Retlaw

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Thats a cracker, nice un walter.:)

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Ya cracking photo Walter

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Apologies for being off-line for the past few weeks.
That really is an excellent photo of the Coppice cannon and will be most useful if we do manage to inspire a restoration project. One thing I did notice is the iron wheels which to me points to garrison cannon rather than ship's cannon which would be more likely to have wooden wheels. Anybody got any other thoughts on this?

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I think wheels on the gun carriages could would be changed if transferred from ship to garrison use, rather than different carriages.
Gun decks on ships were kept swabbed with water to prevent spilt powder ignitions during drill or battle conditions.
Charges for the guns were in bags, stored in the magazines, and the powder monkeys, (young boys) would carry them from the magazines up the ladders & through hatches to the gun decks. Bags could get snagged or torn & powder spilt
Retlaw.

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Cracking photograph, Walter. I remember my old fella telling me about attending Stanley's last match at Peel Park v Oldham, before World War II was declared. He was standing next to an Oldham fan who looked up to the cannons at the top of the Coppice and declared, "Eeh, they're ready for t'war 'ere!" ;)

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On a recent walk on the Coppice I noticed that the carriage remnant has now been turned the right way up. Thanks to whoever managed to do that because it is now obvious that an assumption of mine based on my original photos was incorrect:-

The small block on its side in my original picture 1 below is in fact for the trunnion on the other side of the frame. At some stage in the past this section has broken free from the main remnant and someone has non-positionally secured it to the main frame with aluminium strips - I suppose just to try to keep the whole thing together.

The 'front' block in my original picture 4 below had actually been pivoted through 90 degrees and is actually the trunnion block on the side to which its iron-work is still attached.

Seeing the remnant the right way up has definitely helped to get a better idea of its original layout.

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HMS Victory certainly has wooden wheels on the gun deck cannons, but I have a memory of the upper deck cannons being on some sort of wooden ramp - no wheels at all. Iron wheels could have caused a spark even though the decks were watered.
A lovely photograph, don't remember ever seeing them like that, my only memory is of the wooden carriages. Thank you Retlaw

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Latest photo of the carriage (right way up) with rough sketched outline of it's full original shape. Looking at the postcard pictures there appears to be some sort of ironwork trolley under the front wheels but it's not clear enough to work out the design. Anybody got any ideas? - steering mechanism perhaps?

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Those cannons ex ship, ex garrison were never intended to be used other than from fixed positions, that is shown by the eye on the rear of the cannon & the eye at the front end of the carriage, they are for attaching the ropes & pulleys for return to battery position, after firing and reloading. Horses would have great difficulty dragging that lot any where.
Cannons for field use had an entirley different carriage. Look at the Armstrong Field Gun circa 1850's that will give you some idea of a horse drawn field carriage.
Even if you did manage to make a replica of the carriage what good would it be without a cannon, where would you put it, on the Coppice, the local yobbery would have it within days.
Retlaw.

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Always so negative Walter. I've said before that the shame is on us if we let the yobs dictate our actions. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that these cannon were field guns to be drawn by horses - you dreamed that one up yourself. I thought we had already agreed that they were garrison cannon. I was only suggesting the possibility that the iron structure under the front may have been some mechanism to assist in re-aligning the cannon. That structure must have had a purpose and I'm open to suggestions (other than being horse-drawn) as to what.

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That structure must have had a purpose and I'm open to suggestions (other than being horse-drawn) as to what.[/quote]
From my last post. The structure had a purpose.
It is shown by the eye on the rear of the cannon & the eye at the front end of the carriage, they are for attaching the ropes & pulleys for return to battery position, after firing and reloading.
You mentioned steering, that implies transportation too another location. I don't intend to be negative, just can't see the point of making a replica, why not make a 1/8th scale model of a complete cannon & carriage and put it on display some where safer than up the Coppice.

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From my last post. The structure had a purpose.
It is shown by the eye on the rear of the cannon & the eye at the front end of the carriage, they are for attaching the ropes & pulleys for return to battery position, after firing and reloading.
You mentioned steering, that implies transportation too another location. I don't intend to be negative, just can't see the point of making a replica, why not make a 1/8th scale model of a complete cannon & carriage and put it on display some where safer than up the Coppice.
[/quote]

Comparing the eye on the front of the carriage with that on the rear of the cannon barrel and those (still present) on the sides of the carriage it appears to be much too small to serve the same purpose, ie. hauling the cannon back to its firing position. Also there's a lot more to the ironwork under the front than just an eye sticking out. That's what makes me think that it could be for sideways alignment as the cannon is reset for firing.

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Comparing the eye on the front of the carriage with that on the rear of the cannon barrel and those (still present) on the sides of the carriage it appears to be much too small to serve the same purpose, ie. hauling the cannon back to its firing position. Also there's a lot more to the ironwork under the front than just an eye sticking out. That's what makes me think that it could be for sideways alignment as the cannon is reset for firing.[/quote]
Its evident that you don't know much about ships cannons, or siege cannons, side ways movement is referred to as Windage, and was achieved by the use of 6 ft long iron shod levers.
Those eyes may seem too small for your inexperienced point of view but thats what they were used for, for a realistic episode of ships cannons at work I suggest you watch the film Master & Commander, thats as near as the real thing as you will ever get.
As for fire arms and such, I suggest you ring Fulwood Museum & ask for Jane the Curator, then ask her of my knowledge on the subject.

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Its evident that you don't know much about ships cannons, or siege cannons, side ways movement is referred to as Windage, and was achieved by the use of 6 ft long iron shod levers.
Those eyes may seem too small for your inexperienced point of view but thats what they were used for, for a realistic episode of ships cannons at work I suggest you watch the film Master & Commander, thats as near as the real thing as you will ever get.
As for fire arms and such, I suggest you ring Fulwood Museum & ask for Jane the Curator, then ask her of my knowledge on the subject.
[/quote]

Thanks for pointing out that I don't know much about ship's or seige cannon (actually I don't know anything at all about them) and that your knowledge of firearms and such can be confirmed by a museum curator (there I was thinking you didn't know your carriage from your trunnion).
Can we stop this silly bickering now.
I think we are pretty clear now that your knowledgeable believe is that the front small eye and its connecting ironwork under the front of the carriage to which the front wheels appear to be attached is simply to haul the cannon forward in a straight line. OK, got it, but still not fully convinced. Now let it drop, but preferably not on my foot.

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Thanks for pointing out that I don't know much about ship's or seige cannon Your welcome (actually I don't know anything at all about them) and that your knowledge of firearms and such can be confirmed by a museum curator (there I was thinking you didn't know your carriage from your trunnion). Oo you are sarky, is that your best cannon shot.
Can we stop this silly bickering now.
I think we are pretty clear now that your knowledgeable believe is that the front small eye and its connecting ironwork under the front of the carriage to which the front wheels appear to be attached is simply to haul the cannon forward in a straight line. OK, got it, but still not fully convinced. Now let it drop, but preferably not on my foot.[/quote]
One small thing I'm not bickering with you just trying to correct errors, windage on all fireams, guns or cannons is always applied from the rear of the weapon. The only weapon where windage is applied from the front, is the Bow & Arrow.

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Final word from me on this topic. I have contacted the following organisations in an attempt to have the carriage restored but without success.
Peel Park Master Plan - seperate funding required
Civic Trust - no response
Friends of Arden Hall & The Coppice - outside their scope
Accrington Pals Centenary Commemorations Group - not relevant to the Pals
My thanks to those, including a couple of AGSOBs, who have shown an interest in this topic.
If anyone should walk across the centre of the Coppice past the carriage please spare a thought for those for which the restoration was intended to remember - The Accrington Pals and their bereaved families.

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I saw this postcard recently. I've cleaned the image up a little so you can see the detail a little better.

Edit - sorry I should give credit - published by Constantine's Stationers Accrington c1913.

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Great pic that, nice one Pudwoppa.:)

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I've got one of those postcards, sure I posted the pic on here at some time.

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Yeh may well have done susie, perhaps when i was away, or more likely i got a crap memory.:D

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No Cashy, I can't remember whether I did either, or whereabouts if I did. I did however get a blowup of it for Bob Dobson to send to the people at the Peel Park to put on the wall!

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The same one's for sale on Ebay.