did orwell have a point ?
 

because of the posts in another thread, it got me thinking, at what price would we surrender our liberty?
to elaborate a little further, if a government said they were about to introduce measures that would irradicate most crime but with a considerable loss of civil liberty, would you accept it ?

i am not talking about the issue that we have at the moment with id cards, but things that reach much further,ie tracking devices on everyone, cameras in your own home, abolition of cash, real extreme stuff, but a gaurantee that most "serious crime" would be gone from our lives
what would you do

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

Orwell had a lot of points he spent most of the thirties trying to live and explain to his own social class the problems of the so called 'working class'. the points he was trying to make, no doubt are the reason why he ended up dying from T.B. instead of living to a 'grand old age' like most of the middle class. :(

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

the title of the thread wasnt really what i was trying to discuss, it was more of a teaser question regarding 1984 and the manipulation of the masses

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

Then start your threads as you mean to go on, with a correct title! banker:)

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

so sorry that i credited the users of this forum with the abillity to read posts, rather than see a title and post just for the sake of posting!!!!!!

as far the insulting someone straight off may i suggest beta blockers, i have heard they work wonders for jumped up half wits as yourself

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

Oh for goodness sake you admitted you titled it wrong now your blaming me for your own mistakes, please attempt a reasonable thread before you get upset with others! :D

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

1) where did i admit i titled it wrong, i explained my use of the title, not an admission of using an incorrect one
2)upset with others?, i took exception to your use of the term banker, wich you obviously didnt intend as a referance to my profession, i presume it was more concerned with my pastimes?, i felt it uncalled for
3)i havent ever read any rules on this forum that state the title must describe exactly what you wish to discuss
4)thanks for totally hijacking the thread and turning it into an detracted arguement about the titles of threads

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

It depends on the amount of liberty you would lose. E.G. phone tapping, cctv, monitoring of web searches do not affect your lifestyle, and are currently used
A) As a deterrent
B) As a method to catch criminals,

We know these are used and in general do not affect liberty per se. However searching of blogs, diaries, thoughts, etc are out of order without just cause.

All laws impinge on liberty by their very nature, however what liberty is prohibited is up for question. The liberty to commit murder is obviously repugnant and therefore banned.
However the liberty to say what one thinks and believes is a freedom that should never be curtailed.

Therfore I cannot answer the poll.

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

I might be taken away at any minute if the Thought Police work out what I'm thinking right now.:rolleyes:

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

to some degree we have lost that anyway have we not, in todays society we are not allowed to use sexist or racist language, in the days of politcal correctness, people with these views have lost the right to express them, i think we only have a liberty of freedom of speech if the majority agrees
on our opinions

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

the boys are on their way round lol:D

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

i,m unsure, many have died for our liberty, erradicating crime is great in principle,but very unsure at what cost:confused:i personally think as a starting point DNA samples at birth would go a fair way towards solving crimes n that i would go for.

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

In reality you've got to create a balance between respecting civil liberties, and the need for secure law and order.

I've no problem with the amount of CCTV we currently have, or the much anticipated i-d cards, if they ever materialise.

I'm always amazed when there's talk of Big Brother. If we were all to have our every move monitored, and phone calls recorded etc, who on earth is going to listen and watch it all, and who will be watching and listening to them?

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

hitler/ reborn

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

sod off ya ugly git:D he was me uncle.pmsl

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

the one i always find stange is the referance to hitler, if by having everyones dna on record creates a society that through fear of getting caught crimes were not committed would that not be a good thing? and what has that got to do with hitlers national socialism?

also if you have nothing to hide whats the problem


as for the other referance to who does the watching, who watches the watchers?

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

Damn good idea having a national DNA database.

Certainly help with missing child cases.

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

ya just gotta look at rape n murder etc, if everyones DNA was on record it would be a big step forward, cos crimes like rape n sexual offences you cannot erradicate cos they aint wired up right.

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

my be orwell did have a point, but that was what hitler wanted everybody with a tag on them and if we took dna at birth thats what would happen everybody being spied on, ho and im not as ugly as you

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

no but removing a certain part (or two) of their anatomy on the town hall steps with a 5lb lump hammer and a rusty chisel, would stop em from doing it again

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

LOL - you are both a bit wrinkly but that can give you added charm :)

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

I'd go one step further than collectiong DNA at birth, I'd practice eugenics on everyone who immediately cried fascist at the mere mention of increased security measures...or at least set up special camps for them up on Darwen moors.:D

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

you must be a right shifty barsteward if yer worried about a DNA database:D please dont burgle me house.;)

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

hes's more wrickly than me always has been

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

agree, but how many get away with these offences now?

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

i think its more a point of how many that do get convicted are repeat offenders, we have prisons but do we use them for punishment or cure?

i have never been to prison, but from what i have read and learned we tend to just use them for punishment

so in the words of the clash hang em high

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

if it was down to me they would never repeat,but i'm related to hitler.:D

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

you certainly know your stuff margaret, i am a catch!:D

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

hey i read what uncle adolf did to his neice, before he took to power, "come and sit on uncle adolfs knee, pet"

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

The prisons we have are full/overcrowded hence in recent weeks many offenders (albeit minor offenders) have been released.
Then there's the electronic tagging program (which according to a recent documentary) is flawed !!
In my opinion,all the technology available will not stop a determined criminal. But implementing new,effective measures to me now is a must (i.e with terrorism,peadophiles etc)
Also the judicial system needs a good overhaul. The punishment should reflect the crime.

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

I do not think we have any choice in the matter, what the 'powers' that be want us they usually get. I have not read any of Orwells works in any depth, but I have allways admired forward thinkers of like him and H G wells, Where did they get the inspiration to write these book's?. Most of what has come to pass.

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

i believe we would sit back and accept
anything and everything that any ministerial government
assured us was for our benefit
like lambs to the slaughter

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

agree many would,cashy accepts buggar all he dont agree with though.;)

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

i agree that anything the government wanted to do we would just allow them to steamroller over us, but my original point i was trying to get accross, was would we happily trade some of our "freedoms" for the irradication of crime, or is the price of that same freedom the crime rate that we have to endure today? and if so is it worth it?

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

would trade some freedoms, AFTER they reviewed the sentencing and made it more to fit the crime,cos until that is done its pointless loosing any more of our freedoms.

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

there aint going to be any trading
when the ministry decides
we will go along
dont make any difference if we are happy about
it or not

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

Give up freedoms for the promise of a crime free state ... I don't think so. Give up something millions have died for for a piece of Pie in the Sky ... or to put it another way: selling your birthright for a mess of pottage. I think that your American cousins are way ahead of you guys on this one. Many Americans, particularly the ones in power, would like to see the end of the ACLU, but they are a great conscience. Sure people could argue that safeguards will be in place, but who guards the guardians?

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

evryone has made valid points, but what i am saying is, IF crime WAS irradicated, would you see it as a fair swap, not the whole "they only do it it for ulteria motives" thing

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

First, no matter what you do, crime will never be erradicated. There will always be evil folks who perpetrate their ways.

Second, my dear Eric, if you love the ACLU so much, please take them off our hands. The US would be a MUCH better nation without the left-leaning liberal crap they attempt to constantly force feed down our thoats. Our founding Fathers wouldn't have put up with an inkling of the way they misread and misrepresent our Constitution. What a huge bunch of disgusting maggots! (oh . . . to quantify . . . IMHO)

Brian

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

Eventually there will be a form of living akin to Mega City 1 in the 2000 AD comic with Judge Dredd style police dispencing instant justice. Then there will be complaints galore but as we seem to be weak kneed when it comes to crime this is a possibility for the future. :(

Re: did orwell have a point ?
 

I don't love them, nor agree with all they do, but I do think that some such group is necessary. As your Supreme Court shows, and the cases brought before it, there are different ways of reading the constitution. In the decision it brought down on the abortion issue (Roe vs Wade???) their interpretation of the 14th and the 9th ammendments would not be accepted by even a mild right to lifer. And I do remember that some southerners who killed blacks and were acquitted by all white juries, were later tried, not for murder, but for violating the civil rights or their victims. And I do hope that you are not suggesting that your reading of the constitution is right, and that the reading of a group whom you do not support is wrong. I think that I mentioned somewhere else that right wing Americans, some of them anyway, would be prepared to toss out the first ammendment in order to prevent people from burning the flag!