Accrington Stanley
 

O.K. I don't follow a great deal of football, I've been to a couple of Stanley Matches and enjoyed my time there.

Could someone please explain, (in simple terms to the rest of us), what has happened to create the Dilemma that Stanley seems to be facing, I know the team means a great deal to a lot of people, I don't want it to go away, but how have thing's brought a greatly known team to what appears to be such a possible sad end?

Then perhaps those of us that don't actually support football can understand how we can help?

http://www.tiptopglobe.com/skin/smile/s3794.gif

Re: I know you're all busy but...
 

Simple answer is that the debt relates to the previous regime and dates back to 2005/6 (I'm sure someone will tel me if I have this wrong). Club originally went to court in June and thought they had 12 months to pay off the debt. They were then told last week that they have only 8 weeks to raise £308,000 to pay off the HMRC debt or they will be closed down (or go into administration to keep going but end up with a 10 point penalty) neither of which is ideal to the club.Whilst you may have only been a couple of times, the big problem with Stanley is that we have Premier League clubs either side (with better facilities) and a number of higher league clubs within 30 miles (Wigan, PNE, Blackpool, both Manchester clubs and Bolton). Since Stanley folded in 1962, the older generation of the town has gone to supporting other teams and since reforming in '68, the club has had a core of support from the town (currently around 1,000) but need more people to come onto the Crown to help out. Funding is in place to upgrade facilities but this will not happen overnight. However, the regime at the club have high hopes of being able to continue in the Football League for lots of years to come.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

the crux of the problem I would say was that ASFC grew too fast too quick. The off the field set up was unable to keep up with the on the field set up. All of a sudden we found ourselves in the Football League pretty much quite by accident!

At this point we had:
the smallest crowds (and still dwindling) in the entire League
the poorest facilities in the entire league.
the poorest paid players in the entire league (which goes hand in hand with the first two)

One of the advantages that goes with joining the 'Professional' League is that you get a massively bigger pay out from sponsors and TV (£70k as opposed to £400k) but much of this goes towards things such as Youth Academies and Football in the Community teams. Other clubs in the league already have these set up and have had for years. Once they are established they start to become marginally profitable with sell on fee's for developed youth etc. But setting them up is slow and expensive.

As I said earlier we came too far too quick. We had six full time staff when we left the Unibond in 2003 and six full time staff when we joined the Football League in 2006. Under Eric Whalley there was an attitude of spending money on players rather than the backroom set up - we needed the better players in order to compete on the field and carry on reaping the benefits! But we didn't compete, results dipped so crowds dipped. The sponsors didn't come forward as anticipated (or were lost due to incompetence).

The straw that broke the camels back was when Fraser Eagle went to the wall early this year. They still owed us £100k at that point and as you could guess that left a huge hole on our limited budgets.

The large debt we have now is majoritively down to 2006 when we joined the Football League. This debt has slowly reduced over the last three years but late payment charges and interest have crippled it. The losses suffered last season (Fraser Eagle etc) meant that we were unable to pay it at all.

So that brought us to June. The high court and HMRC claimed the debt must be paid in full over the next 12 months and adjourned for 2 months to see what happened. The club made no payments in that period as they hadn't actually been told (but the money is in the bank to pay them). They had budgeted to pay 18k a month plus lump sums as and when. Playing budgets were cut, and huge restrictions everywhere else were made in order to find the extra 18k.

Then this week at the 2nd court hearing the HMRC claimed the full amount to be paid over the next eight weeks as they weren't happy with the clubs attempts to make sure the debt could be covered.

It may transpire that provided we can make a substantial payment (at least half?) then they will allow us to revert to the 12 month plan. But they could certainly play hard ball and wind us up for being even just a few thousand pounds short.

Football is a funny old game as they say. Nobody went out with bucket collections when a national institution such as Woolworths was in the mire did they? But football is different - even if you are not a fan. Football clubs give hope and inspiration to their many fans. They help to prop up local economies and they provide focal points for 'tourism'. They provide venues for the many and varied activities that communities need and they of course provide employment (over 100 people are actively paid a wage by ASFC).

General public generosity in helping to save Accrington Stanley is not sent to the current or previous owner or Chairman, it is sent to the 'club' which is and hopefully will be there to transcend generations. Unfortunately ASFC hasn't always been this way because in 1962 it was allowed to fall for an, even then, paltry amount of £62k. A generation or two of football fans grew up without having a notable Football Club at the heart of its community. With your help, and of all those around us, that won't happen again.

There is no certainty that these problems will never arise again. But what does need to happen (and has been happening for a couple of years tbh) is that ASFC needs to get back into the community and re-establish what I believe are core values. Love your community and it will love you. But time has conspired against us this time and that core value has to go the other way around.


Thank you all for reading and I hope you agree with my understanding of the situation.


Rob Russell
Chairman, ASFC Official Supporters Club

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

The potted veiw of this whole thing at stanley at the minute is that the club have an outstanding debt of £308,000 to HM Revenue & Customs. This debt dates back to 2006 when the previous chairman was in residence and is for outstanding tax and NI.

a couple of months ago the club was summoned to the high court to discuss this and left having 'agreed' a payment plan with them. However the club were summoned again last wednesday with a view to being wound up. The new Chairman and CEO of the club attended and managed to persuade HMRC to postpone the winding up order and instead the club have been given 8 WEEKS to find what they had originally been given twelve months to find.

The bottom line here is Stanley need to find £308,000 in 8 weeks or they will be wound up in the high court and the town will lose their football club once again.

any help is greatly appreciated. Please use the banners here on accyweb or go to Save our Stanley

Thanks

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Thank you Less for asking the question......and the folk who have given the answers.
It makes a whole lot more sense now.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

its a good thing IMHO that people like Less n MargaretP are interested enough to ask, me dad took me everywhere home/away with the owd stanley until its demise in 62, i was then one very upset teenager, Accrington no longer had a club, so i went to the rovers, was a season ticket holder fer nearly 30 yrs, my dad sadly never watched another live game after stanleys demise, he was always convinced they would never be allowed back into the football league, due to being unable to complete there full fixtures back in 62, despite being a rovers fan fer all those years when Stanley returned to the league i started drifting back, now i'm a season ticket holder at stanley fer the 1 st time in my life, end of the day its my TOWN, from having a bar in spain i know fer fact Accy Stanley is held in affection from many many areas in britain, maybe thats the milk ad? maybe the 62 demise? maybe cos they are a "Founder Member" of the football league? who knows the reason? what i do know as others have said our home town club must NOT be allowed to die again. and will do all i can to help em survive, n hope enough folk feel the same, also they have started a great scheme fer the kids this season, would be a crying shame if that went.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Even if you're a non-football fan, it's worth considering just what an invaluable source of publicity the club is to the town (and, yes, I know there has been some unwelcome publicity in recent months but that is transitional and will pass). There are much bigger towns in the UK that no one outside their immediate area has ever heard of. But go anywhere in (and quite often outside) the UK and say you're from Accrington and most people mention Stanley. As Cashy says, for some strange reason the club is held in affection in the national consciousness in a way that no other small (or even large) football club is.

It'd be a shame to throw all that away again, but there are other reasons for wanting Stanley to survive. The new administration at the club are much more concerned with taking the club back into the community, as Macca describes. There is also a £1.2 million ground development in the pipeline, paid for by outside sources, which will make the Crown a much more attractive place to watch football in and also help it to develop further as a focus for the local community and to develop independent income streams. If the club fold, obviously all that will never happen. Because of the town's size and geographical location, Stanley is never going to be a premiership giant, but it could be a thriving, self-sufficient little club, given the right circumstances.

As non-football fans, it is of course up to you whether you make a donation or not, but hopefully we have given you something to ponder on before you make your decision.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Hardly Eloquent Cashy but spoken from the heart. :) Many of the Stanley faithful old guard where deeply hurt by the cold and callous events of 62, I’ve told before of how it effected my Grandfather who in 65 pushed his 5 year old grandson from his knee and said, “we don’t talk of such things in this house” My grandmother rebounded on him and said “Don’t be like that Tommy, he isn’t to know” I had never seen this big hearted man so hurt as he was that day. It came about due to two Stanley players that came to Church Kirk School to talk about the resurgent Stanley, One was a Goalie, the other a forward…who they where I never remember, but I became a Stanley fan that day. Of my grandfather, he died of Cancer in 69 never seen his beloved Stanley flourish….but he knows were back, and he knows we’re staying.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

One thing that is puzzling me about all this is why did they make a payment plan with HMRC and then not stick to it? Surely the bussiness brains at Stanley knew or should have known that defaulting on payments to HMRC is a no-no.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

when bernie,? under the impression they had 12 months. if yer talking before that, that was down the the previous Dictator....oops owner.:D the recent ones they were expecting to be notified of a date to start em as far as i'm aware.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

At the meeting in June when they were allowed twelve months to pay, would have thought payment details were made clear to them. I really do hope the money is made to save them believe me:)

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Bernie, that observation was made with a clear mind.
Monies collected for and on behalf of HMCE should not become the cash flow, or be used as the revenue of the club.
No matter who held the management at that time, the money is still owed to the Revenue.
It is a favour, not a right that the Revenue have held off.
If an agreement is struck as to the payment details and that agreement is not met, the Revenue have every right to foreclose.
Future investors will take this on board and it will take a very strong management team to convince those people that Accrington Stanley can be trusted.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

thats the grey area royboy, thinking ya have n agreement for 12 months, unless its in tablets of stone ya aint IMHO, no-ones disputing the I.R. can change the goalposts. simple fact is 308K in 8 weeks must now be met, other crap is fer afterwards time aint on Stanleys side.:(

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

At the end of the day Stanley have a bit of a cheek to come begging now after serious mis management...This club are a disgrace to the town.Most the team are arrogant scouse gits.We,v had them in the media nationwide after the betting scam (throwing games).And when the team went on a night out they behaved like animals.This club is corrupt to the core and should accept their fate as its well deserved IMHO

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

I take it that with such sentiments as the above you won't be contributing anything, (including a worthwhile explanation for the rest of us)?

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

The recession hits us all in the pockets, and I guess that football clubs around the country are all having to tighten their belts quite a bit.
This must have had an effect, and it doesn't matter how good management are, if the folk can't afford to go through the turnstiles then the money just isn't there.

While I am not a follower of football, I do think that the football club are an asset that we cannot do without....for the reasons stated in other posts.
They do what Peter Britcliffe would love to be able to do......that is, draw attention to the town of Accrington.
I have travelled far and wide and when I say I am from Accrington, everyone has heard of Accrington Stanley.

Accrington Stanley must survive, it is a good focus, a healthy focus for the people of the town.
I applaud all the work that is being done to ensure that the HMRC get their pound of flesh(bleeding Shylocks)!

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

i presume groove has gone to Billy Smarts, its time fer the Clowns to practice.:rolleyes:

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

I just assumed with HMRC coming down so quickly on the club that the plans drawn up in June meant monthly payments over the next twelve months to clear the debt. We will probably never know for certain so all we can hope for now is that the fantastic fund-raising efforts by all involved come to fruition and save "The Stanley"

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

that is the whole point, its decent ordinary people, pulling their tripe out, to save one of accys best assets, (120 jobs) as someone posted, probably more if ya include the franchise stalls/counters in the crown ground, it is not a time fer "Who Did What" that will not be n issue if unsucessfull, all groove has tried to do IMHO is undermine these good people n in my eyes tells me what kinda person groove is.:(

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

What's ironic is that at long last, the club are showing signs of making progress. Fans will tell you that over the last few weeks, the club has become more user-responsive to supporters and altogether more professional in the way it goes about things. Merchandise is delivered promptly, the website is kept up-to-date, new initiatives are regularly introduced. The projected new ground improvements can only serve to make the club a more enticing prospect to the citizens of Accrington. There is now a real chance that the club could start to pay its way.

It would be a crying shame if the club slipped back into oblivion now, just as it's about to enter a new phase.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

with any luck it'll be saved and accy will still have its stanley .... and with the people of accy hopefully pulling together they might get some more fans from this ....

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Name them

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Look,i really feel for the supporters and the dedicated staff etc and agree that a league team could be beneficial to the town,but when you take away the sentimentality it has been one disgrace after another.To elaborate although a few years back now,the team went drinking locally and behaved like animals as reported in Observer.Then we had the betting scam,and then when Steven Gerrard got nicked that night the main instigators are two Stanley players.Dunbavvin i think one of thems called Jeff!!! hope for the decent folk who watch Stanley they get out of this mess.I understand that Mr.Whalley was in charge until recently-talk about rats and sinking ships! I was over the moon at Stanleys initial resurgance but after the above events and a first team player talking to a friends dad with utter contempt in players lounge towards end of last season,all sympathy for the playing team particularly is rapidly disappearing.Sorry to offend and hope its a case of ON STANLEY ON...Then maybe the club can give something back to the town

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

notice ya came back wi proof of yer claims as less requested.:rolleyes: i fer one think yer a bitter twisted clown.:( and don't believe a word of yer "i really feel" crap, find a deep hole n bury yerself in it.:(

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Na cashy he or she have got their face on back to front, they ain't a clue whether they're coming or going, hopefully going:(

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Just a quick thought, how is this money being collected?

If it is just, the life and soul of the supporters giving to keep the Club alive and not registered as a charity, couldn't the people demanding their cash, (tax etc.), then turn around and say o.k. you've paid off your debt, but with money you got as some form of profit?

I would hate for you to go through all this effort only to be stuck with another bill from them for the hard work you are putting in.
:o

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

There were six in total arrested with Stevie Gerrard that night so how do you know that our two players were 'the main instigators' - were you there? Yes, they were involved but at least they held there hands up, were sentenced accordingly & have apologised publicly - unlike the famous Stevie G who was declared innocent even though there was footage of him punching the bloke.
The betting scam made all true Stanley fans sick to the stomach - but these players are gone now and the club itself was not to blame.
Lastly, pray tell me where our 'players lounge' is - we do not have one, unless you mean the sports bar where everyone is welcome & I can honestly say I do not believe any of our players would abuse anyone in there unless they'd maybe been given a mouthful themselves - even then most of them would simply walk away. If you don't want to donate - thats fine and is your perogative but don't make up stories as an excuse not to.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Donations from supporters should not be classed as profit.
What I would make sure of is that donations from supporters to help the club is not swallowed up by the revenue. I think a responsible person in charge of that amount of donated monies should be involved in the negotiations with the revenue and the club. The donated monies should be used as a bargaining tool if required to secure a deal.
If the Revenue do not agree to an extention of the deadline, the responsible person should be in a position to withdraw the offer of the donation.
I feel sure that the revenue will make a deal and grant an extention but make sure all uncrossed boxes are ticked before commitment is made and the money is handed over.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

The Revenue usually accomodates, to some degree, debtors who don't wait to be chased before asking for time to pay. Did someone mention that this was tax and NIC that was not paid over when due? In other words, was this PAYE tax due on players' wages under a previous régime?

What HMRC will not tolerate is default on an existing arrangement and, when time to pay is granted, that is made very clear to the debtor. If he defaults, the whole amount becomes due immediately. I know absolutely nothing about this case but, from what I've read here, I'm guessing that's what happened. It's a shame for the club and I hope they can resolve it without going out of business again.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

That learn'ed observation is spot on.
Someone, somewhere is not telling the absolute truth.
Is the club insolvent or not?
Can the liabilities be met by the current disposable assets?
The money is owed and due. Pray that the Revenue Officer dealing with this case knows that there are many people out there who would not wish Accrington Stanley to go under.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Why not put this thread where it should be?
Accrington Stanley and combine all contributions to sensible debate?

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Posted via Mobile Device westender It was paye ni contributions from 2006 period. Not vat as that was sorted, n upto date on tax from after that date tho most of us was aware the the previous regime struggled paying wages upto end of reign but was assured by newly chairman that this tax bill only relates to the period of '06.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Was that when the new chairman etc. came in? Rotten to inherit old debts but, unfortunately, it still has to be paid. :(

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

He must have signed to inherit the debts. :confused:

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Oi karma buff, read the first post of this thread then you will see why it's in questions and answers.

Can I also draw your attention to my reply to another of your posts elsewhere?

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/739314-post57.html

I took the time to answer your stupid questions so before you ask more stupid questions such as the above, don't you think you should try to answer those?

Or had you hoped I'd forget if you were to lay low for a while, now get off this thread unless you have some really worthwhile, (doubtful), contribution to make.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

i will be at the turf doin my bit.......forums are about oppinions,ok mine may be some what controversial but surely i can express an opinion without being ostracised by messyrs casman etc

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Do not take the name of cashman in vain groove, people have died for less ;)

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

No..........I chose to ignore your ignorant ramblings. :rolleyes:

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

I'm at Blackburn fan and I will be there on Friday to watch the game!

Hopefully there'll be a collection outside of Ewood on Saturday too. I'm sure that some of our fans will place money in boxes!

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

So ignore this thread, you aren't wanted here or from the little I've seen in the Stanley section, this is so that we, non footballers can help, not so you can spread your usual ignorance on me or the 'World Famous Stanley'.
:tongueout

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Or you could prove yourself to be backing Stanley by volunteering to make some badges they can sell, after all, you will have plenty of metal left over from the no show of the badges you promised for accyweb.

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

Oh, look he's gone off line, now maybe we could have a conversation about how non football supporters can help the Stanley?

Re: Accrington Stanley
 

If you pay Accrington Stanley for the use of their intellectual rights and copyright, I will make the badges......that could be your contribution.
There was a technical problem with the making of the Accyweb Badge as was explained at the time...The tooling in 3D would be prohibitive.
That Logo is now defunct so it would have been a wasted exercise anyway.
I went offline to have a salad and a G&T on the balcony in 32 degrees of sun.
Now pull your neck in and go back to sleep.