Chip 'n' Pin
 

As most of you will know by now they are changing our bank cards to Chip 'n' Pin. Will it really be a safer way to shop? It works by you putting your card into the machine chip face down and you entering your PIN (Personnal Identification Number) supposed to be safer than using signature. This way people can't forge your signature therfore reducing card crime!

Now we have this installed in our shop and by Jan/Feb all shops will be using it and shops wont be able to accept a signature so what will happen if you forget your number as i know many people these days have more than one card and it can get confusing especially for the elderly.

I haven't come across one person who remembers the PIN for their visa or Mastercard as you don't use it to get cash out of the machine it's to expensive.

So here's my question: How do you think this will work, have you used chip n pin yet? Is it a good idea or not and why?

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

With chip and pin you choose the number therefore making it easier to remember. I haven't used it yet, but they have had this system in New Zealand for quite some time. Over there it is known as EFTPOS. People use it for everything, they swipe their cards through petrol pumps, use it at local shops for the smallest purchases etc. Nobody carries cash. This does have some advantages in that the locals reckon that it has cut down on card fraud and that you rarely get muggings. I think it's a good idea and have no qualms about using this system. The thing with EFTPOS is that if your money isn't in the bank it will not let you pay. Therefore you cannot overdraw and incur bank charges without first arranging it with the bank.:)

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

yes lettie thats how it was in australia when i went in 1996 they did agree it was a better system

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

As lettie says, with C&P you can change your PIN number to one that you can remember. It will reduce card fraud as without the pin you cannot make a payment. The number of times I used my bank card when the signature had worn off and no-one challenged me was untrue. So lazy till operators are now removed from teh equation. Either you know your number and get the goods or you don't and teh transaction is declined. I know some people find it hard to remeber PIN numbers etc but at least with C&P you can make it a memorable number(birthday, wedding anniversary, house number, last 4 digits ofyour phone number etc)

I have used C&P loads of times at many different shops. One thing to be aware of is that it is perfectly acceptable to shield the pinpad from casual observers. Use your body if there is a queue of people behind you and if someone is looking over your shoulder refuse to enter the pin until they retreat.

Ian

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

As a cashier myself and certainly not 'Lazy' in any way i find the 'Chip 'n' Pin' rather difficult at the moment as if the customer does not know their pin then yes we can over-ride the system but this takes 30 seconds and this feels like forever when you have a line of people all staring at you waiting to be served. (not good when they are in a rush) as this could happen to the next person in line aswell.

Also where a signature strip has faded as a cashier i know the abuse you can get when asking a customer if they have something else with their signature on ' and quite often they dont, mainly men who just go out with their card not wallet/purse.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I think in these times of hightened sercurity its time the UK had a driving license with your photo and signiture on it and for those who dont drive an ID card with all your relavent information on. Britain is one of very few countries who dont have ID cards but does have the most credit card and bank card fraud. Could be a link?

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I've come across the 'Chip & Pin' system whilst working in France. It has been in operation for a number of years there, and is reckoned to have cut down on card fraud significantly.

Having said that, I don't remember the number for my Visa card, so does this alienate me from the system?

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

You do have to have your photo on your driving licence now Bazf.I know my nephew has.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

If you need to update your license for any reason, they will include a photo. I think Grego's was put on when she changed her address. My drivers license is still the old mug shotless one, I have had ne reason to change it. I think that photo licenses or ID cards should be issued in this country. Never mind the do-gooders saying that it is turning into a 'big brother' society. If you've done nowt wrong then you've nowt to be afraid of. I'm looking forward to getting my chip and pin. As I've said before, I have seen this working in other countries and it seems to work well. :)

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I use chip & pin and I do find it easy. I don't have a problem remembering numbers, but if you do, you can always put it into your address book disguised as part of a phone number. You just have to remember which phone no!

I always have my passport with me, but I do agree that ID cards are a good idea. We had them during the war, so why not? It would cut down on benefit fraud, fraudulent driving licences (it happens a lot, no photo, so one driving licence between 10) and all sorts of abuses of the system. As Lettie says, you've nowt to be afraid of, and if you have then you should be afraid.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

Same here, France was the first place i saw it, and i believe that card fraud was reduced by 70% once the system was fully up and running.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

Can only be a good thing as far as im concerned. We have had our chip n pin terminal for about 3 mths now and found that about half of the ppl know their pin. It is a new system and ppl need time to adjust, thus the Jan 05 deadline. Whilst the system is still open to fraud (i.e someone gets your card and pin they could have a field day) it is far easier to change your pin than your signature. Also the checking is taken out of the cashiers hands thus human error is removed. In a few years time it will be second nature to us all. One thing I think is needed is a secondary ID like a picture on the reverse of the card. Still give it about 3 or 4 years and they will by introducing retina scans and fingerprint recognition....... there's a thought!

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

it's still something to be wary of, we've had several cases of fraud over here, particularly in gas stations, if the card is swiped twice- the cashier says it didn't go through 1st time) the 2nd transaction after you've entered your number is closed but the first is left open. they go back into it and by zooming in with whats on the security camera tape, work out your pin from there and just make a cash withdrawal. The scan that went on here did that for a few years, only taking small amounts out at a time therefore on your statement it didn't look like unusual activity. Therefore getting away with quite a large sum of money. so as it was pointed out below, always shield your entery, esp cause security cameras are usually pointing straight at the checkout and when putting gas in the car, forget about rounding it up to the nearest pound, who cares if this means the cashier has to add odd numbers, that way you'll always be able to catch any unusal activity from the gas station.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I suppose however hard you try there will always be some unscrupulous person who will beat the system. This has to be more secure than the old/existing system. I have more than one card and can only manage to remember the pin numbers for the two which I use most. (In order to draw cash from ATMs) but I'm sure that as I get used to using the numbers it will be easier to remember them.

EFTPOS actually means "Electronic Funds Transfer at Point Of Sale" also known as EPOS (Electronic Transfer at Point Of Sale) and refers to the method currently in use here where a card is swiped through a machine as opposed to the older system where the cashier had to fill in a form which was then placed on top of your card in a contraption which had a piece they pushed back and forth resulting an the card image being impressed on the paper(s) (usually in triplicate). These were then included in the till in much the same way as cheques and sent through the bank clearing system. Your account was not debited until it reached your bank. They often had to phone the bank to verify that funds were available over a set amount (which could change on a day to day basis so that potential thieves didn't get blase about how much they could possibly get away with)

Now your account is debited immediately the card is swiped - hence the bit about not being able to accept the transaction if you don't have funds in the account. That's true up to a point (unless you have an agreed overdraft limit) but only if you are using a debit card. If you are using a credit card (the one where you borrow money and pay it back) then it will be accepted up to your credit limit.

I still think cards are safer than cash. If cash is stolen it's gone but at least with a card you have chance to phone up and put a stop on it.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

It is quite true you do get a photo fitted drivers licence now and it has been that way for almost 3 years thats how long my partner has had his for you can also get it changed to one if you have a change of address or any other details which need amending.

I.D cards you can also get hold of over here now, you get a form ive seen then in the spar shops you fill it out send it off with a photo and a fee and they send you an I.D card the actual name for it is a UK CITIZENCARD, it is home office approved. you can visit WWW.citizencard.com for more info.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

Isn't that for young people to prove they are old enough to make certain purchases? (ie alcohol not to be sold to under 18s)

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

no its available to all ages its basically a card that proves who you are and your age its accepted by most retailers, airlines and banks i have one of the forms here but would'nt know how to get it on here.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

Chip "n" Pin is a great idea but I wish that the change over could be quicker. You see the little gadget at the till, put in your card and watch as it reads, finger poised to enter your 4 digit code.....onlyto be distracted by the till operator who is waving a receipt in your face to sign!!

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

Busman, if the machine asks you for your pin and you put it in then there is no reason for you to sign obviously if you dont know your number then you will have to sign for now but in future you will have to remember the numbers for all your cards.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I think you just misunderstood there Mummiboo. I was there on a couple of those occasions and the machine didn't ask for the number. Presumably it just hadn't been set up yet or was off line or something. It wasn't a case of Busman having forgotten his number.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

Ahh,sorry busman i just re-read it and i did read it wrong i thought you said you had entered your pin but you didnt sorry!

Yeah you are right some people dont have a number yet.
Halifax cards have a chip but even the chip n pin machine dont recognise these cards and they say they are none alpha-numeric ?

So don't worry your not on your own as a cashier myself i will be more happy when this thing really kicks off!!!

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I have a Halifax card, Asda chip & pin will not accept it, neither will thier 24hr petrol machines.

So at some point I have to order a new card & be without any money for a week while they send me a new one, still the basic idea is good.

As for ID cards, yes they can be a good idea, although I have no idea what criminal activity the will reduce & I hate the idea that the govermnet is going to charge us £30+ each for them.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

No, you shouldn't have to order a new card and be without one. The banks etc are gradually replacing their cards and should send you a new one automatically and tell you when to destroy the old one and start using the new one, which it sounds like Halifax may have already tried to do but the cards don't work?

Maybe you should let Halifax know that you've got a problem using them.

Although I don't mind the idea of an ID card I too object to the fact that if it is being imposed upon us they then add insult to injury by expecting us to pay for it.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

With most cards it is possible to change your pin to one you can remember so just either use same number for all cards or differ by just one number example 1234 for the 1st card got 1235 for 2nd card etc. etc.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

sorry ellen its not a good idea to change your cards to all the same number cause if a thief gets your purse and gets your number they got all your cards to play with.

you will need to keep all your cards as different as possible these kind of thiefs know all the tricks in the book they can even clone cards that are exact replicas of your card but the magnetic strip dont contain any information so when swiped nothing comes up they make the card look old and worn so the cashire has to key in the number and coz it got your number on its your account the money comes out of !

Its very clever stuff thats why you need to keep your numbers as different as possible. :-)

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

Yeah I agree with what you say but what I don't understand is why anyone would want to carry more than one card at once anyway.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I am sorry but I don't agree with this c&P method, I was in a local supermarket and this young lad said to his mum ,just as she had done her number."what's 4596 for mum?" It is open to a lot of abuse to me, My partners mum is 4 ft 8 the world can see over her shoulder, she is 83 and is terrified of this system, just because anyone can get her number.So we told her to just do what she has done before and say she can't remeber. I think if it was your signature and your pin then that would be better. Not many could sign my signiture and thats the way it is staying. I just say I can't remember the number.The cover for the number pad is not private enough for me.At least at an ATM you can cover your hand with your body or a handbag etc.
I'll stick it out until there is no other way, I can't see them ever being able to do it as someone will forget the numbers.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

i agree with you baconman but you will only be able to hold out till january after that if you dont know your PIN then you dont get the goods!

If you read back its been said before the chip n pin machine does detatch from its stand and is on a coiled wire so you can remove it from its stand and hide it any way you want but it dont solve the PIN problem maybe change it to your house number and birthdate? i dont know.
Which reminds me i need to find the PIN for my mastercard n memorise it.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I had a mental block this afternoon! Couldn't remember mine at all.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I have seen the C&P used extensively in Australia and it does not seem to cause any problems at all. I am looking forward to getting my new card, but my husband will be stymied.....and he has only just got used to using his switch card...... he cannot remember numbers for the life of him. I do not think it is a good idea to write your pin number down anywhere disguised as a telephone number...... the card companies warn against doing anything like that and it would imvalidate any card protection insurance that you have.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

I ordered a new PIN for my credit card.

I then tried to change it at the ATM when it came through, but it wouldn't allow me to.

So I called Tesco Personal Finance and asked them why this was, and was told that I didn't have a Chip & Pin card, but I had a Chip & Signature card instead. They were phasing them in and asked me whether I wanted the new one.

I politely declined, as they only sent me this one a few weeks ago - the previous one got cloned and someone in New Jersey had a field day...

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

well im sorry but i really dont know how they can phase them in coz starting from january shop wont be able to accept a signature at all as mentioned previously! I have also mentioned cloned cards see everyone it really does happen.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

Last week we were in a shop which was still using the old swipe machine.

Re: Chip 'n' Pin
 

yeah i think many shops still have the old swipe machines but they are trying to phase in the pin numbers