62 Abbey Street
 

Anyone have or can point in right direction ref information on the Public house that used to be located at the corner of Warner street and Abbey Street opposite the Black Horse.....currently a gents hairdressers.

Apparently built around 1821 ish..i think

Cheers
Phil

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Yep same site...Apparently the docs surgery and the Hairdressers were connected and were once a pub.....according to Garry who owns the hairdressers..he's done some research but there is a gap in its history...up to 1821 it was a pub then from about 1860 it was a pub again, but inbetween he thinks it stopped being a pub for some reason.

Come on Walter I'm relying on you....maybe you used to frequent it in the 1800's and partake in a dram or two.....LOL

Phil

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Sarky ******.
There is no record of a pub on that site in the mid 1800 licence aplications, and a search of the 1911 census, shows a jump in numbers from 58 which is now the Black Horse to number 64 Abbey St. 60 & 62 are missing. I need a persons name to search any of the previous census records, as there is no facility to search by street name in them.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Looking on Google Sreetview the three buildings going south from the corner, ie the surgery, hairdressers and what looks like a cafe, were built at a different time from the ones going towards the other end of the block, as the rooflines don't quite match up.

The property now a surgery has an entrance angled across the corner and a cellar, both features that suggest it may have been a pub at one time. Also there are quoins (larger stones) between the hairdresser and the cafe, suggesting that the doctor and hairdresser were once one property, and the LH facade of the cafe juts out on to the pavement, again suggesting a different date for building from those further down the block.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I have done an address search for the 1861 and 1871 Census returns and there is no mention of a pub at that address.
I have attached the images below.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I think the pub was there till at least 1821 and then it stopped being a pub sometime up to 1861. I think my friend said there were three pubs at one point, the warners, the black horse, and this one. They built Warner street to connect the three pubs.
The hairdressers was apparently the Snug, and there was an opening into the surgery at the back...you can still see where the door was.......The original stone troughing still runs across the hairdressers and the surgery.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Perhaps yer friends confusing things? The now Defunct "Duke Of Wellington" a Thwaites house was just further down,below what was the National Mill Stores Shop, but before the traffic lights.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Warner St is one of the oldest streets in this part of Accrington, and was in existence before little Blackburn Rd was built, or the pubs were thought of.
Abbey Street was the main street of New Accrington, and the numbers on the properties in Warner St run from top to bottom. they were changed at one time, but the numbering was changed back to its original state, it is possibly the only street in Accrington in which the numbers don't start at the town center end, the even numbers are on the left as you walk up. Other streets have the even numbers are on your right as you leave the town center.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Was Duke of Wellington not on opposite side of Abbey Street, next to what used to be Viva Gas?
I know I was not born and bred in Accy, like most of you lot, but in early 80's, I had a kitchen showroom at no.79, opposite Gene Sutcliffe's, & not only had a working relationship with Dougie at Viva, but also supplied kitchen units for private quarters at DofW. A short time later, they introduced topless barmaids..... Unfortunately, after I was allowed back stage access!!

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Phil, here is a photo of that part of Abbey Street in 1907. The Black Horse is just to the left of the lamp post in the middle distance.. Going away from the town centre there are then your three buildings. The fourth one from the Warner Street corner appears to have a sign board over but I can't make it out. It's on what looks like a projecting porch.

I post this really just out of interest, not because it throws any light on our quest for a pub.

http://lanternimages.lancashire.gov....21&r=2&t=4&x=1

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I will try and get some more details off him. He did say that certainly next door to his shop, the surgery, had a cellar that was disused and I think boarded up, and when it was last sold it had to be accessed for the survey on the property and to be emptied of any rubbish. He remembers asking the men who were doing it if there might have been a old pub sign down there, but to no avail. He said there is/was a grill in the street where he believes the dreymen used to drop the ale into the cellar.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Yep, that's how I knew the building had a cellar. Have a look at STREETVIEW.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Yeh it was, tis me thats got confused.:D Across from Gene Sutcliffes used to be Harry Bradshaws Home @ Export, which was in fact warehouse fer National Mill Stores @ Also Branded Lines, Worked yon from Dec 63.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Is there anywhere in Acc that Cashy has not worked?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

From my knowledge of the Cashmeister (by his very own comments ;)), it's more a case of where he's been banned from or kicked out of than worked. :D

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Very few places Mr Dobson, was asked to name the firms i had worked for n dates, this was back in mid 70s, n fer National Insurance purposes,:eek: Took me approx 3 months to figure out, the total then came to 52 jobs, n i never included a few "cash in hand" places.:D

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I suppose that's how you arrived at being Cashman. and beholden to nobody.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I reckon the correct answer to this question is "everywhere" ;)

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

The facade of the Arden looks unchanged Susie.. and yes intriguingly looks like a pub sign on the left where Kemp & Smiths barbers was..

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Certainly on the 1890/1910 map it does show this property as one building :

Attachment 29427

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I have asked the library staff to research this. They can find no evidence of it having ben a pub. Shops too had cellars accessed from the street using pulleys/block & tackle. I have previously looked at the earliest directories and seen no pubs other than the well-known ones. When Abbey St was young,(say up to 1830) there were only half a dozen pubs in the town

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Seem to recall Ribblesdale Coaches next door to Barbers?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Toffee shop young Mr c, think they were agents for Ribblesdale.:confused:

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I remember when that was a toffee shop, when rationing ended after the war, there were dozens of people jostling to get in the shop, not having much money I didn't bother, saw very little toffeee during the war except for Lythes off Gillie St, he would sell us kids 1d bags of bits that were left over from when he made mint humbugs. Other things were even scarcer oranges & banana's, only ever saw oranges around xmas time, ships during the war carried more important things than fruit.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Aye that would be it, used to jump on coach yon fer away games mid 60s.:)

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

More information...He believes the pub was built in 1827 and ceased being a pub around 1860ish. It was one of three pubs...the Warners, The Red Lion (not the Black Horse as I thought earlier) and this one. The houses around were built so the streets efectively connected the pubs. The address was originally 1 Warner st and 60 Abbey Street. The doctors surgery bought it from Babyland and as I said before the cellar had to be cleared and opened for the survey.
Gary said he watched some workmen empty the cellar and there were old beer barrels and beer pumps and other old pub paraphenalia down there and The owner of Babyland Ronnie Ormerod confirmed it used to be a pub and new the name of it but has flamin forgotten what it was.

Maybe the 1841 and 1851 censuses might throw more light on the matter. Could it have been an Ale house perhaps..were they sightly different to a pub maybe

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

In the early wee hours (no pun here Mr c) I was contemplating my navel and my mortality, along with Mr Aguero's great goal against that lot in Red skirts on Monday night* ;)

I mused on was the shop next door to the toffee shop (the one that sticks out) not a tobacconists?

* Oh yes and Drogba's cheeky backheeled goal last night :)

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Now i'm confused:confused: was the one that sticks out not the toffeee shop?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

mmm ..I have a vague memory that you went up a step into the toffee shop?
They may have been combined? I can remember displays of pipes and smoking paraphenalia in the window of the sticky out shoppe I think :confused:

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Linking this back to the Cabbages & Kings thread on Anything Goes...
My mate at Thwaites sent me this.
A number of Abbey Street pub names long forgotten that just could have been at #62 ?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Thats n interesting pic DtheP:)

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

My mate Denzil tells me the booklet is "An Accrington Mixture" edited by one Bob Dobson (1995)....no nooooo there can't be two Bobs can there?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

No not to my knowledge, God wasn't that dumb.:D

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I have checked the 1851 Census but no Street numbers were given in that or the 1841 survey. I have found the pages where Abbey Street and Warner Street join but no Pubs Or Alehouses just Hardware Dealers and Grocers.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I remember that I got that list about 1994 from a police archive in the Lancashire Archives at Preston, but I have since discovered some mistakes (eg Pickup's Arms) in it. We do have a lot of information on our pubs, but there's a lot more work needed to bring us anywhere near 100% accuracy. I know what I want to do, -I just don't have the time.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Ah! well it looks like our "pub" name is going to elude us....unless we can find someone who used to drink in it........LOL
Anyone know Ronnie Ormerod who owned Babyland and apparently new the name of this "pub".

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Just checked the 1861 census and 62 and 64 are Hardware dealers etc. I've been collecting the names of all the Pubs, Yards, Courts and Alleys for years, sarching thro census returns, & Licence renuals, bur never found any thing relating to 62 Abbey St, what I would like to know is why the jump from 58 Black Horse to number 62, wheres 60.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Ronnie Ormerod from Ossy? would he be 65ish?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Just sorta' wondered like, if nobody was actually in residence at the time (or premises empty), would it be left off the census ?

In 1849, it was split into two:

Attachment 29480

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I know the Arden was formerly the Flying Dutchman but the locations of the Lark Inn, Curriers Arms and Weavers Arms may help by a process of elimination?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

No when you compare census returns 41/51/61/71/81/91, there is evidence of a No. 60.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Thoae 3 pubs were no where near Warner St.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

What I was trying to say is that a census records people and where they were living, not properties... is this correct ? Wondered if it were a shop premise, but the proprietor lived elsewhere.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Well, it doesn't make sense to enter a property where there is no-one living in it ....:confused:

The Burgess Rolls, of course, are an Electoral Register so wouldn't be any point in listing it if nobody was in permanent residency. Perhaps the ones listed as 'empty or unoccupied' were domestic properties only and not business premises ?

There again, could have been half-day closing when they did the census ... :D:D

Would there be anything in the Barrett's Directories ?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

dont actually know him....he owned babyland I believe

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Maybe the pub was three buildings at one point...1 Warner street and 60 and 62 Abbey Street ...or vice versa, and when it stopped being a pub (if0 maybe it was made into two buildings, 1 Warner st and 60 Abbey st making the doctors bit now and 62 Abbey st now the hairdressers. It was suppossed to have been a pub from1821 to 1860 ish

It certainly looks like the buildings either side of 62 and no 1 were built afterwards

Phil

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

There is nothing in the 1841/51/61 census returns for an inkeeper at 60 Abbey St. All the records I've gone thro show a jump from 58 to 62, It is not shown as 1 Warner St, either. There are no buildings either side of 62, No. 62 is the first one after the Black Horse on Abbey St.
Probably one of those mystries that may remain unsolved.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I wonder when 60 became part of the building. The docs surgery has a wopping 60 above the front door which is on the corner angle of warner and Abbey

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Now you've got me, I've been through that surgury door many times and have never looked for a number, next time I'm in I'll ask him if he has the deeds, and what the number was when he aquired it.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

You can see it on Google streetmaps. Garry in the hairdressers collects the groundrent.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

From what has been posted ie......
1861 census....No number 60....only 58 and number 62 occupied by Mrs Watson

1871 census...Numbers 60 and 62 together occupied by Mr Howarth

1881 census...60 is now apparently unoccupied and 62 still occupied by Mr howarth

Map of 1849 showing 60 and 62 as 2 buildings

Map of 1890/1910 showing both buildings now as one

What happenned between 1871 and 1881 when Mr Howarth lived only in 62?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I think we can say then that there was never a pub at 60/62 Abbey Street.....

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

I think this is true. However, here is another avenue of exploration which I had overlooked.....in 1909-10 the Inland Revenue conducted a national survey of commercial & house properties. It is reinforced with maps I think. It is available in the Lancashire Archives, Preston.

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Bob, are these maps from the 1840's which is the era in question?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

No - 1910,though there are maps of this period in the library. Ask what they have: [email protected]

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Been in the Docs surgery at 60 Abbey St this evening, I was looking around far more than usual for any giveaway signs, but apart from an old looking, rather ornate staircase ( ironwork with a wooden bannister that curves back on itself at the top landing) it's pretty much hidden behind panelling and woodchip.
I asked my nurse if she knew anything of the history of the building and she said straight away, no prompting " it's a protected building, used to be a pub, you can still tell from the cellar", I asked if she knew the name of the pub but she said not, although she did say that Dr Kapenda has some old documents relating to the building and she will ask him to look them out. She also said that the dividing wall between them and hairdressers next door is pretty much a partition affair. Seems like the trail isn't cold yet....:eek:

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Iv'e often thought those stairs were rather fancy as i trudge up and down them to give yet more blood. :):):)

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Hooray...maybe there is still life in this post.....the previous owner said he knew the pub name but had forgotten it....and there are some steps in the hairdressers that lead to a door into the surgery, that is now covered up with plasterboard.
Lets hope the Doc can find the documents and maybe a name or something

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Anyone any more information?

Re: 62 Abbey Street
 

Went in to see the Doc, all he knows is that it was originally part of what is now the hair dressers who collects the ground rent, which says a lot. The Doc says he does have some papers. (but doesm't seem interested in looking them up).
I can't see it ever being a pub, when you consider the number of pubs that were already in Abbey St.
Black Horse (George), Brigade, Lord Nelson, Oak Tree, Red Lion, Swan, Wellington.
Then you had a load of ale houses in the side streets of Abbey St, in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Bank St, Birtwistle St, Black Abbey St, Elephant St, Gillie St, Lee St, Oak St, Pitt St, Warner St,