The right to Life.......?
 

Do we have our values a bit cockeyed....?
A guy with Cerebral Ataxia has to go to court to establish his right to treatment.........and to fight Doctors attempts at the end of his life to starve him of nourishment and water.......and this decision is being made on a financial basis.
In effect, if your illness is terminal, the Doctors reserve the right to refuse 'treatment' because it costs £1500 per day to maintain a high dependency patient.......but Kamal Bourgass.....a terrorist,and a murderer can be kept in one of our prisons (regardless of cost) for the rest of his life.
Seems somewhat unfair to me.......What do you think....?

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

yet we wont allow those who want to die the right to die

euthinasia is less cruel than starving somone to death

murderers should be executed plain and simple so that the money saved can be spent on law abiding people who need medical help



out of curiosity i wonder how much money our govenment has wasted sticking its nose in other coutries affairs rather than protect and treat our own citizens

each year we can never find enough money to sort out the NHS yet as soon as some poxy country needs help we spend millions sending our troops to fight for them and millions spent on medicine for people in other countries

shouldnt we make sure the uk has sufficiant medical treatment and facilities before giving it away to foreighners in far away countries

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

It is a very scary thought that health care should be restricted on any basis......let alone a financial one.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

Unfortunatly, Margaret, tough decisions have to be made. Why should scarce funds be spent on artificially prolonging the life of someone when the same resources could be diverted, to say, an oncology department? The earlier cancer is caught and treated, the higher the chances of survival. Surely funding in the NHS should go to where it can do the most good?

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

Everyone has a right to life. We should be allowed to chose our time to die. I must admit I am a great believer in euthenasia when some one is terminally ill &/or suffering in agony and wants to die they should be allowed to without being made to feel like a criminal. I would hate it if my kids had to watch me die slowly just because some do-gooder says it's wrong for me to be put to sleep with my dignity in tact. I can't remember the number of times I have heard the term "you wouldn't let an animal suffer like that" when relating to someone who is dying.

But where a person who is sick wants to live they should be able to do so without being made to feel they are a drain on society. I'm sure if people were given the right to choose there would be enough in the kitty for all.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

OK Debbie. Suppose for a moment you are terminally ill. Your child is also very ill. The Doctor gives you a clinical choice - he can treat you and prolong your life for an extra few weeks, but cannot treat your child, and then your child will then become terminally ill; or he can let you go, and threat your child and your child lives.

Which do you go for?

The fact is that thousands of decisions on clinical priorities are made in the NHS every day. There is never enough money to go round to pay for this, and I as a taxpayer object to the wastage involved in maintaining life when all hope is gone. If their families wish to prolong suffering, then let them do so - but with money from their own pocket.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

I take on board what you are saying Tealeaf......but I believe it is a very short step to withdrawing treatment for other terminal illnesses......cancer being one of those.
I know all about the NHS.......having worked in it for more that 30 years.

The medical profession equate nourishment and water as 'treatment' for this guy with the cerebral ataxia.......It must be agony to die a lingering death when food and water is withdrawn. I believe that Euthanasia in situations like this, would be a kinder option......although i am not advocating euthanasia per se.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

The other point I was making was that we can fund the care of a murderer in prison......paid for by our taxes.......but cannot fund the care of a terminally ill man......something wrong there surely.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

Well, I certainly agree with you about this nonsense over terrorists in prison.

If it is your priority that the taxpayer should spend money on hopeless cases, fine. Personally, |I believe that such cases should have no more than the medication neccessary to give then a dignified and painless end. I cannot see the point of spending additional taxpayer funds when those same amounts could go into stopping people contracting fatal diseases in the first place.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

And I agree with you......a dignified end is not one where you are starved of nourishment and water. We are not talking of expensive medication in this particular case.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

Point being T. Would you say the same thing if you were in that position or would you fight for every minute that you lived

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

If I was terminally ill I would want to say my goodbyes and die sooner rather than later. I know this would not be everybodies choice but it would be mine not to suffer a lingering painful death(maybe I'm a coward) with my family having to stand by watching helplessly. What harm would I be doing. As cruel & heartless as it may sound I was glad my mum died when she did as she was not suffering anymore and my then 11 year old brother didn't have to watch it for too long. I still miss my mum dearly 20 years on but I was glad she went when she did.
But surely someone who wants to live should be allowed to after all how much does it cost to feed someone.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

I'd say bye-bye then sod off out of it.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

what without partaking in a gallon or two of holts :eek:

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

nobody with a sound mind should be starved to death ..withdrawing food and water is cruel ,that poor woman that they did that to a few weeks ago lasted for about 15 days ..i said then if they realy must be put down ,like a sick animal ,then give them a lethal injection ...oh what a horrible world we live in today ........

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

Yeah, by injection.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

I see that the god of money has raised its ugly head again.

But the real debate should be about the withdrawing of food and drink as a means of allowing someone to die. A slow, drawn out and agonising death!

In a nutshell the Hippocratic Oath reads “Do NO Harm!” It seems to me that this has been forgotten in the way it was not too long ago when a woman was starved to death and it took two weeks for her to die.

So yes Margaret Pilkington we do have our values cockeyed or at least the medical profession has. Doctors are supposed to support an ill person and maintain pain free life until the natural end not aid and abet them to die because of the cost of treatment.

If you came across someone who had taken some pills to end their life and you did nothing about it, you could be prosecuted for aiding and abetting a suicide. Any medical team that sanctions the withdrawal of food and water knowing that the end result will be a long drawn out and painful death should face the full weight of the law. At the very least it is unlawful killing although I view it as murder.

The NHS would have unlimited funds available to it if our government didn’t waste our hard earned taxes on multiple layers of bureaucracy in an attempt to isolate themselves from the population and unnecessary spending.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

The delicious Doris Karlof has some interesting things to say on this subject in this morning's Times...


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...620890,00.html

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

It's an interesting article AB, I have to admit that Doris has a point. I have said on various other threads that the NHS cannot cope with demand but I think we are going down the wrong road by denying terminally ill patients food and drink. There are valid cases for witholding treatments antibiotics, resuscitation etc but to deny food and fluids is tantamount to torture. As nurses we are taught that we must allow patients to die with dignity. I don't see that forcing someone to starve to death is very dignified. To feed and water terminally ill patients does not keep them alive but it allows them to be more comfortable.

I think that there will be many a nurse within the NHS that disobey these court orders. I know that I would.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

It does seem a very strange society we live in.

On one side we seem to have a bottomless pit of money to fund wars and to care for suspected terrorists and prisoners who would like to end the democracy they are enjoying in our country, and on the other hand medical treatment becomes a bit of a lottery.

Euthanasia is ilegal, yet as others have posted the withdrawl of food and water of a terminally ill patient that would like to continue treatment, seems more cruel.

I'm not religous, so instead of God l'll replace Him/Her with an Alien. If an Alien looked down on this planet, what on Earth [literally] would they think? We have the intelligence to cure diseases and prolong life, yet choose to use our intelligence to kill each other in silly little war games instead.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

Granny C i agree with you, if anybody did that to an animal there would have been a public outcry.
Thanks T at least you are honest.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

Lettie is right.........I think it is not right to resus anyone who has a tenous hold on life (for whatever reason).......but to deny nourishment and fluid is torture........the NHS has a duty of care.

Many years ago I saw a medical team working to resus a guy with terminal lung cancer.......now that was surely wrong, but to deny someone who is mentally sound but whose body is useless, fluids and nourishment is wrong too.

And I have to say Tealeaf, with the greatest respect, you cannot know how you would react if you were suddenly diagnosed with a terminal and life shortening condition.
May you never know!

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

I think its disgusting the money that is spent keeping terrorists/murderers in prison, lethal injection springs to mind, anyway the money could be better spent, I also hate the thought of housing immigrants (not genuine cases) when we have a lot of homeless. I dont think treatment especially food/water should be denied to anyone, though I also see the point T was making.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

You have hit the nail right on its head Margaret and aggree with you 100% the world as been screwed up totaly .

G/Day from Sheila and I

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

It's a difficult subject with right on both sides. However, when you consider what the NHS DOES fund, like gender reassignment surgery, it does seem we have our values a bit cockeyed. I think I would rather go quickly if only to spare my family the pain of seeing me suffer - having been there, I know how it feels.

Much more worrying is the potential, recently discussed, for refusing treatment on the basis of a person's age. If a condition is terminal, then there is little than can be done apart from making the person as comfortable as possible and limiting suffering. I would be willing to bet that all nurses know of cases where doses of opiates have been increased sufficiently to allow someone a painless, quick, and reasonably dignified exit. Not a bad idea, at that.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

I have certainly known of this. Opiates are increased to provide pain relief and comfort to people in the terminal stages of their illnesses which is an excruciating way to die. I have never known of food and fluids being denied to these people if they are able to tolerate them. I can understand the denial of expensive forms of nutrition such as TPN, but if a person is capable of tolerating oral food and fluids then they should be assisted to do so.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

I have known opiates be increased........but the aim has been pain relief, NOT to hasten the end of a patients life. I have even known dying patients be rehydrated using intravenous fluids.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

Well Margaret it looks like we will shortly have one less mass murderer to support as the papers today carried a story of Peter Sutcliffe "ballooning " to 17 stone and since he is a severe diabetic he is apparently "eating himself to death" Best news I've heard in ages,hope it's long,slow and very painful!l

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

This is an interesting debate.. the right to life. I would say without doubt it is THE basic human right. What amazes me is that there is a thread on this site in which people are advocating sterilization of young girls!!! .. I apologise if I have gone slighlty off the thread but I feel it is an issue.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

That was posted by me, and is what we call irony, perhaps they don't have it down in the part of London you moved to?

Anyway since then l've altered my tack on that issue, l think the p-ricks should have their drill bits removed and only allowed to have them reinserted when they can prove to be a useful and stable parent.

Re: The right to Life.......?
 

shame on you