forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Shortly after the recent bombings in London, it was announced that armed police had shot dead a man they suspected of being a member of the gang who carried out the attacks.

I, in my usual bullish way, applauded the swift decisiveness of the police action, even to the extent of continuing my support for their action after it became clear that a terrible mistake had been made and that an innocent man had been shot dead. My reasoning was that the real responsibility for this mans unecessary death was just one more to be laid at the door of Islamofacist murderers. Like most of us, I felt myself to be diminished by this man's death but, was content that the Police had acted in consideration of the greater good.

Until this morning.

What I have just read in this morning's newspaper has made me feel sick. Sick to think that an innocent man lost his life at the hands of bumbling half-wits. Sick to realise that our safety and the safety of our children, our homes, our businesses and our way of life is placed in the hands of people who appear intent on raising incompetence to the level of a minor art form.

The report below hands the terrorists a victory far greater than any they could possibly have wrested by their own meagre efforts - I have lost ALL confidence in the police.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...738517,00.html

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

OMG Acrylic what have they done if the paper is correct!!!!

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Don,t Believe All You Read The Police Do A Great Job And At The End Of The Day If He Had't Have Run He Wouldn't Be Dead

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

So as a generally law abiding person who has done nothing wrong and doesn't suspect he was being followed by gun wielding police can't run to catch a train anymore? The article says thet after investigation he didn't vault the ticket machines in fact he used his season pass and picked up a free paper on the way. He only started to run when he saw his train pulling into the station. Something I reckon thousands of Londoners do every day.Not exactly the sort of behaviour someone about to blow themselves to smithereens.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

I think it was a terrible mistake but given what had been happening in the capital was just about understandable. It's the lads family I feel sorry for.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

I always said running was bad for you.
On a serious note I am always a little suspicious about these TV/newspaper reports. I don't believe the police would shoot someone 'just for the hell of it'. I think that we might not hear the full story for a long time. I also think that we should not be told the whole truth in matters such as national security. What we know so do those that take pleasure in bombing us.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Regrettably this is without doubt an own goal for the Met which may result in the prosecution of one or more officers if the actual “independent investigation which forms correct legal practice and not the popular press” and I include those idiots at ITV News in this statement, concludes that those offices acted without regard for public safety.

These documents where linked by an individual or individuals who acted without regard for justice, the due process of law or regard for the feelings and welfare of the mans immediate family. This is sensationalised journalism at its worse. The release of these documents constitutes a fraction of the evidence that will be available to the investigation and will only muddy the water further in respect of the truth.

It was known within hours that this man was not a terrorist, it was known that many of those purporting to have witnessed events where lying or had sensationalised there stories in the heat of the moment. Not all of the descriptions of events had come from the police; TV reporters and the so called gentlemen of the press had generated a picture of events from snippets of information from unqualified sources and made incorrect assumptions as to what actually happened.

Undoubtedly mistakes where made and someone will pay. But at least recognise that an official enquiry is under way and the Independent Investigation will only report when all the evidence is collated and read before you condemn.

My respects and heart felt sympathies go out to this mans family……….

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Oh Dear. I see everyone is speculating on an ITN news investigation (an organisation not quite as biast as the BBC, but still not exactly impartial). Why don't we wait until the full details of the official enquiry are complete and placed in the public domain rather than rely on leaks and half-truths?

Anyway, as someone who rides the tube every day, I am more than happy to see the occaisional illegal firmly dealt with by the local constabulary, if it is the cost of bringing a halt to terrorist carnage.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

got to agree with a-b on this one, the statement quoted from the met in the london alert thread said the man was not a terrorist- but his clothing and behaviour increased suspision, it certainly worries me the fact that when they knew the truth,they told blatant lies. my confidence in them is at an all time low.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Mistakes were made, no question about that. However, forgive me but when the hue and cry as died away I prey that none of those who have lost their faith in the Met are on the transport system when an armed officer refuses to drew his weapon for fear of manslaughter or murder charges or when an officer fears another mistake and fails to act prior to the detonation of another terrorist device.

One point I would like to make irrespective of what this unfortunate gentleman was wearing on the day of his unfortunate death; many Middle Eastern terrorists have infiltrated Israeli buses wearing thin clothing as worn be many Arab Nationals as well as lightweight shirts or baggy ‘T’ Shirts, let alone a Denim Jacket. Yes the description of what this chap was wearing may possibly have differed greatly from the truth, but a number of decisions were taken under extreme circumstances. What would you have done in similar circumstances?

I started this post by saying mistakes were made, and there’s no doubt about that in the light of statements from the authorities themselves, however, even if this turns out to be an act of execution at the hands of one or more individuals there is no reason to dismiss the officers of the met and declare your lack of faith across the board, every tree gives succour to a bad apple, but we don’t go and cut down the tree…………………do we?

They are getting gun ho and shoot first ask questions later. When some innocent dude gets his brains used for decorating public transport then somethings wrong. If it had been a genuine threat then fair does but they need some guption occasionally.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Here we go, it just had to happen……but why as this idiot chosen this thread to take a swipe, no wonder people feel they can’t express themselves. For gods sake who ever you are gets a life because you’re just a sad reflection of about what worse on this very credible site….

Karma Deduction - 2 Points in the forget the terrorists, Tread........ 17-08-2005 19:04 womaniser and crude......

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Doug I am trying not to condone the killing of the Brazillian dude if innocent but again all the facts are as clear as mud. 7/7 shocked me along with the attempts 14 days later. What worries me is there will be innocent people caught up if the police start a chase again of failed bombers. When caught they go on about human rights dispite no regards for they innocents they could have killed. Now them yes shoot em the forfitted their human rights with what they tried.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

if he was an illegal imigrant .thats probably why he diddent stop when told to .

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

I can accept mistaken identity right up until the moment when the young chap was challenged on the train and the officer sitting next to him pinned his arms to his side. It would have been a relatively simple matter then to take him off the train and find out who he was. But to shoot an already restrained suspect eleven times from extreme close range - and miss three times - does not strike me as a reasoned and measured response. One shot to the head from close range is enough to kill or severely disable anyone. Eleven shots speaks more of unreasoning and murderous frenzy.

Think about it: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven shots! To stop one man, not two feet away?

Much has been made of the sense of heightened tension in the days following the bombings as a means of explaining or excusing this death. But surely Police Officers are trained to excercise control of their emotions, particularly so in the case of officers who are given access to firearms, or are our streets now patrolled by trigger-happy adrenalin junkies who believe that they are in some way above the law they are employed to uphold?

To shoot or not to shoot is a terrible decision to have to make and I do not envy anyone who is called upon to make it. But sadly, it is true that there are circumstances where such decisions are required. But these decisions are not made in a vacuum. The men charged with handling firearms are, supposedly, highly trained to cooly assess any given situation; not to indulge in the thrill of the chase and the consequent catharsis of the "Kill". In such highly charged situations there are rules that must be followed; rules put in place precisely to prevent the loss of innocent life. Shoot-to-kill should be an available option, but an option of last resort. Asking questions later puts each and every one of us on that tube train and places us all at equal risk from the force that is set up to protect us. To my mind, this is not an ideal recipe for a safe and civil society.

Doug and Tealeaf are quite right to point out that leaked information handed to the press must always be regarded with a degree of scepticism and must be weighed against what is already known. And they are also right to insist that we suspend judgement until all the facts are known and the report of the inquiry into the unfortunate young man's death is published.

But how many inquiries have we seen which were conducted, not to reveal the truth but, to hide it beneath a welter of legal argument and obfuscation?

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

always agreed these reports should be treated with a degree of sceptism, they did seem to be showing documentation though, and also howmany treated the offical police response after the event with skeptisism?

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I think they should be investigating how someone missed 3 times at "extreme close range" on a crowded train. Where did the 3 missing rounds end up I wonder and how close to hitting someone else.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Each round will have to be accounted for irrespective of the main event. You might recall the events of March 1988 when members of security force team removed the threat of IRA bombers on Gibraltar. Three unarmed members of an IRA Cell where shot dead at close quarters in public. The out cry across the world about British Shoot to kill Policy sent shook waves throughout the establishment……..Members of the security force team were threatened with prosecution, the fact that large amounts of explosives had been placed by the IRA cell and that there were fears of a radio or remote trigger being carried by them did not in many eyes constitute a reason to execute the terrorist in the manner in which they died. We are unfortunately back to the “what If” scenario.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

A-B get your rucksack on and have a trip to london?its easy us lard arses sat here doing jack ****. but when it comes to the crunch are boys are in the front line doing what they can?

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

total waste of material he needs glassess, what are the tax payers paying for?shoot the lot.

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I agree, comment is easy. But I wonder if they would still be "our Boys" if the victim was related?

Shoot-to-Kill, as a policy of defense, is all very well but those responsible for implementing it have a duty to get it right first time and every time! The idea that SO19, which costs the country millions in in training and resources, are just bumbling along "doing what they can" in the vague hope that they might make the right call is horrifying.

It gets worse when those responsible try to lie, decieve, delay and cover-up what they have done. One might expect such behaviour in a Banana Republic, but not in England, surely? Or am I deluding myself?

I lived in London for six years during the height of the IRA boming campaign, I do have some idea of what the situation is like.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

I'm glad at least A-b regrets some of our more bullish comments in regard to the original thread on this shooting, which with hindsight seems quite sick.

From a purely selfish point of view, do the more 'gung ho' members wish the police hadn't made a mistake, partly because of the vast amount of money these enquiries are going to cost us?

Nice to know from Tealeaf that the armed police are travelling on the tubes to check for 'illegals'. Do make sure you have your ticket before travelling, as sometimes if the machines are down at a station they still let you pay at your destination.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Hey Garinda...let me know next time you're in London and what your travel plans are...I have a few friends with the Met & I'm sure a nice little surprise can be arranged for you on the Underground.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

I always have a valid ticket in my little mit, so your friends would be wrong to shoot me.

I bet my friends in MI5 are bigger than your friends, so nah nah nah na!

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i also can accept mistaken identity, what i find difficult to accept is the officers on the front line getting stick because the HEAD of the met did not come clean immediatly they knew a mistake had been made,surely if he had told the facts of the error tragic though it was it would be painful but far more acceptable.

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and also didn't try to delay the enquiry. Smells rotten..........

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Rumour has it the CPS is avin a swatch at this, but answer will be no case to answer.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

Seems to me that the police are just trying to cover up there mistakes. if it was us making them do you think we would get away with it. I think not. Neither should the police.

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

This really is getting beyond a joke.We now read that the Brazilian police are sending people over to investigate the Met! This really is pathetic. I just hope the immigration authorities turn back this bunch of criminals at Heathrow.

Here's some further reading:

http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dpla...azil/index.htm

Re: forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!
 

No, this is definitely wrong, because Tealeaf has told us how many shots were actually fired in the other thread, and he is always right.;)