Euthanasia.
 

Should we have the right to end our own lives under a legal controlled environment?

When our pets are sick we don't keep treating them until they die when they are terminally ill. We take what we call a humane decision to end it's suffering, and end their life with an injection. Why can't people be afforded the same choice?


There have been lots of cases were people have taken the informed choice to carry out their wishes to end their lives in what they see as an intolerable situation, but it is still illegal. Even to aid a suicide is illegal and can and has resulted in imprisonment.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I think it should be allowed - if I was terminally ill with no chance of a cure, I would like the decision to be able to end it.

It's less messy than jumping off Beachy Head, anyway

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Oh, this is such a difficult thread. I don't think that anyone should ever be prosecuted for helping a family member to end their own life.....as long as there is definite proof that this is what the terminally ill person really wanted to do. Now, how that could be safely legislated for, I don't know.
My one concern is that grasping relatives do not conveniently end the life of a family member and then benefit financially from the deceased's estate.

The recent case of a Doctor being struck off the register for helping a terminally ill friend to die was most unfortunate. It appears that they had a pact that the doctor would help his friend once his friend had got to the end of his tether with the pain. Striking this man off the medical register served no useful purpose because the man had been retired for something like 15 years.

I think there should be some kind of framework drawn up to help the terminally ill.....but I'm glad I won't be the one deciding how it will work.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Vorlon.....I couldn't do the Beachy Head thing......it is scary. I think you must really have to be desperate to jump off Beachy Head. I went there last November and couldn't bear to look over the edge.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Re: Euthanasia.
 

oh this is hard,,,i wouldent want to be a vegitable,but i wouldent want to put the onus on someone else to end my life,,
and what if someone got fed up of a family member being ill .they might just bump them off to be free of commitment..........oh i think i am on the fence on this one..

Re: Euthanasia.
 

It could be done legally as it is in the Netherlands now. I'm not suggesting that we all cart off great aunt Doris to the vets so we can spend our inhertitance, but we should have the informed choice about when the quality of life is deemed unacceptable, just as we do for animal's lives now.

I do approach this subject from a slightly different perspective, having an incurrable degenerative disease, ableit one that isn't going to kill me. I'm not being defeatist, as I'm hoping there will be a cure before long, if there isn't, and rather than being able to live dependently, I would certainly like the option when to end my life legally rather than live with. in my opinion, a poor quality of life.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Garinda, there is an organisation in Switzerland that helps non Swiss nationals to do this......it is called Dignitas.

I think 'Living wills' go some way to address this problem.....except they don't allow active intervention to end life. Say you were in a Vegetative State.....or were terminally ill without any hope of a cure.....you could document that you didn't want to be resuscitated, or you didn't want active treatment, but you couldn't ask for your death to be facilitated.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

my hubby also has got a degenerate desease ,but he battles on,somedays he is much worse than others,, it gets him down to think there are a lot of things he cant do now,and he hates being dependant on other people ,,but to me its no big deal. i married him in sickness and in health ,and i am sure he would do the same for me.we have some wonderful memouries of when we were both fit and healthy...
i just say live for today coz you dont know what is round the corner.....

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I'm not in favour of enforced euthanasia, that would be a very dangerous road to go down, just that I think people should be given a choice.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

When my Father was dying of very advanced cancer a few years ago, I personally at NO stage felt like letting go of my dad, but that was selfish thinking on my part, I feel that my dad would have taken the option of euthanasia if it was available about 2wks before his "Natural ???" death, During that last time period he was in real pain, he had a pump attached to him to administer morthine(?) and also patches of morthine(?) to apply to the skin. He got to the stage that he did not want any of us to go into the room with him, because he could see the pain it caused us to see him like that. And lets face it at that stage we all, including my dad, where waiting for his death.

So I think that under such circumstances it would be kind to all concerned to say goodbye with dignity.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

It could be like it is now for donor cards. You could make an informed decision whilst you are well, with the option of changing your mind later if you did want to continue wuth treatment.

I think it's disgraceful that people have been imprisoned for carrrying out the wishes of their loved ones to help them end their lives with dignity.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Yes I think you should be able to say when you have had enough.

It's hard to watch someone suffer, and like you said Rindy, you wouldn't put a animal through it.

I work with very poorly people, that say they have had their years anyway, but medical intervention like peg feeds etc........are keeping them alive.

I look after a lady with motor neurons disease, and she has made a living will, that states if she is unable to eat and drink, then under no circumstances does she wish for a peg feed to be fitted. She is well capable at the moment to make this decision, and may I add a very level headed lady. I'm sure if I was the same, I would opt out of being kept alive for the rest of my days, led in bed strapped to a peg feed, with no hope of life getting any better.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

oh what a hard choice,,, i think it must be awfal to be of sound mind in a body that is useless........i can see both points of view now ,,,,,,,,,

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I think you should be allowed to terminate your life if eg terminal illness BUT the problem is legislating it & clear legal boundaries problem be it where possible inheritance abuse could manifest bigtime.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I to am in favour of living wills that would include a decision to be 'put to sleep' if I was unable to communicate or live a life where I wasn't aware of my surroundings. It would drive me crazy to have a working mind and no way of expressing my thoughts. I guess the above only really covers sudden events such as an accident or medical emergency. It must be harder for those already diagnosed with some condition to make an balanced judgement but I feel they should be allowed to do so.

I also think that in the latter stages of life (by which I mean that last day when we all know the end is coming) we should be able to make an informed choice to end someones suffering. When my dad died it was quick and relatively painless. His heart stopped twice and was got going again but we were told it wouldn't last long. It was long enough to say our goodbyes and I will always be grateful to the medical staff for those 20 minutes. I (and I believe he too)would have hated sitting there waiting for hours for him to pass on, never knowing if that was his last breath.

Ian

Re: Euthanasia.
 

My grandad was like that & lying in hospice knowing he was going anyway but had to await the cancer to seal it first bless him he given up smoking & drink when he was diagnosed but while in his last day or so he sodded it & had some beers & his favourite pipe with his family around him & passed away shortly after, i think he felt better for doing it.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I think when a diagnosis of terminal illness is made, the patient and the relatives should be consulted as to what stage of the illness intervention should be continued.

I too, watched my father die of Lung cancer.....he never asked about his illness.....he was not told he was dying, but he knew he was. It was very hard for him to handle, and he withdrew from life and all that should make life worth living. He suffered physically, only in the last 48 hours......but from diagnosis to death he mentally was crucified. There is NO treatment for this sort of mental pain......physical pain can be helped by Morphine...... but mental pain is torture......for both the patient and the relatives. To have talked to him about death would have hurt him even more. I am 13 years on from this event and still I find it difficult to deal with. Doctors and Nurses do their best in these circumstances, but there is no easy answer. I don't think my father would have opted to die......I think he feared death. And I could not have made that decision to end his life.....but having said that I was glad when he did die. Even though I know that this was the only outcome, and he was relieved of the effort of breathing......I feel guilty about it.
I have also watched other people die like that, and it is heartbreaking to watch.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I believe in Euthanasia in principal, but also agree with some of the comments on here, that the legislation may be difficult to ensure people are not getting bumped off for their money. Probably the best way would be, for only a doctor to have the right to offer Euthanasia to the person concerned, or to the relatives, if the person was too far gone to know what was happening. At least this way, it would ensure someone with no axe to grind was making the original decision to offer the facility.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

There are so many pros and cons to this that it is a decission that would be hard for anyone to take. Personally it would be a case of weighing up what is the chance of they person being stable enough to make the dicission themselves for I could not do it without the regret. Some people could and some couldnt but sometimes the patient knows there is no hope and gives up leading to a slow demise. This is not for the faint of heart and legislation could never cover it all, and yet people would rather go with dignity than watch their friends and family suffer because they are suffering. I think if the patient is of sound mind the dicission is theirs and theirs and theirs alone. If the are not then it comes down to the profesional opinion of the medical staff.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Euthanasia is such a hard subject to tackle and find answers too. In an idel world there would be no pain and suffering and death would come to us all peacefully as we sleep but it's not an ideal world is it.

People of sound mind being able to make their own informed choice of when to die I totally, unreservedly agree with. I have always said if I was diagnosed with a debilatating illnes or the dreaded cancer, when it got too much i would honestly do the job of ending my own life whilst I was still able. Yes I fear death but not as much as I fear the suffering many people have to endure.

The problems arise when other people have to make the choice of when somebodies 'time was up'? Families find it hard to make the devastating decision to turn a persons life support machines off when the person is already pronounced clinically dead. Could you imagine having to bring about the death of a family member? If it was a family decision what would happen if one family member didn't agree?

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I've told my husband that if I ever got to a stage where I was being kept alive by machines or had a disease like alzheimers to 'pull the plug'. I don't want to be spoon fed or have my children having to take me to the potty etc.

Thing is though, that if it was the other way round I'm not sure I could do it.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

A great many of us have expressed our opinions on this subject in several threads over the past year or so. But it is a subject that concerns us all intimately because, sooner or later, we will all have to face the prospect of dying, whether we like it or not.

Shuttling back and forth between Fleetwood and Blackpool, via Cleveleys, I get the chance to pass quite a number of retirement homes. Some of the sights I have seen leave me wondering what is the point of prolonging a life to the last possible syllable. For me, life only has value if you do something with it. Spending one's days sat in the same chair in a puddle of one's own effluent and too frail to move is not living. The Welfare State may have been instrumental in improving lifespan in the UK, but it has proved to be singularly useless in helping us to figure out what we should do with all the extra years we have been sentenced to.

Surely a society as sophisticated as ours can come up with a means whereby a dignified end can be arranged for those who feel that life has become a burden too heavy to be bourne?
Speaking personally, I would hate to end up in a retirement home. Were the prospect ever to arise I think I would develop a sudden case of insomnia and save up the sleeping tablets before I would agree to go into one.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

i see suicide and euthanasia as two seperate things where as suicide i see as ending a perfectly healthy life where their is hope and euthanasia as to end a life where there is no hope

i would never promote suicide but as for euthanasia i think you should be allowed to end your own life if you choose to regardless of what anyone else thinks its your life and if you dont want to suffer then you shouldnt have to regardless of what religeion says about suicide and going to hell it should be up to the individual

rather than rot in a hospital bed with terminal cancer for example i would live my life as best i could until i could bare it no more and hope i had the strenghth left to do myself in when the time came , you may not agree with it but its my life and that is all that should matter

most of the people who harp on about how bad euthanasia is either dont have terminaly ill friends or family or have never been in a situation where their life was in tha balance , believe me when you get diagnosed with a serious disease you will consider things like what if its terminal how painfull will my death be etc no matter who you are and if after all the treatments the NHS has to offer fail then you should be able to end your missery before you die an agonising and in some cases an undignified death

i have seen a family member die with terminal cancer and i have seen people on the hospital wards with terminal cancer and my choice in their position would to be dead before things got that bad

i also think that those who choose to suffer should be able to do so but for those who want to skip the messy ending there should be laws to allow them to do so

sorry to anyone here who may have family or friends with cancer for using cancer as an example but cancer is a big part of my familys lives and my own personal life , i was lucky enough to not be terminaly ill but if i had been i would have liked to have had an option to bail out before the end

ok thats my 2 cents :D

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I have seen what prolonging life does to some especially if it is and old person. They want to die with dignity but the doctors have to drag it out. I would rather have a dignified exit than one i hated and made others suffer because of what was happening.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I too think its a choice you should be able to make, if in sound mind, I also would not like to be kept alive if I was in a vegetive state. I can understand to a degree why its illegal, but if guidlines were in place so the decision couldn't be abused, then I would be happy for it to become legal.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Could we trust the govenment at the time to come up with a solid workable solution because if its like its been with them so far i doubt it too much backtracking.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Probably not Spuggie, they couldn't organise a party in a brewery!

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Like I earlier Parkinson's Disease isn't going to kill me, however I've met people who were diagnosed at the same age as me, who ten years down the line, can't walk, can't talk and shake excessively. If I get that bad before a cure is found, I would like to say I would prefer to be dead, although I would never suggest that other people should follow the same course of action.

I want a legal option. It's all very well for people to say this, like Gayle discussing it with her husband, but as the law stands, if your loved one is unable to take their own life, even after giving clear instruction when they were well, what to do in this situation, the person assisting their loved one to end their life is acting illegally. People are prosecuted and even imprisoned every year for doing what their loved one asked them to do, because they were to ill to carry out their own wishes.

The law needs changing.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

This thread bring me back to the dot & ethel story on eastenders - i know a soap opera but they tried to convey awarness that this happens more than you think or at least the fight for it is there.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

awwww that was totally brilliant tv, dot and ethel,almost had me in tears.It's easier the gabrielle kent way.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Ah, that was one of the best Eastenders ever.
I was so moved.
I cried buckets.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

i think we need to sort out the youth in this country, what with these 'hoodies' and 'happy slapping' and what not, before we start worrying about the youth in asia.


this would have never happened under mrs thatcher

Re: Euthanasia.
 

There's always one.

You hand them something on a plate and they always take it. It's spelt yoof by the way.;)

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I believe that Simon’s response to this post says as much as can be said in this very difficult subject.

Anyone one who as had to endure watching a loved one pass away in pain and discomfort will understand how easy it is to be torn apart by wanting to keep them with us and praying to our chosen God to end their suffering.

I believe no one individual as the right to end life in this manner; nor should anyone have this heavy burden of responsibility placed on their shoulders by another. However, that’s not to say that one can’t assist in providing an appropriate method that would allow the sufferer to bring about there own end. It is difficult for me to understand why in this day and technological age that anyone should end their days in pain and discomfort as the means and methods of pain control are so advanced today and readily available.

I spent over eight years working as an Auxiliary Nurse in a Geriatric Hospital “an often miss used term that has now past into disuse” Much of that time was spent working the night shift which would include sitting with those who were about to pass to spirit. Our role was to provide the comfort and dignity that ensured that no one faced their death alone, particularly if the family themselves could not be there. Pain control for those in pain and distress was paramount and the management of pain control was never allowed to slip.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

In all seriousness I wrote an article on the subject for a piece of coursework about a year ago so it is an issue I am familiar with.

My view is that I believe the current legal position should remain.
Firstly, as some have mentioned, from a legislative point of view, it is something that is impossible to 'police' 100 per cent effectively and would therefore be open to abuse.

There have been numerous cases of people who are supposedly clinically 'dead' awakening from comas after years to go on and live a good standard of life. Just one such case should be enough to knock the argument on the head. You cannot 'play God' with an issue as precious as the human life. Quite simply there is no going back. Likewise degenerative diseases. How can a person KNOW for sure how they will feel WHEN they do reach a certain stage of an illness?? Clearly such decisions would have to be made at a relatively early stage BUT how can one say for sure that they wouldn't want to reverse that decision down the line?? What then??

Also, who would be responsible for actually performing these 'mercy' killings?? It would HAVE to be the doctors wouldn't it. Should a doctor have such a responsibility though?? Would they WANT such a burden?? After all it goes against the hippocratic oath.

IMO the law is something that supposedly provides a certainty by which you can arrange your affairs. An issue like this is impossible to bring that level of certainty to though.

You simply cannot go around making ad hoc decisions on something as precious as the human life, its a non starter for me.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Most people have had close encounters with death, anyone one whose read my blog will have read of the slow death of my Aunt aged fifty seven over the last few months. She chose to fight right until the day she died, when we were told her illness was terminal.

I believe quality of life also should be addressed as well as terminal illness. If my quality of life becomes so unbearable, and dependent on others to perform even the most mundane of tasks, I'm out of here, and if I don't have the ability I demand the right to seek assistance without the threat of prosecution hanging over that person.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

It's not impossible, it works perfectly well in the Netherlands and Switzerland.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Thats the trouble though Gazza, you cant DEMAND that.

You have to look at the bigger picture and accept the reality of the situation. If just one life is wrongly taken because of such a law then it cant be right.

Until someone can come up with an absolutely 100 per cent foolproof piece of legislation, which is not going to happen because it is impossible, then I really dont think we can entertain the idea.

Once we start playing God where does it end??

I sympathise whole heartedly with people who have had personally harrowing experiences of loved ones facing a slow and painful end BUT I think you MUST rise above your personal experience and see the bigger picture.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Gazza?

How very dare you?:)

As an atheist I don't want to play God as I don't believe one. In other threads I've stated my oposition to the death penalty for exactly the same reasons your giving me, ie: that an innocent person might be wrongly killed. No law is one hundred percent workable, but like I said it works perfectly well in other countries.

I do demand a change in the law, otherwise by the time comes I'm unable to wipe my own ass, I'll be moving to Amsterdam.:)

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I have every respect for those people who choose to receive care right until their death by whatever takes them, and for those people who care for them, that still doesn't address the issue of assisted suicide still being illegal.

If the law isn't changed I will be petitioning for a change in the law so we have the same rights as pets, and that they are made to suffer as well, and not put out of their suffering.;)

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Our pet’s are driven by natural instinct and will fight to survive in any environment, they only lay down and die when they don’t have the strength to fight on……To relieve their suffering and ease our consciences we have them put down. I believe its kind and right only because they can’t end their own suffering. Why should the burden be put on another’s shoulders? If any individual wants to end their own lives then they must do so by their own hand. I think it’s wrong to live to the point where it becomes someone else’s responsibility to help you end your life.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Don't patonise me Doug [although it's great to have you back posting,] it's my life and I don't really care if it's meaningful important to you, it wouldn't be to me. Choices.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Choices……..That I respect.

Patronising? I was speaking in the broader sense that all life is important and precious, not specifically yours but everyone’s. However, I would consider it selfish to expect someone else to help one take a life because an individual didn’t want to continue. The Choice and right for an individual to take there’s own life is there’s and there’s alone. Thank you for your kind comments, I have missed people, but I won’t be staying to long.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Gary my friend, Can I offer the needed assistance ;) Better pm me so I dont get caught.........I am free after the footy tonight :)

Let me know

Re: Euthanasia.
 

That's you all over, give, give, give.;)

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I'm sorry you seem to have taken offence at me calling you patronising and won't be staying long, that's your choice. However you made it it personal when you said my life would still be meaningful and important to you if I couldn't perform the most basic of tasks. True babies can't wipe their own bums, but the difference is they will be able to be taught how to do so as they develop. I will not be sitting in a wheel chair unable to speak and perform simple tasks by the time I'm fifty, trust me. The quality of my life is more important to me than the length of it, as an atheist I'm not confused on the issue that I might be playing God.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

My use of terminology was unfortunate, I believe all life is a gift therefore even your life is meaningful and important although I was making the statement in broader terms and was not making a personal statement, but believe what you will.

Offended? Not in the least and there’s no connection whatsoever between that statement and me not staying. I was thanking you for your expression of kindness in respect of my return to posting on the site. However, I was also making the statement that I won’t be staying long on the site long has I have many other things to do.

I find it sad that you are an atheist, but like you say that’s your choice and I respect that. I have quite pagan views myself but I do closely relate my beliefs to spiritualism in that we have seen the life we are to live on earth before we are born and choose to continue with it irrespective of how it ends. However, free will will always play its part in that outcome. I also believe in the survival of the spirit after death. Keep that in mind and don’t be too shocked when you wake up on the other side.

To under line the point I was trying to make is that yes, it is your choice to end your life early if that’s what you want. What you don’t have is the right to expect someone else to help you do it, are worst still in my view, expect them to carry the burden of the ultimate responsibility for ending you life.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

What time does the match end Simon.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

It's not just me, other people have also posted in this thread that they would expect people they love to help them carry out their wishes, rather than live in a vegative state.


Sadly I can't say to you that I will be there after your death to say I told you so.;)

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I also respect their views and wishes; however, I struggle with the fact that people expect someone else to do it for them once they have past the Rubicon so to speak. I don’t have a problem with them ending their lives, It’s the fact that people expect others to end it for them rather than acting as their own agent and doing themselves in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda Sadly I can't say to you that I will be there after your death to say I told you so.;)

The spirit world is a big place Gary, please don’t wait……………….:p

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Anything is possible rindy. How many Ackers have you got?

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Well I have no problem with the morality of it all. My family have all ready discussed it, and rather than see someone I love live in agony, I will give them the help to carry out their wishes.

Intrestingly it's always thought that Goerge V was given an assisted suicide.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Whilst I am torn, like most of you on this subject on the side of suffering. I tend to agree more with Staveros. Although Staveros, Doctors play God everyday in many guises.

You could argue that, as well as ending ones suffering, keeping people alive is also Playing God.
They may have taken the Hiprocratic Oath to swear to 'preserve life' but thats a legal stance rather than a moral one.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Well since I'm now to afraid to post in case people can't stand free debate, and think that argument is a personal attack, and pm the mods to close threads, I think I'll butt out of posting for a while.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Dont do that G because then that shows they have won and silenced you. They should stop posting if they dont like honest replies and a fair arguement what you say is important.
:)

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Euthanasia is always an emotive issue, which has been discussed, not only by the medical and nursing professions, but also by the legal profession and government departments. Many of these debates took place in the late 80's when I was RGN training.

The general consensus was that it would be impossible to legislate, families may want to bump off elderly relatives for money or convenience and it would add to the stress of a terminally ill person coming into hospital, for fear that they may be euthanised against their wishes when their disease became end stage. There were many mixed opinions at the time, pretty much the same as this site.

My own opinion is that if it could be legalised, I would support it. Not only have I held many a dying person's hand and comforted relatives, but my Nan went through a painful death which lasted a few days. I do not consider Simon to be at all selfish for wanting to hang on to his father, I would have given anything to have a bit of extra quality time with my Nan, but it was never going to be that way, and I hated to see her suffer....

We have to remember that when a terminally ill person makes a decision to have their life ended, the decision is borne of desperation and pain. To make that decision, the person knows that they have no hope and no quality.

Consider this......... When we lose a relative or friend (as so many of us have done). We would like to have extra time with them, we miss them like mad and we go through a process of grief which can last a lifetime, but we only lose one person. A dying person loses everyone they ever knew, all of their family and friends, neighbours, pets, posessions..... In other words they lose everything, all in one go........

When you make a decision to lose everyone you've ever loved, that decision is not made lightly.......... Should we not be supportive of that?????

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Well said Lettie. You summed it up perfectly. I too lost my Nanna a short while ago and the last few days were awful - for her and for the family.

The main problem that I see with this is that when a person gets to the stage where they would probably want to go, they are also probably too ill to get that message across. At that point it becomes someone elses decision and that someone would effectively have to end the sick persons life.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Doug, glad to have you back and posting. I too have looked after dying patients, and while Nurses may strive to preserve the dignity of patients......and many believe they do actually do this.....if you question patients about whether they felt their dignity was preserved.....many of them will tell you they didn't feel this was their perspective. That is because dignity is such a SUBJECTIVE thing......because I feel a certain thing will preserve MY dignity, I mustn't fall into the trap of believing that my patient will want the same things.

And you are right Doug when you say that there is some excellent work going on in palliative care, but that it is patchy(in both quantity and quality), that is because the nursing profession do not share good practices very easily. Just before I left the Nursing profession I was involved in Benchmarking..... this was a system where nurses nationwide looked at professional practices and drew up Best Practice guidelines.....some of the issues that were thrown up opened my eyes......I don't know how far the work has got, but it was powerful stuff.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Thank you Margaret, it’s nice to see everyone still at it. Gary, don’t turn your back on those who seek only to join in this debate and express their own opinions. The Mod’s are employed to adjudicate and they will act in all fairness if as you indicate a personal attack has taken place. Your argument is valid and widely supported in my view. We all see it the rights and wrongs of this discussion and respond to those areas that affects our own feeling and values. I am not personally against you; I just have a different point of view. I think what is clearly demonstrated is as Lettie say’s, the subject matter is very emotive……..

Margaret, Your comments in respect of maintaining dignity and the clients/patients perspective on the subject is very true; unfortunately this all too often is a contentious issue in its own right because of the different perspectives on the nature of care and the views of those that deliver that care. In respect of Benchmarking, this continues to be a work in progress, it continues to be fragmented and uncoordinated in some respects, quite often one body will publish findings only to be found lacking by another and then the whole issue will be thrown into a quandary by the government, usually on the grounds of cost. But much good work is being done both in the health and Social care fields and jointly between the two. When we do start to listen more, then and only then will we really move forward.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I know what you are saying Doug, I was instrumental in the teaching of the concept of benchmarking......well, there were 8 of us for BHRV NHS Trust, but we had regular meetings and the North west co-ordinator took the findings of our work forward to the National forum.

We looked at different aspects of care and each ward and department had representatives.......the Benchmarks were completed and we then fed back to our own co-ordinators......good practices were identified and put into place across the trust. Not all improvements had big costs attached to them......some of the improvements were attitudinal.....we just got people to think in different ways about what they were doing.....and not to always do things in a certain way 'because it had always been done like that'......I had great hopes of the process......and I have wondered how things have progressed since I retired.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Sorry, that was a bit of a thread wander there, my only defence is that it is, I suppose, loosely part of the discussion.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

There seem to be a number of contradictions of logic in some of the arguments put forward so far.

Doug reckons that it is compassionate to put our pets out of their pain and misery because they cannot do it for themselves, but then goes on to say that doing the same thing for a relative who might not be able to help themselves is morally and ethically wrong.

He also argues that all life is a precious gift, which it is, but what value is that gift to the person who is clinically brain-dead and is only kept alive through the actions of Hospital staff and the products of technology? How valuable is that life when the body upon which it is bestowed is no longer aware of it and can make no further use of it?

We are all arguing from a standpoint that bears little resemblance to actuality. Euthanasia may be a criminal offence in this country, but that does not mean that it is not employed in homes and hospitals throughout the country every day of the week by the very same doctors and nurses who publicly claim that they never do and never would! There are even euphemistic phrases employed by the medical profession to describe it. I cannot remember the exact acronym that is appended to a patients notes, something like "NR", which means in effect "take no action to resuscitate this patient". I am sure that Margaret or Lettie would be able to tell us what it is exactly. But that is a form of Assisted Dying; an infraction of the law, whether by commission or, as in this case, omission is still an infraction. And what of the use of increasing amounts of morphine to suppress respiration? Or the over use of powerful anti-coagulent drugs like Heperin? I have seen both used, from the finest of motives; that of bringing death a little quicker and alleviating suffering.

And if you want to bring God into the argument, the Bible tells us that we are each alotted three score years and ten, which would seem to imply that anyone over the age of seventy three shouldn't be alive anyway! The Commandments, quite rightly tell us that it is wrong to kill, but they say nothing about helping someone to die. They do however make rather a big deal about love, respect and being obedient to the will of our elders.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

A-B, the Acronym you were searching for is DNR.....Do not resuscitate. I worked mainly on the Gynae Ward (women's bits) and although I have nursed very many terminally ill women, it was very difficult to get Consultants to append notes with the DNR.....however, there is a maxim, cliche.....whatever you want to call it, and it goes like this.....'Thou Shalt not kill, but need not strive officiously to keep alive'........but in practice, I can't say that I have seen it used.

The ladies that I nursed were kept as comfortable as we could make them..... that is not to say that death was either peaceful, or painless.....in a great many cases it was neither, and I can't tell you how impotent, as a nurse, it makes you feel. In many cases the ladies were well known to us and had been in and out of hospital many times. I don't care what anyone says, you cannot divorce your feelings.....and personally I wouldn't have wanted to because when you have empathy for the patient it doesn't disable you.....it makes you give care with love......and that is all that I could say about the subject......the ladies who died in my care were cared for with love..... and their dying always made me feel sad and a little diminished by their loss.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Contradiction or interpretation?

I would argue that it’s ok for an individual to commit suicide if that’s what they desire rather than undergo the pain, distress or torment of facing a life of uncertainty. I say uncertainty because I am aware of a number of clients who have lived that life and have accepted and adapted to the conditions around them, I am also more than aware of a number of others who have not. What I have tried to say is that I don’t believe that the burden of responsibility shouldn’t be placed on another individual. If two parties agree then it a private matter, but who wins the argument If the sufferer imposes there will on a relative or friend who does not want to assist in the taking of a love ones life, I think that is morally and ethically wrong.

If on the other hand the individual wants to commit suicide that’s a private matter, great hurt will still be suffered by those left behind, but they won’t have the burden of taking part in what is effectively manslaughter at the least and murder at the extreme in the eyes of common law. Evan if it is made legal would an individual suffer guilt and remorse for the rest of there life as a result of participating in the act of assisting someone else to die.

No one individual can argue every individual merit of what is and is not right in an issue of this nature, all one can do is state our opinion and hope that we don’t cause undue distress to other by doing so. I think your wrong in your appraisal of my argument but that is you right and you are not hurting anyone by exercising that right.

The later part of your argument is valid of that I have little doubt, but people should exercise due care before recounting any experiences or knowledge of such practices.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

I've decided I will be posting again after all, I will not be censored, they'll have to ban me first.


Interestingly I decided to read through the thread starters posts of the person that complained they were being victimised and that I saw as debate.

The said person has already posted about animal experimentation, but more interestingly the mod they complained to also went to his wedding in 1985, and got the thread closed.

Nothing like free speech is there?

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Nice to have you back G. Nothing better than a bit of research is there so I take it you will not be asking to be put out of your misery in a hurry. Cannot do that to a member it would be unethical, besides which where would the debate come from if you had "died" in full flow?

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Thanks Spug. It does make you wary of starting, or posting in threads which could be seen as contentious or dealing with morality, especially when people who can't stand debate go bleating off to one of their friends the moderators to get the thread closed.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

Its more akin to tip toeing on a razor blade at the moment. There will always be contentious issues that are discussed and like the one here a big moral one. If there is no discussion or views expressed the piont of this is defunct. To judge anything with only minimal facts is wrong and the communitys input is essential as with "euthanasia" as has been shown on this thread. People may be for against or undecided yet there are people from the medical proffesion that have posted along with those with first hand experiance of the trauma involved as well as the pain and grief it causes. To me athread like this is needed as was the "other" for we all learn and can learn to tolarate the views of others regardless of how strong our feelings are.

Re: Euthanasia.
 

After watching my dad die from cancer when I was 18 i totally agreed with euthanasia and wanted something in law that if it happened to me then i had the choice to get someone to help me die.

But something changed my mind.

My mum was ill a few years ago and was took to burnley general and she was really ill. We got a phone call for us all to go over and they said that she was dying and they didnt expect her to last the night. They told us that she had asked not to be resucitated etc it was on her notes we didnt know anything about it she'd never said anything to us about it and it was totally unexpected. That weekend we lived in the hospital (it was the year of the burnley riots) taking it in shifts between us and by sunday she pulled through and she was got better. It happened again last christmas I was told xmas eve that she was dying and the doc said that she werent expecting her to be alive to see new year in. Christmas morning she got up at 8am and was expecting me downstairs to open my xmas pressies.

If euthanasia laws had been in, after seeing my dad die like what he did, i wouldnt have gone through that again and i very much doubt my mum would still be alive now. I probably would have used them.

That is why I changed my mind - twice my mum has got better from being at deaths door and why i think now that its better to leave well alone.