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What would this cost us
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An article taken from the Mail on Sunday, if it were to happen what would the cost be to council tax payers
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Lunacy and expensive lunacy at that!
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Aye, in 74 all the blackburn schools etc. were handed over to Lancashire control, when blackburn with darwen was formed they along with a lot of other buildings were handed back, even the offices I worked in.
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What sits in between the ears of these people a vacumn? It was a pain in the rear when they did this up here and the populus is still paying the price. Lay odds that it will come back and bite them where it hurts the most ie with the voters. Again they have no regard for anything or anyone.
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If it ain't broke why try to fix it?????????????
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They have nothing better to do and love messing. They are becoming like nusery kids.:(
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In fact, I'm considering moving house, just so I could vote for you! Couldn't even tell you who (prospective or current) councilor is for my ward! Best of luck, wish every member of Accyweb could support you. |
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This one is even bigger than Accrington in to Hyndburn, this has already been tabled, not long ago our leader PB was fighting off the challenge of Blackburn with Darwen, saying we would be better off joining with the Ribble Valley, but it's reared it's head again it would seem according to this article. It was only the referendum in the North East that put it on the back burner, the ODPM still thinks "we" would be better off with regional gov. as in Scotland and Wales.
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In some respects regional govenment works in Scotland but in others is a pain in the arther. Living in Scotland has shown me that when reginol govenment goes wrong it goes with a very large bang. Centralising everything does not lead to efficiency or effect action to issues. The power they have has gone to their heads to the point they think they are untouchable.
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It will be frighteningly expensive and quite unnecessary. It will be an assault on the individual identity of shire people and the rape of our national heritage. We are been wiped off the face of Britain by these idiots. No wonder others feel encouraged to move in and take over.
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Hows this for a map of "old lancashire"
http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/map...ishes-map.html Where is it now |
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This is a hard debate to have because a lot of people have already made their mind up and the debate will be one sided.
I am TOTALLY in favour of doing away with LCC and two tier councils. Many obvious reasons. HBC is so far in debt and now so diminished it struggles to offer value for money. All the well paid local governemtn jobs are far away at Preston at LCC. With an East Lancs authority there is a fair chance of it being located in/near Hyndburn. JOBS JOBS JOBS. We need a university and not one at Preston, one here. We need the Ribble Valley to encourage tourism. It costs more to run twice the services needed, 2 payroll, 2 corporate services, 2 engineering etc... 85% of Council Tax gets spent at County Hall PRESTON. We should decide more locally what our priorities are. IF the unitary is the same area as Health and Police, we may also be able to join up more ALL services effectively. And finally take donw some of the parochial signs that say exiting Lancashire, entering Blackburn, reentering Lancashire, welcome to Hyndburn. FINALLY we will be able to establish true local democracy for the likes of Rishton and Gt Harwood. FINALLY FINALLY, we will have LESS councillors on the payroll. |
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If there were guarantees that my council tax would not increase because of the change, and that services would improve, then I may say yes, but that would not be the case. Empire building is a term that springs to mind. |
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You forgot the possible pocket lining bit as the councilors of a new set up would want a nice fat payrise.
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another expensive mistake... |
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I don't agree with a two-tier system of Council. For one thing it allows a 'blame' culture - you get councils saying 'you can't blame us for the roads/libraries/etc, it belongs to County' and vice versa on other issues. So no one knows who controls what and some things get done twice or fall through gaps.
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Dont want to think of that thanks the amount of wasted dosnt bear thinging about.
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this threads getting very interesting:D who said accyweb had gone a bit quiet? pmsl
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You wanted to stir it up a bit. ;)
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Well one can never tell besides it wakes everyone up :D
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There are numerous points in this debate and as the thread shows, a variety of issues to be considered. I get worried on this issue that politicians will mislead the public into parochialism so they can protect their own interests, which is precisely what happened 18 months ago.
I don't care if I got deselected, I am not in it for the glory [or the money]. I want what's best for us all and at some point I want to sit down [from the outside] and watch someone else put as much effort in! An East Lancs Authority is the right way forward, with or without Blackburn. Hyndburn has sold a lot of its assets, has little revenue streams apart form the market hall and tax payer and colosal debts. So on finance it would make sense. There is absolutely no doubt we would see much better services because we wouldn't be as crippled financially and it would ease pressure on the Council Tax. There are other reasons. Mainly An East Lancs Uni; East Lancs Public Transport Policy [currently payed by Ratepayers to that 'marvelous' quango The East Lancs Partnership]; Tourism. We are talking about serious investment in making our area what we all know it should be, a great part of the country to live and enjoy life. I am totally opposed to quangos such as ELP and ELEVATE and whilst we have two council system, sometimes paying to do the same job twice, these quango's will go unchecked. I want to see the Council Tax come down under this system. The truth is though that it will cost more because it will need setting up. When Blackpool and Blackburn went unitary some studies suggested an extra cost of 10% to the ratepayer. However such is Hyndburns parlous state and such is the wealth in the Ribble Valley it may prove beneficial to go in simply on the argument the amount of council tax payed. |
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Its a bit pedantic to suggest LCC take 78% and not 85%. The other authorities are not local either and the point has no bearing on the fact that the vast bulk of money is spent way up the ladder in Preston. What a unitary authority will do is bring that 78% spending a lot closer to Hyndburn at the price of 15% of our Council tax moving upward/away.
So I don't accept the false argument that we are totally giving power/authority away from Hyndburn. Particularly when you consider as one point made was salaries at LCC. How many Hyndburn residents work there but live and shop here? An East Lancs authority where Blackburn and Burnley are rivals, Pendle/Ribble Valley and Rossendale are not on the main trunk route M65 puts Hyndburn in a great position. This represents not only an issue of better local democracy but good economic/employment benefits in which Hyndburn should seize on its central position. Maybe the Globe Centre + Scaitcliffe House??? Right now LCC is about to consolidate its Highways Department ending its costly contracts to local authorities. Willows Lane staff are about to be transfered to LCC, Willows Lane/HBC Highways Dept shut down and all operations moved to Whalley. I don't think that would have happened so easily with an East Lancs Authority. |
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Graham, before I reply to your posts, could I please ask why all your replies read like war & peace is that the politician in you
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Graham's replies seem as full as they can be, and fairly to the point. |
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[quote=Graham Jones]There are numerous points in this debate and as the thread shows, a variety of issues to be considered. I get worried on this issue that politicians will mislead the public into parochialism so they can protect their own interests, which is precisely what happened 18 months ago.
I would agree with that one, in particular the politicians missleading the public, as posted previous Empire building I don't care if I got deselected, I am not in it for the glory [or the money]. I want what's best for us all and at some point I want to sit down [from the outside] and watch someone else put as much effort in! We all want the best for us and our families An East Lancs Authority is the right way forward, with or without Blackburn. Hyndburn has sold a lot of its assets, has little revenue streams apart form the market hall and tax payer and colosal debts. So on finance it would make sense. There is absolutely no doubt we would see much better services because we wouldn't be as crippled financially and it would ease pressure on the Council Tax. What are these debts, are they not from somewhere in the past, say when Hyndburn was formed. There are other reasons. Mainly An East Lancs Uni; East Lancs Public Transport Policy [currently payed by Ratepayers to that 'marvelous' quango The East Lancs Partnership]; Tourism. We are talking about serious investment in making our area what we all know it should be, a great part of the country to live and enjoy life. Could East Lancs support a "Uni" I am totally opposed to quangos such as ELP and ELEVATE and whilst we have two council system, sometimes paying to do the same job twice, these quango's will go unchecked. Two council system, do HBC employ education staff, or library staff I want to see the Council Tax come down under this system. The truth is though that it will cost more because it will need setting up. When Blackpool and Blackburn went unitary some studies suggested an extra cost of 10% to the ratepayer. However such is Hyndburns parlous state and such is the wealth in the Ribble Valley it may prove beneficial to go in simply on the argument the amount of council tax payed. I think the current Council tax of HBC is cheapest in East Lancs including Burnley, Nelson,and the Ribble Valley, I would welcome a reduction in my council tax, but I know that if an Eat Lancs Authority were formed my council tax would go up.........again Empire Building |
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War and Peace was a better film than anything adapted from your writing.;) |
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[quote=Graham Jones]Its a bit pedantic to suggest LCC take 78% and not 85%. The other authorities are not local either and the point has no bearing on the fact that the vast bulk of money is spent way up the ladder in Preston. What a unitary authority will do is bring that 78% spending a lot closer to Hyndburn at the price of 15% of our Council tax moving upward/away.
Just making a point Graham, on the money being spent way up the ladder at Preston, look at the spend on education establishments in and around the area, Moorhead, Rhyddings, Spring Hill to name but a few. So I don't accept the false argument that we are totally giving power/authority away from Hyndburn. Particularly when you consider as one point made was salaries at LCC. How many Hyndburn residents work there but live and shop here? An East Lancs authority where Blackburn and Burnley are rivals, Pendle/Ribble Valley and Rossendale are not on the main trunk route M65 puts Hyndburn in a great position. This represents not only an issue of better local democracy but good economic/employment benefits in which Hyndburn should seize on its central position. Maybe the Globe Centre + Scaitcliffe House??? I think the salaries quoted were for an accountant working for HBC not LCC. So you are saying HBC as the centre of a "new authority" East Lancs Right now LCC is about to consolidate its Highways Department ending its costly contracts to local authorities. Willows Lane staff are about to be transfered to LCC, Willows Lane/HBC Highways Dept shut down and all operations moved to Whalley. I don't think that would have happened so easily with an East Lancs Authority. They must have been loosing money on the contracts But what about HBC with the "housing stock transfer" is that not the same thing, put in a different way |
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Should have added............love your hair net :D :D |
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Still not convinced that this will work as there are too many unknowns. Transfers and non contract renewal to allow private tendering is slower than the process is now (in my opinion) and have experienced what happens when all this happens many will have regrets within 18 months.
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When they messed about with the councils up here they said we would all benifit yet within 18 months we were worse of. When Falkirk Council came into being after the abolishment of Central Region Council things became a mess especially when they had to contract all the available work to the lowest bid. Standards dropped in all areas and their hands are tied. Council taxes keep going up yet there are cuts in services from what was meant to be the best way to run a council. Unitary hasnt worked here why should it be different down there. If people think there is an ego issue in HBC believe me it will get worse we have 2 councillor brothers with more power than the Provest. Poll tax started in Scotland failed so tried in England were it failed. Now they are trying it on with the councils. Where will it end?
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This may make interesting reading, from checking 6 local authorities web sites for Council Tax figures for this year (information that is there for all to see) I find that HBC have the lowest Council Tax of all the 6 checked. Band D is the base line for all Council Tax calculations other bands are %ages of that figure
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I am in two minds about this proposal. On the one hand I can appreciate the benefits of being a unitary authority. Lancashire CC is remote, arrogant and spends money like it is going out of fashion. On the other hand could you really imagine handing the half-wits at HBC any more responsibility than they have alread, not to mention a hugely increased budget? That has got to be one of the most effective recipes for disaster that I have yet heard. You have Britcliffe, who want's to screw every penny he can out of the borough, Dobson, who cannot tell the difference between a grant and a loan. Hayes, a crime czar who is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. And the psychotic Anne Scaife, who thinks that anyone who has more than one bag of rubbish to dispose of per fortnight should be hauled before the magistrates....
...and that is before we consider the foibles of the labour group, several of whom are doing very nicely out of Lancs CC, thank you very much! With a reasonable and responsible set of councilors the idea might just work to our benefit eventually, but with the motley collection of pantomime characters currently warming their backsides in the Mayor's Parlour, sorry Graham, there is not a hope in hell. |
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Nice bit of truth there A.b but better watch someone aint looking to find some libel in here. ;)
Besides they cant face the truth.:) |
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Excellent observations a-b
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More sense comes from this site than the council could ever hope to have. Mabe we should set up a school for them? Ermm maybe not cant educate those who dont want to be educated.
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Can't argue with you there A-B although there are a few good 'uns so shouldn't all be tarred by the same brush. Funnily enough most of them are the ones that just get on with it - not the glory hunters! Also, they're swimming through treacle at the moment because of the balance of power on the Council - perhaps next May ................hmmmmm (sighs into the distance).
As for your suggestion, Spuggie, not a bad idea, I think there should be training sessions for Councillors when they're first elected. It's a huge responsibility and without proper guidance it's probably quite easy to go along with the majority - sometimes the majority aren't right and it takes a lot of courage to stand up to them! |
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errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr does that not make 84.6% very nearly 85% i think!!!!! |
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absolutely brillant observations A-B, you just cheered me up no end.;)
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I take your point, Gayle. In a bunch of forty-odd there would have to be one or two good un's. It's just a pity that what they have to say is drowned out by the nic-nacs in Britcliffe's cabinet of curiosities.
I've got money on you NOT being one of the quiet ones. |
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Following on from a-b's observations, lets assume that we had "got rid" of LCC and were now part of a Unitary authority, say Blackburn with Darwen who now look after and administer all services including education, social services, library services etc. Would you be prepared to pay more through your council tax for that privilege. If we look at the current council tax charges of BwD and HBC we would find that in BwD they pay more in each council tax band, since band D is the base line and all other bands are calculated from D we would see that in band D BwD pay £73.05 more per year, the bottom end of the scale band A would be £48.69 more, the top end of the scale band H would be £146.10 more.
I am not saying I am in favour of the existing 2 tier system, just presenting some facts to the thread. |
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If it meant that taxpayer's money was spent responsibly on the needs of the people of the borough as opposed to the scandalous empire building and waste that goes on at County Hall, then yes, I am sure people could be persuaded to part with a bit extra. After all, Blackpool and Blackburn with Darwen don't seem to be doing too badly by being out of the county system and they seem to have few problems in attracting funding from Europe and HMG.
To change the subject slightly, did anyone see the report on yesterday evenings BBC news about two chaps removing those ridiculous "You are now entering/leaving Lancashire" signs that some fool at County Hall has insisted be put on almost all the roads around the two errant boroughs? How much did this example of bureaucratic pique cost taxpayers? And moreover, what point does it serve? |
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Point taken a-b, but where do people find that extra few bob. If Blackpool and BwD are attracting funding from Europe and HMG, why are HBC not doing the same
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Probably the same place they find the hundreds of pounds they spend on Fireworks and tattoos and gel-nails and getting rat-arsed at the weekend; The DSS!
As has been commented on before, the reason why HBC do not do so well in the Official Handouts Stakes is because the ethnic, one-legged, lesbian, dyslexic, single-parent, who usually puts the bids together has been on extended sick leave for the last ten years. I will leave speculation on what he or she is actually sick of to you. |
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What HBC needs in post is a funder finder (this is not a plug for me because it's far too big a job for me to do along with all the other stuff I do - and am hoping to do). Other councils have them and what they do is trawl through all the stuff, in much the same way as I do, and then apply for the funds or pass the forms on to the groups that have the opportunity to apply for them. Then they work with that group to secure the funding.
First job real funder finders have to do is ensure that there is sufficient funding to keep their post open! |
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No comment I would be in deep water if I did. Anyway if giving them what for on a regular basis helps the town then we could call her tornado or typoon. :)
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I know! And I'm not likely to tell you so let's stick to Gayle Force - I quite like that!
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Note; Hyndburns debts [to banks] has risen from £10m to £27m under PB. Thats a debt per each Hyndburn household of £813 up from £318 under George Slynn. I mention this because other authorities owe less but have a higher Council Tax. Note 2; In 2004 Hyndburn BC services were cut by 8% and in 2005 by 15%. BAND A Hyndburn £866 Burnley £886 Ribble Valley £840 Blackburn £849 *** UNITARY *** Rossendale £893 Pendle £890 Figures April 2005 - March 2006 http://www.upmystreet.com/home-review/council-tax/ |
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On a seperate note. Both LCC and HBC have overlapped services Parky. Payroll, Highways, Engineering, Planning, Corporate Services, Democratic Services, IT, Environmental Services, maybe not Libraries but you forgot Museums to name a few. And where their isn't direct overlap there has to be consultation and negotiation and legal and financial exchanges. Added to this is a Labour LCC and Conservative HBC which means there can be a lack of direction. Where there is no clear resposibility for either; public transport and strategic housing we have ELEVATE and ELP. All with their own management, increased overheads and some duplicity particularly in back office bureacracy. |
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If they were to become a single entity what would the true cost be as extra staff would be required?
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