We have been here before...sadly
 

In what is shaping up to be a re-run of last year's tragic events in Iraq another Briton finds himself in captivity this evening along with colleagues from the USA and Canada.

Norman Kember is 74 years old and is a committed christian. His captors claim that he is a spy and that unless the Iraqi Government and the American occupying forces agree to release all detainees by Thursday they will execute them all!

For the love of God, when will all this madness end? How many more decent, caring people have to be traumatised and die horrible deaths before these pea-brained dick-wavers get the message - no one is going to negotiate with them and no one is going to take their ridiculous demands seriously. Prancing around in combat fatigues is so, like, twenty years out of date!

But that is not really the point is it? The real point of the kidnapping is sour the Christmas season and sow dissention and discord in the helpless populations of allied nations to keep up the pressure for a disengagement in Iraq so that these clowns in balaclava's can drag Iraq and her people back to the fourteenth century.

That Norman Kember and his colleagues have their faith to sustain them in their extremity is perhaps a small crumb of comfort. And I am sure that the thoughts and prayers of many fellow Britons, Americans and Canadians will be with them and their families over the next few days.

I am also sure that the governments of Great Britain America and Canada will be doing whatever thay can to secure the release of these men. All that we can do is to hope for a favourable outcome but we must also stand firmly behind our governments in stating and re-stating that there can be no negotiation with terrorists. Change is won through the ballot box, not through the barrel of a gun or on the edge of a blade.

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Maybe they should be told release them or we release Sadam and co and see how brave they are then. Chances are they will disappear rapidly and hide for the rest of their limited days. The toppled regime used terror for control so now some wasted in the head bam thinks he can do the same.

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I'm not being funny but what was he doing there in the first place? I know it doesn't justify his kidnap but surely he knew he was taking a huge risk.

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i heard on the radio he went over there as a peacekeeper.

ironic.

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He was supposedly there as a peace keeper, helping ease tensions between Sunnis and ****es, as part of a Christian organisation. I do have more sympathy for this man than the Liverpudlian, who was sadly killed last year, who was there for his own financial gain.

No weapons of masss destructions found, British and Allied service men and women still being killed, and a country on the edge of civil war, was it worth it?

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Lol at the auto censor.

Says S-hites.^

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sorry, posted same reply twice - see below

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Some of the MPs are now regretting their decision to support the war. I read in the Lancs Eve Tel that a few of them are now starting to question their stance. Got to admit this is one area where I have never, ever supported my own party and would have had to vote against if I was in that position. Not worth it!

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hell no,
but...
this may sound rather cynical and this is only my own opinion - but i would rather be trying to seek peace in another country under Blair's office than having a social class war in our own country because of the Tories. id rather not go back to Thatcher's britain.

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Not cynical, just a bit of a different matter, though I do agree with you.

Saddam was an dictator, but no different from Robert Mugabe, the only difference is one country has oil reserves the other doesn't.

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Errrm...'scuse me but, according to your profile, you arent old enough to remember "Thatcher's Britain". I am. I am also old enough to remember Callaghan and Wilson's Britain which preceded it, and I know which I prefer. The "Social Class War" that you prate so glibly about was largley an invention of the marxist left of the then Labour Party. "Rock Against Raciscm" and The Anti-Nazi League" and "Babies Against The Bomb" were all development's from socialism as is "Political Correctness".

"Trying to seek peace in another country under Blairs office"? The west is in Iraq at the behest of Mutinational Oil Companies, the ideas of Freedom and democracy for Iraq are a thin veneer designed to disguise basic greed and persuade the sheeple to follow meekly.

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Britains greatest claim to fame is being part of the "self preservation society" as they are using Iraq to be certain of a future for itself. If people want to see what real Britain and oil mean then wait to see what happens when north sea oil runs out. Scotland will suddenly become independent as it wont have what London craves.

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obviously im not old enough to remember the peak of Thatchers power but i have heard of all the pain and struggle she caused amongst working class folk from my parents and family friends etc.
i didnt say we are GETTING peace in Iraq; i said the AIM of the war is to bring about democracy and some kind of peace to the country.

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Is this you coming out as a Conservative A-b?

Surely if you remember Thatcher, Callaghan, and Wilson you must also remember Heath, and the winter of discontent? Power cuts, food shortages, three day weeks. Happy days under a Tory government.

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I wasn't around in the second world war, but I still have an opinion about it. Shakermaker is allowed his view just as everyone else is. Age is not a barrier to having a point of view.

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ime probably gonna get slammed for this but i have no sympathy for ANYONE who voulenteers to goto iraq to " help out " and get held hostage especialy after all the publicity regarding beheadings of previous people who have gone there regardless of why they were there

i think it was very inconsiderate of this old guy to go to such a dangerous place in regards to his family ie children and grandchildren if he has any

yes there are some parts of iraq that want peace but there also a hell of a lot of iraqi people that resent the british and americans so why go there at all especialy at his age

did he think they wouldnt target him because he was old because to be honest his captures couldnt care less about age as far as they are concerned all they see is a westerner who i dare say are quite looking forward to executing him

my advice is stay the hell at home and let tony blair sort this mess out and president bush , they started this let them finish it

Re: We have been here before...sadly
 

Ohh here we go again. You know perfectly well that I in no way would seek to limit anyone's right to express an opinion on anything. And by the way, the "Winter of Discontent" is generally ascribed to the terminal period of Callaghan's government, not Ted Heath's.

I took issue with Shakermaker because I am weary of hearing what a tool of the devil Margaret Thatcher was. It's an easy, sloppy and unthinking observation. Yes, they were difficult times to have to live through and they were not made any easier by the bloody mindedness of union bosses and the people they led. But we did live through them and we emerged stronger because of it. I am not saying that Margaret Thatcher was a saint, far from it, but she wasn't the spawn of satan either! And considering that the alternative was Neil Kinnock I think we did pretty well.

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thousands unemployed because of her?
ask all those that were made redundant if they think we did 'pretty well'

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Iraq was at peace before George and Tony decided to go in and stir things up. Had they not done so, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi men women and children would be alive today, quietly going about their daily lives. Ken Bigley and all the other murdered western hostages would still be alive. 2000 US soldiers would still be alive and OVER A HUNDRED BRITISH SOLDIERS WOULD STILL BE ALIVE! And HM Treasury would be £6Billion better off.

Yes Saddam Hussein was a despot, but the region has a history of despotism, they know how to deal with it. What they do not have, is any understanding of democracy. And what the allies have signally failed to do is teach the Iraqi people anything at all about the concept other than that they can now vote for who they like rather than who they were told to. Some democracy! Some freedom!

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The extraordinary levels of unemployment which peaked at somewhere between 3.6 million and 5 million (depending on how you calculate the figure) during Mrs Thatchers administration were the result of years of political mismanagement of the economy, underinvestment in research and development and the industrial infrastructure, restrictive work practices and general resistance to change. Add to this a global recession and rocketing oil prices and I would say that we did get out of it relatively easily. It could have been a hell of a lot worse!

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note to self - never ask for a straight answer from a Torie!

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Additional note: Never make unfounded and unprovable accusations and always research your subject before venturing an opinion.

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this guy is like a politicians self-help book!
lol

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There is always 2 sides to a story and the truth is usually around the middle. I saw the 80's and what it meant for all on both sides of the political fence and it was definately not one sided.

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my original point was just that i would much rather be in the political state we are now than we were under the last tory government, not trying to state i know everything about politics or unemployment percentages or anything like that.
i was just trying to insert a little bit of perspective

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If you care to carry on the discussion I would be happy continue and share my opinion and knowledge, but please, can we do it without resorting to puerile insults?

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ohhh but they're my favourite type of insults!! lol

but seriously folks...
shouldnt the govt. have brought in a temporary ruling that only officials from Red Cross, Christian Aid etc should be allowed into Iraq to provide aid? this would prevent a lot of kidnappings of individual 'do-gooders'

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The political and economic state we are in now was inherited from the last Tory government. New Labour inherited a £20 Billion budget surplus when it took office, which Gordon Brown has managed to turn into a £50 Billion deficit. Next week he will stand up in Parliament and deliver his pre-budget statement, in which he will attempt to convince the country that everything is going swimmingly. Unemployment is begining to rise. the economy is growing nowhere near as fast as he confidently predicted in April. The trade deficit is increasing. The government will do nothing to sort out pensions or the health service or education and the tax burden is higher now than it has ever been but, the country is safe in New Labour's hands. Oh and because he isn't so hot at negotiation Gordon's mate, Tony, is going to give the EU £1.5billion of our rebate back, for which, President Chirac and his farmers, will no doubt be eternally grateful for. My word, you are right, we don't know when have it good, do we?

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well i tried to get back on topic but i suppose it aint gonna happen!

Re: We have been here before...sadly
 

Posts are overlapping.

Why should it be the government who has to say you should not go here or do that? Are we not all grown up's and capable of making decisions for ourselves?

Norman Kember, I am sure, weighed up the pro's and con's of working in Iraq before he went. No one goes into such a dangerous situation without doing so, unless of course they are clinically insane.

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well obviously us brits are too thick to realise that we could be the next Norman Kember or scouse bloke (forgive me for forgetting his name) that gets kidnapped and god forbid, killed.
perhaps its our own good nature taking over commonsense, which is why we should be prevented from going out to Iraq in the middle of a war!

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Its the good nature of us that will get us into these situations but at the end of the day who are the ones that look bad.

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You cannot legislate against people wanting to offer help to those in difficulty. That is one of the things that marks us out as different from all the other species which inhabit the planet. Another trait which marks us out as different is our apparent relish for killing each other.

I understand from the BBC that Norman's wife has just recorded an appeal to the kidnappers which will be broadcast to Iraq via Al-jazeera.

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Hope his wife can get through to them and have them release him. He is a pawn in a game not of his choosing as he was in the wrong place at the wrong time unfortunately. This is not to say he shouldnt have been in Iraq just that he was unlucky to be were the "terrorists" decided to "collect" a few bargining chips.

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I have just been reading many of the posts in this thread and was amazed and dismayed at some of the serious comments that have come out of it.

First, The Conservatives are not an anti worker party nor did their goverments lead to the social unrest of the mid eighties.

Second, the present government which claims to be socialist is anything but. I also believe that many Labour supporter's are also disappointed with this government and only voted to keep it in power becasue they considered it thes lesser of two evils!

Third, this government has seen a huge rise in social injustice through high tax high spending and unfair regulation and removal of the so called freedoms of the populace than any other post war government.

If you think that this government has benefitted the so called ordinary working class any more than the conservatives then you are seriously decieved. If anything the gap between the have and the have nots has been widend considerably. Not least due to the fact that it is now harder for people of an ordinary finanicial background to get into higher education (even with the so called student loan). Many 18-21 year olds will not got to universty as a result and fear of the hudge debt they will have to begin their adult lives with. Do we call this social justice for the working class?

As for restricting the movements of people who wish to enter Iraq or any other dangerous region in orded to help those less fortunate than ourselves! Well exactly what the hell kind of a solution to the worlds problems is that?

It sounds to me like some people here would like to have a simlliar regeme to the one that has just been removed in Iraq!

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unfortunatly it wasnt good nature that got us into iraq..it was lies and deceit ,and now we are stuck with it .....oil its all about oil nothing less.

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The guy who was kidnapped is a peace activist, a christian in a muslim country, not just a muslim country but an unstable one, doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out it may not be safe to be there.

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Quite right, Muslims do not like Chritians or their culture or their heritage!

Makes you wonder why we let so many come here don't you think!

Though whilst I agree with your comment. Where would we be if no one risked anything to help others.

You could say the same about firemen or other kinds of professional risk taking.

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I think you mean peace maker. No matter.This is just another idealistic middle-class crackpot with no idea of reality. I suspect that he will be returned to this country after someone has made pieces of him. And I really don't give a damn.

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Sorry B W but the main reason these do-gooders go there is to convert, I have seen it in action and they are no different then the devout muslims who say theres is the better path to follow.

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Well if thats your attitude to life then perhpas no one should give a damn about what happens to you!

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i have a lot of friends in iraq at the moment, some as body guards some doing other things ...they all know the risks they are taking and judging by some of the stories i have heard, it aint no walk in the park but money talks ..and like i said they all no the risks involved and most important money talks ..
bad wolf i hear ya man .. visit any muslim country abide by their rules ,girls have to cover up arms, and heads men shouldnt wear shorts no alchohol damn!!!! why the home office even have guidlines .i bet they dont have guidlines for anyone entering the uk....or maybe this one applies come to britain do as you please and dont worry ,you can even stay..at the tax payers leisure..

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No muppet, it was reported that he was there as part of a peace keeping mission, just as the UN are in trouble spots throughout the world.

What am I thinking now?..................................You still here?

Like no way. I'm loosing my powers.:)

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Don't argue back.

Just sit on his knee, and if he's had to much gin he might give you a Wurthers Original.;)

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do we have a smiley that gives a round of applause ...?

exactly spot on tealeaf

i hope any other idiot whos thinking of going to iraq sees his family plea for his life and sees the pain and unessasary suffering he has caused his family

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I wonder what their life insurance premiums would be if the Insurance company found out he was going to Iraq? If they could get any would it be worth it as those left behind will be the ones that suffer as much if not more than those they plan to help. :confused:

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...living under a dictator who one minute would be praising his country and the next murdering his people?
what a way to live.
i in no way agree with going to war and i believe the war in iraq is a farce and was definitely not the last resort.
HOWEVER, we are there now and will be for a while yet, so i put my full faith behind the proper autoritories of the Queens regiments to instill peace to a troubled country.
me? behind a queen? well i never thought id say that...

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The civillian death ratio would not have been higher or lower under Sadam its just we wouldnt have heard about most of it. Still cant believe there are some who want the old days back the sad dellusional sods.

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out of sight out of mind ,it's because not much news came out of iraq in the dark days, because of the oppression and the censorship and what not ' kinda like the old iron curtain ...a classic case of no news is good news .people on the outside thought "not much going on here"!nice peacefull little country ...now that the regime has been overthrown ,and every reporter and his dogs there, it headlines everyday so the sad delusional fools think we've ruined what was once a utopia in the middle east ...
then i belived what blair said about the wmd and the need to take saddam out ,but now i know it was all a crock of poo!! in hindsite i shoulda knew better never trust a politican ,especially a smirking hand wringing one !!!our troops are there wether or not you support the war.. its esential that we support our boys ,after all soldiers dont start wars polutions sorry i meant politicans do ...

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I in no way support the premise that Iraq was some sort of middle-eastern utopia. As I have already said, Saddam was a despot. However, the situation in Iraq was a creation of Iraqi's and having made their bed they should have been left to lie in it. Which they would have been, had it not been for the fact that western oil multinationals coveted control of Iraq's oil reserves.

It is an inescapable fact that a great many people, both military and civilian, have died because of the invasion, occupation and insurgency, people who would, in the normal course of events, probably still be alive and kicking.

The main point of my argument is that this unecessary war has been fought at enormous cost to many for the sole benefit of a few greedy and shortsighted men.