Euro Rebate
 

Mr Blair has given away part of the rebate from Europe in order to get the budget through £5.5 billion in cash. Now what do we gain for this "generousity;"

Farm spending review in 2008 - Until 2014 French farmers will still get their Brussels dole.

We will as taxpayers have to fork out 42 billion for the gravy train. Its total £584 billion (862 billion euros) tobe mis spent and wasted.

The new countries from the east of Europe are supposed to be better off.

More Brussels interfearence.

Who gains most from this? As usual France. They will pay more but get more from CAP. I think we have been nelsoned again and it was time we bailed as the cash sent over there could/would be better spent here on the NHS Schools Dentists etc.

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Europe is such a waste of money. I'd put a huge string of arguments but well, I can't be arsed because nothings gonna be done till Mr Cameron gets in to power :p

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what makes you think he will do anything about it...?

like every other crook he will prommise the world and deliver sweet F.A

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maybe we should have joined the e.u. earlier..and then we would have had more clout.....

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As I recall, Granny, we joined just as soon as we were allowed to. The main reason we did not join earlier than we did was because De Galle did not want us in and did everything he could to veto our membership. Don't you just love the french? I would like to see them all drown in a pit of their own vomit!

To return to the matter in hand though, Wasn't it Blair the liar who has just come through a general election in which he promised the British Public that he would not sacrifice one penny of our rebate until the French agreed to cut what they take from the Common Agricultural Policy?

Not only has he betrayed all the people who were stupid enough to have voted for him, but has meekly agreed to allow France to keep their CAP payments with only the vaguest of agreements to review it in three years, thus handing Chirac a victory and on top of that has handed Europe an extra 10.7 Billion Euro's. All to bolster his "legacy".

Funny isn't it, quite a few European Agriculture Ministers were opposed to cutting what the French claim from the CAP and, oddly enough, most of those also happen to own farms in France.

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Tony Blair has done everything he can this last week to please the French and a small hand full of other European countries.

Perhaps he should start dealing with europe in a way that will please people in his own country.

We must not forget that this money he is giving away belongs to the public, not the Government, and that sooner or later he will and the labour party will have to answer for it!

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Look at it from another point of view, whatever he does is going to be a heck of a lot better than Tony "Liar" Blair :p

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Maybe if we were more positive about Europe then we wouldn't get such a raw deal from the original 6 members.

One thing that does amuse me though is the irony of all the UK farmers bleating on about Europe and how they hate it, yet they are loathe to let go of their lovely subsidies from the CAP. :)

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Could you explain exactly what there is to be positive about? We pay far more in that we get out - money that disappears into a budget that is so wasteful and tainted by corruption that the auditors have refused to sign the accounts off for 11 years running. We are saddled with more and more legislation which has been decided by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels (or Strausbourg, because the whole thing moves there for a week every month so as not to upset the feelings of the French). And now, thanks to this deceitful, vain, weak-willed man, we have the misfortune to call our prime minister, we are paying even MORE for the privilege!

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There is quite a lot to be positive actually.

The Social Chapter giving more rights to workers after Thatcher reduced them to nought. The adoption of the Human Rights Act. The abolition on duty if you travel between member states, to name just 3.

It beggars belief that the very people who removed an awful lot of democracy from the local tiers of government have the audacity to moan about the removal of democracy when it happens to them.

What annoys me about certain conservative members of the the European Parliament is how they attack Blair (who I consider a sell out) when he has no platform of support following the agreement that Major made at Maastricht in 1993.

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Interesting that you seem to think that Euroscepticism is confined to Tories. I'm not particularly a Tory (more a cynical, floating voter) and I would suggest that a huge number of non-Tories in this country are deeply suspicious of the projected European Superstate. I was also interested in your use of the phrase "...the removal of democracy when it happens to them". So, you admit that democracy has been removed from this country, then?

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Europe wants to be a big plaher but seems to forget there is no "i" in team. If they are so determined to succeed then whay cant they work together? Some countries I think need this set up so badly they will do anything to make sure it dosnt change in a way that affects what they have/will have. If Blair dosnt come to his senses soon we will end up paying even more than we do now which is wrong. Part of the rebate has been "returned" for a deal that costs more than we lost on the rebate surrender. Is this the way forward or should we be standing up and giving certain countries the international sign of displeasure? I hate the thought that the tax I pay has been given to a bunch of narrow minded inflexable nambies (mentioning no names.) Are we going to grow old wondering when the next European rip off scan is coming?

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Wasn't labour originaly against the idea of economic europe, and infact the only referendum we have had in the UK (that was to the whole electorate) was done because labour wanted to jump out of the common market which the previous conservative government had joined..

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Which ever party that was in the past in favour (or not) of joining the European Union is not really important any more, especially now that the union is nothing like what it was then.

What is important is whether or not we want to be a part of what this union has since become.

I think perhaps the time has come to leave this utterly corrupt union behind and concentrate on what is best for Britain!

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blair basically got ass-whooped - gave away the part of the rebate and got a fiddle stick in return.

tehy're sayin that by the time gordon brown comes into power there's gona b a large debt there as a result of this

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Blair has betrayed his own country in the interests of his ego. Our contribution will rise by an amazing 63%, from £3.5 billion a year to £6 billion a year. Meanwhile, the hugely wasteful CAP which takes up 40% of the EU budget and benefits the French more than anybody else goes unreformed. So French farmers will grow fat while we have to cut back on school and hospital building progammes. All this so that Blair could protect his legacy as a great European leader. As far as I'm concerned, he should be clapped in irons and thrown in the Tower of London.

However, perhaps I'm missing something. Could any Labour councillors or party members justify their leader's actions?

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is that the famous tower in london where traitors got their heads stuck on spikes as a warning to others..?

seems like tony blair is a national hero..


in france :mad:

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Nice thought, Chav...that'd wipe that stupid grin off his face!:)

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He would find some poor lakey to take his place as this issue would be anyones fault but his. Maybe he is after being a French citizen when he retires.

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well if i had mad as much of a balls up of the uk as he has i woudlnt want to stay here either

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Actually I owe you an apology, I meant to state perceived removal. Mind you when you add an extra tier of government somewhere along the line someone loses out.

Also I didn't mean to suggest you were a Tory, the old far left and right both seem loathe to accept the inevitable. Be they Dennis Skinner, Tony Benn, Norman Tebbit or Enoch Powell.

I am not particularly in favour of Europe nor against it. On a personal level I can see some very good things have come from Brussels/Strasbourg/The Hague such as the Social Chapter. Some real clangers have as well (not least expenses for MEP's.), but in reality within the next 25 years Europe will be to all intents and purposes one State. We will all be using the Euro and being ruled from the mainland. Realistically this will not change mine nor your life the only real difference will be the non necessity of passports when we travel.

I just feel we should embrace it now so we have a bigger say when it happens.

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I'll give you one thing, Stanaccy, at least you're honest about it. This makes a refreshing change from the vast majority of Euro-enthusiasts who tell us that of course the EU poses no danger to our independence, we will remain a sovereign state and all the other bull that they regularly peddle.

However, I totally and utterly reject your vision of a future as one state "ruled from the mainland." To surrender our democracy to a vast, remote, unaccountable body like this would be a disaster for our country.

I also reject your view that only fringe figures on the old far left and right refuse to accept the inevitable (by the "inevitable" I am assuming you mean the "inevitability" of a European Superstate). I think you will find that very large numbers of people in this country refuse to accept the dominance of the EU as inevitable and Blair's sell-out may have increased their awareness of the dangers that lie ahead!

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Hopefully this whole episode opened some eyes and started people thinking. If Europe wants "superstate status" it has to be all equal not some bullying others to get there own way. For this to go ahead soveriegnty would have to be surrendered something we are proud of and people gave up their lives for. A bunch of self serving gimps on the continent telling us how we should be governed and considering what hassle we get with EU directives know what will we get if we were part of this superstate.

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how did france a country that surrenedered in bothe world wars ever get so much power

maybe we should just threaten the frogs with an invasion and they will shut up

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Better check blair aint sold the armed forces to europe as well first.

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France only surrender was the second world war!

As for selling the armed forces the Defence Secretary has already annouced that the building of the hulls of most Royal Navy warships are to out sourced to other countries because it is cheaper than paying British workers!

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Dosnt say much for buy British. I they gave up some of the wasteful spending and that pot of money that goes to Euroland we could afford to build our own navel ships. Wonder if the outsourcing had anything to do with European compition laws? Only France gets to ignore them.

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I keep trying to say this but everyone either refuses to listen or just doesn't want to. The loss of our rebate and the "sell out" as you keep calling it was signed away by John Major in Maastricht in Novemer (I believe) 1993.

This was the one treaty since the Treaty of Rome in 1960 that sealed the way forward for Europe. Everything since then has been a bit part. There will always be arguments over annual budgets, the CAP (I know the French will fight tooth and nail for it but I don't see any of our farmers complaining about it.) and one of the main problems as with any bureaucratic organisation is corruption. Hopefully the corruption will be cut with the new security measures coming into place next April (again I think).

As for surrendering our democracy, wrong phrase I think, just moving our seat of government. I also believe we will be a federal state with only major decisions made on the mainland (similar to the US model).

Pity no politician from any persuasion has entered into this one I feel it would be a good forum for them to put their view across.:)

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Although I agree that Maastricht was (in my view) yet another disastrous move towards a European superstate, I don't see how it affected our rebate which has still remained intact until now. The Government originally said that the rebate was not up for renegotiation...which has proved to be a lie. Then that the rebate would only be cut in return for cuts in CAP...which turned out to be another lie and was always going to prove difficult anyway, as Blair had already agreed to the CAP budget until 2013 three years ago. However, he should have grasped the nettle and told Chirac and the rest of them that if they didn't agree to reopen CAP talks, he'd simply pack his bags and come home. But of course, all he's bothered about is his "legacy" as a good European, then of course, there might be that cushy EU job in the future just like his mates, Mandy and Kinnock.

As for corruption, yes, it exists in any bureaucratic organisation, but not on the same breathtakingly grand scale as it does in the EU. But, of course, that'll be cut by "the new security measures coming into place next April." Just in time to see a phalanx of pigs floating over the European parliament.

And, quite frankly, I don't want to live in some kind of federal state based on the US model. I'm reasonably happy with our present arrangement, despite its many faults. I would, however, like to see a government that shows just a little bit of mettle by starting to reclaim some of the many powers that the EU have taken away from us.

I do agree with you, though, that there has been a conspicuous absence of political party members contributing to this thread...I wonder why?

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the shame is about the eu htey shud spend it with regards to where the most beneficial is gonna b - eg urban areas

not knockin the farmers but i dont see how the few shud mean lower standards for the majority

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Chirac thinks he is Napolean reincarnate and is out to put the whole of Europe under the thumb. While they can rake in a lot for very little they are going to ignore any treaties that have been signed. A few members threw a creamy when their budgets were not in the 3% band that was agreed and tried to worm out of it. The superstate will never be unless the members sort themselves out and stop this "yes to superstate but with my national needs intact.

Blair seems to think its workable which means he must be floating higher than the pigs and pink elephants. He has shown he has the backbone of a jellyfish and the crasp of public opinion of a rocking horse. I am with WH on it being time to reclaim some of our lost powers but Blair wont because he aint got the bottle or gumption to take Europe on. Yes as WH says we have our faults but is it not time to put the "GREAT" back in Great Britain and kick some continental arther.