Respect
 

Now that Tony Blair has highlighted the anti social behavior problems that plague our lives.I would like to pose a question to other webbers:Has the problem solely arisen because youngsters no longer recognise what is unacceptable behavior?
Is this due to the fact that they have never been taught right from wrong at an early stage of developement?
Personally I think we are now reaping the rewards of the 60's and 70's when many Universities were breeding left wing tree huggers,who later went into Schools and other youth orientated employment and spread the word."Resist the norm,rebel,let it all hang out!"
Or have I just got older and (hopefully)wiser?:rolleyes:

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well if you have so have i...

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I don't think you can 'bolt on' respect. Tony Blair is just mouthing off about a problem which we all face.....but which society as a whole has created.
It was created by people who thought that they could 'have it all.....without any strings'

I have said in other posts many times that everyone knows their rights.... but no-one wants to take responsibility for the things they do in life. Every action we take has consequences.......and I think that society has led people to believe that consequence relate to other people and not to them.

Increasingly the state tries to take control of what we do and is now trying to tell us what we should think (PC brigade?).......now Teflon Tony is spouting off about how parents should be controlling their children....and if they aren't controlling them to his/schools liking then he will MAKE them have parenting lessons.....how long will it be before children are removed from parents who are deemed to be making a bad job of parenting? I find the latest moves by the government very Orwellian.....or am I just being cynical or perhaps paranoid?

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Well I am a child of the liberal sixties and seventies, and I know right from wrong.

Without wishing to score political points, because I honestly believe it, I blame Thatcherism.

The whole ethos of caring for others ended at this time. People were encouraged to expect, and to get what they wanted, be it owning their own homes, share ownership, and material wealth of every kind.

I think a fundamental changed happened in the British psyche. Our ability as a nation to feel charitable towards others first, rather than ourselves ended, and the next generation are even more consumed with expecting everything handed to them on a plate.

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Rindy………………..That’s complete and utter Vollocks.

This was a problem long before Thatcher and I do believe that it stems from the liberal softly, softly Human Rights brigade of the 60s & 70s.

These thugs and that is all they are, have lost there fear. They know that even when caught and prosecuted they’ll almost always get off lightly.

If you want to resolve this situation and re impose a regime of respect for others, property and life then you will have to turn the clock back and return to a time when punishment mattered. That will have to include the right of parents to chastise their children and enforced discipline in our schools, work places and prisons.

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I think it is impossible to go back to a regime where punishment fitted the crime......there are too many people who think that criminals are the victims of their deprived upbringing.

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can i just point out that it is not only 'youngsters' who receive these stupid pointless ASBO's; it's a whole lot of people aged 50+!

meaning that a lot of these people ARE the 'treehuggers' of the 60's!

it can only be a good thing, maaaaaan

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The breakdown of extended families had something to do with relaxed attitudes towards respect. I know that when I was growing up we were taught to respect our elders......Grandparents were given the right to chastise children......and grandparents were often the carers of shildren while the parents went out to work...so what could be considered Old fashioned values were instilled into the children without them realising.

The breakdown of marriage also must have contributed........my mother would threaten us with the phrase 'wait 'til your father gets home' and it would strike fear into our hearts. My father only had to look at us if we had done something wrong and you knew you were for it. Not that my father was feared.....on the contrary, he was much loved for setting boundaries.

We had a local bobby who everyone knew because he lived in the community.......he would give you a clip round the ear if he caught you throwing stones or doing some other mischief....anything worse and he would haul you in front of your parents and you would get a 'seat warming'.

I'm sure that lives were easier then......but I am afraid that there is no going back.

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Shaker... you are right of course..... but I am sure ther are far more teens and young adults who are subject to the pointless ASBO's.......maybe the adults who are subject to the ASBO's are the grandparents of the teenagers who have ASBO's slapped on them.

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I'm sorry you disagree with me so wrongly Doug. Of course I'm not blaming Mrs Thatcher per se, after all we as a country elected her government. I do however think that our selfish attitude started in the eighties, and not the liberal sixties.

We became a nation that put self first, and consumerism as our God paramount. We now have a whole generation who expects as a right, all the latest designer goods they want, be it clothes or the latest expensive gadgets. People won't scrimp and save to get what they want like they used to, they expect what they think of as a good quality of life now.

I also agree with Margaret about the breakdown of family life is a major contibution to the problem.

Trouble with marriage- easy to get divorced, and excahange like you would a faulty DVD player.

Granny getting old? Instead of her living with her family, and using her life skills, easier to stick her in a home.

All attitudes I think came to prominence in the 80's, not the 60's, in my view.

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Everyone has had a part to play in this mess but very few will hold up their hand and say that got it wrong. Its a collective responsibility that requires a colective response. If a fraction of the parties involved co-operated me might get someware. Materialism easy divorce softly softly approach even no blame culture is not helping. A huge boot up the dumpie to society as a whole is required sooner than later. The young copy their parents and idols who at that age did the same so our societies fabric is changing to the point of us being labeled as stereotypical of what we have become.

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Well said that Man................:engsmil:

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I MUST BE A BAD PERSON...because i truely believe
.................................................. ..........
you should respect other people...
the world DOES NOT owe you a living ..
you SHOULD smack naughty children....
you SHOULD praise good children ...
hanging should be brought back....
teachers should be able to be in control ....
:engsmil: OH I COULD GO ON FOREVER..................:engsmil:

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Life should mean life........children should be scared of bobbies......we should be able to say what we think without someone from the PC brigade breathing down our necks....parents should be responsible for their offspring......Politicians should tell the truth...even if it is unpalatable......they should bring back National Service and both boys and girls should have to spend 2 years in the forces learning a trade......like you granny........I could go on and on. We must both be singing from the same hymn sheet and in the same church too.

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hmmm how can children feel safe when they are they are scared of the very people supposed to be protecting them.

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You two ladies should be speaking to Mr Blaire. However, I must agree with you both. I think 3 years National Services should be a minimum. With at least one over seas tour...........

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It's called respect.........:)

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im sorry i was under the impression there was a difference between fear and respect

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Doug...do you think he would listen to us....? When has he ever listened to the people of the country? He is so full of his own self importance and his half baked ideas. I thought that the population voted in the people who would serve the country best...now how naive is that???????

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Shaker......to have respect there must be a small element of...well, perhaps not FEAR exactly......but concern.

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you have to EARN respect to GAIN it.
maybe if the conduct of police officers wasnt so apalling younger people would hold them in higher esteem.
maybe.

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When I was young I wasn't scared of a policeman... I knew he was there to protect me......unless of course I did something that was wrong......then I would be scared. I suppose it is to do with consequences......and understanding that you take the consequences for what you do.....but Hey if you think it is alright to have anarchic youth.......I am afraid you will be living with it and sorting it out for much longer than I will.

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Maybe if some of the youth weren't so appalling then the police would be better too.......it is like trying to decide which came first...the chicken or the egg.

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How many times have we both voted under that illusion Margaret? We can only hope to change British Politics by popular opinion. We complain, but to the wrong people. How many times’s do we go to the local surgery to protest, how many times do we question openly the decisions made in our name. How often do we get off our backsides?

Shakey, our local bobby hit me more than once, but I was never frightened or in fear of the man. I showed him respect and respect to my elders even when I was old enough to hit back.

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Respect is a two way street......yes you have to earn respect......that is true for both youth and police.

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im sure that the conduct of police officers was a lot more efficent when you were young. i am making the point that police officers should receive better training as to how to deal with situations involving "anarchaic youths"; so such troublemakers would actually respect their position in society.

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Doug the electorate of this country feel that the Prime Minister got in on a majority vote......but the majority of the people in this country did not vote for Tony Blair......and until we get proportional representation we will NEVER have the part with the majority of votes in leadership.... but hey that is another ball game altogether.

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We're not talking about anarchaic youth, we're talking about basic respect for one's elders and each other. Don't confuse Idiots and thugs with anarchaic youth.

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Your quite right Margaret.....:)

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There were fewer policemen Shakey......they didn't go around in two's.....they rode bikes.... and they would give you a stern telling off if they caught you up to any mischief.....and if they thought you deserved it they would give you a clip around the ear and then take you home and tell your parents what they had done. Parents didn't sue the police for the fact that their child had had a clip around the ear......you got another good hiding for needing to have the policeman bring you home.......I have not suffered as a result of such an up-bringing......I have a strong respect for authority.
Without a strong respect for authority the country is going to slide into anarchy.....it is half-way there already.

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Doug; i was merely quoting Margaret Pilkington

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Your young, don’t worry about anarchic youth, live every minute of your life to the highest achievable standards and strive to lead by example. It's a gift, use it, every minute.

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I don't believe the police need any more training to deal with anarchic youths........that is where many large organisations go wrong.......they come up against a problem and someone devizes a useless training course.

Youth will always have it's rebels. Respect is a core value that has to be taught at home, upheld by parents and schools.....and until this happens we will continue to have problems. These are however made worse by drugs and alcohol which is freely available to todays youth.

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I must admit; a little bit of invinceability comes across your mind; thinking "ah well im underage il get a slap on the wrist; they can't hit me or hurt me" not from personal experience...of course....ahem :D

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Repect for the law.

Would that be the same law that was cycling round the streets of Manchester and Glasgow when Brady and Hindley were growing up in the 40's/50's?

The good old days weren't immune from crime. Go back a little further, when we were supposed to be the civilised centre of an Empire, and try walking through one of out great Victorian cities after dark.

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Can we keep this in context……….This is the real world and it’s unpleasant, but we can hope to make it better, but only if we can talk sensibly…………

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I was.

I just think all this talk of a friendly clip round the ear from the local Bobby, with everything in the garden being rosey, is a bit cliched.

I've just watched on BBC2, hard nosed protaganist, and journalist Jerermy Paxman, reduced to tears as he found out how his well to do Yorkshire family roots really lay in the slums of Glasgow. Where his great grandmother lived with nine children in a one roomed tenament, and had her alms money stopped because she had the misfortune to have a child after she was widowed.

She would have shown, like many people of the time, 'respect' to her betters.

It doesn't make it a better world for that though.

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True..........I found my humble beginnings in a slum street in Blackburn, A death of a child in a boarding house with two up and two down and an outside crapper. Five families lived in that house including my own.

I respect what you say, but like Shaky, we talk of times we know and they weren’t bed of roses. I was a sod, like my mate’s, but we respected the law when it caught us, we didn’t abuse it or claim rights we weren’t entitled too. If we did wrong we were punished.

Hard times, I can one Christmas going to the Social Service department to choose a two Christmas Presents out of an old cardboard box. Everything was broken and dirty, and I mean dirty. I was shocked and heartbroken, partly because I was being told to pick a toy and get out, and partly because my mother was on her knees crying because our lives had come to this. She stood up and told the nasty bitch to stuff her toys. My mothers marched us out, sold what she could and give us a good Christmas. We’ve all see hard times and done thing we shouldn’t. But it’s not an excuse for the thugs you see hanging round the streets today dressed in expensive kit, spitting at old and young alike. Thank god these people are in the minority.

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We agree then Doug. There have always been bad people, but thankfully they are out numbered by the good, which is still the case.

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The Police were never intended to perform the role of Nanny. They are there to uphold and enforce the law. That shakermaker, as a young person, can misunderstand their role in society to such an extent speaks volumes about why there is a growing breakdown in social values.

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Well,an interesting and varied response to my posting.Another aspect I feel that has led to the breakdown is that the youth of today are generally more selfish in their outlook.They see,they want and they take;regardless of consequence.Yes lets have some form of National Service,though I feel that professional servicemen would be loathe to rely on some of todays potential recruits.

think you have hit the nail squarely on the head!
i also believe too many tree huggers and do gooders are loose in places of influence!About time government started looking to the homefront to sort things out sooner rather than later.:confused: :mad: markh

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We are going to have to find a place to start fixing this mess but by the time the govenment of the day has had it inquires, commitee meetings ,policy reviews cost analyzed, feasability studies and drawn up a set of beaurocrats to over see it we will be in a worse state than now. It has to start with no p,ing about and with no excuses or watering down.

Personally I think it should start with the primary schools and resposible parenting classes.

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Yes as Spuggie says primary schools would be a good start as would responsible parenting classes,but the only way some would attend would be for taxis to be provided and the classes to be held in the pub!
Wait for the next generation to start reproducing,just as things on the welfare front will be going pear shape.

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Personally I think that by the time the children get to primay school it is too late to start teaching respect.......respect needs teaching in the home from the moment the little ones can crawl.

And to Rindy....with the greatest respect, I wasn't talking a bout a firendly cuff around the earhole......there was nothing remotely friendly in it.
Yes, of course you are right....there have always been BAD people about.....and Myra Hindley and Ian Brady weren't just bad they were Evil....and I think no amount of chastisement would have made much difference to what they got up to......but for the majority of kids.... the local bobby was someone to be looked up to if you were innocent, but someone to be in awe of if you were caught up to no good.

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That would lead to the biggest riot in history if benifit was stop. Would that force them to go and do an honest days work? As it stands its too easy to get benifits and they dont have any resposibities because of this.
I know this is going to sound vile but to some of these scroungers just see kids as a convinient cash cow. Providing the jolly G rolls in they aint bothered about the kids they become surplas to requirements.

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Well we are all perhaps missing the point,this is the way to deal with the lack of respect http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/la...TTOPNEWS0.html.
Can't stop I'm off to show some ****** disrespect.
I live in hope.

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Whatch what you are doing he might dis you back. :);)

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Excuse me, is this Tony Blair you are discussing, who is so keen on responsible parenting, the same Tony Blair whose son was arrested for being drunk and disorderly?

Just asking.

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Well it's do as I say,not do as I do,as far as Tone is concerned .I must admit I was one who he duped with his original fresh outlook.Though that seems a long time ago.

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Yes the same little darling who was whisked away from puking up in Leicester Square, to spend his work experience in Paris for LVMH- Moet Hennessy Louis Vuitton, all organised through his father and whose accomodation/security allegedely cost the British tax payer £30,000.

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Just shows what believing a little bit of spin over X number of years can do to a country.

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Some of the spin is laughable and about as believable as a flying pink pig.

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Just as a matter of interest. Would the people advocating the return of National Service include girls? It seems to me, that when I was a kid, generally it was boys who were fighting and getting in to most of the trouble. How times have changed. There is, from what I hear from my grandchildren, as many girls as boys fighting and bullying in schools now as well as taking drugs and stealing from shops etc. So, should BOTH sexes be conscripted do their 2 or 3 years National Service?

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Yes, John......I think I put in my earlier post that I was in favour of both BOYs and GIRLs being conscripted. It would keep them off the streets and give them some discipline....and perhaps teach them a skill.

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Role reversals is what it's all about, lack of corporal punishment. 'If I do something wrong, dad will get into trouble if he punishes me, so i can do what I like. If he tries to tell me what to do I'll just tell him no, why should I give him respect, he should respect me, and the pigs they should respect me too, I've done nothing wrong.'

They should of course, but they should give respect to each other, the kids should be learning whats right and wrong, and why, and adults should be teaching whats right and wrong and why. We need adults in charge, kids behaving, but mutual respect. The bobby respected you, you respected the bobby, if you did wrong he corrected you, not just because it was wrong, but to help guide you in the right direction for the rest of your life, you took notice of him, cos you knew he didn't just say it to be awkard and nasty but had a reason to.

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I would be wholly in favour of a return to National service for both boys and girls born and living in this country regardless of colour, religion and social background. Young girls would probably try to get out of it by becoming pregnant, but I would favour a young mother taking her infant into the forces creche whilst she did her service. Good parenting classes are a joke, many people attend them because social services say they have to. In my opinion they make not one iota of difference. With transient renting communities landlords should have to be more responsible. I'll bet that there would be less rubbish lying around in back yards if the councils made the landlords pay for removal. It may make them think twice about who they are renting their properties out to.:)

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Some sort of army type discipline for young people is a good idea; bootcamps and that sort of thing. But National Service? Aren't we as a nation supposed to be supporting democracy in the free world instead of forcing our young people to join the forces?Carry on like that we'll have a Uganda situation with 14 year old equipped with AK-47's. Is that really a great idea?

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I'm not advocating National Service at the age of 14, I'm thinking 18 for those who have not gone into full time university education. 14 year olds with AK's normally belong to rebel groups and not the army.:D

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Sorry I obviously didn't read your posts properly. Yes I think National Service for 18+ would be a great idea. Obviously prison just doesnt work at all - the deterrence there is practically non-existant now.

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Like most things ment to punish today it has become a badge of honour among the teens (no offence intended shaker) and young adults. Mind you most proberly couldnt hack military life as it means they have to get out of bed at a fixed time day in day out and the same for going to bed. It will drive some stir crazy and into tears claiming they are being bullied. It can work though as a friend of mine was going of the rails but joined up at the last chance saloon and after 6 months he is a totally different person with respect for all. He enjoyed it so much he has been in 12 years now and aint coming out in a hurry.

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Like most things ment to punish today it has become a badge of honour among the teens (no offence intended shaker) and young adults. Mind you most proberly couldnt hack military life as it means they have to get out of bed at a fixed time day in day out and the same for going to bed. It will drive some stir crazy and into tears claiming they are being bullied. It can work though as a friend of mine was going of the rails but joined up at the last chance saloon and after 6 months he is a totally different person with respect for all. He enjoyed it so much he has been in 12 years now and aint coming out in a hurry.

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Completely agree with you.
Most teens who end up in that kind of lifestyle do see prison as an easy fix for petty crimes and I know a few who have been in and out of prison, they all say it really is the easy life - you can just stay in bed all day if you want or head down to the gym! all you have to do is not stab someone!
Military service would do these kind of people a whole lot of good - it gives them something to aim for, somewhere where they are needed - a characteristic that has been denied of them by the academics.

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CSM whose attitude is as hard as his boots which might make contact with their behinds and there aint a gang of pals to help him overcome the CSM.

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As I wrote earlier ,I am in agreement with some type of National Service,though it will not happen.We would be accused of infringing their inaliable rights;in dictating how they have to behave on a day to day basis.
When I first began working,one of the blokes there was an ex RSM (ww2 vintage.)He didn't need to demand respect one look from him was enough! Respect is an alien concept to many young people they have never been taught the talent.

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We mustn't forget that it isn't just some of the young people who have grown to show a lack of respect. We already have had a very interesting thread on here about grumpy old people who show no one any respect, regardless of age. Pushing in at the Post Office, and telling everyone off who dares to repremand them being just one example.

Respect should be earned, not taken as a right just because someone has lived longer than anyone else.

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completely agree garinda

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Oh yes we have all met the older delinquent;who lacks all manners or respect for others.This makes me worry,for they were brought up in an age that did teach respect...... What of the wastrels in circulation nowadays?
Will they like the born again Christian,belatedly see the light?

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That's why I fear it just isn't the liberalisation of the sixties that is to blame. Like I said earlier, we as a nation seemed to have changed.

Self first and ****** everyone else, so to speak.

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Though I detest violence unless absolutely nessesery maybe they could be lined up and all floged with a cat o nine tales either that or when they are in the cells the police can give them a mataress beating. Boy they hurt and there are no marks. :o

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I agree with that rindy, thats the role reversal you see, your at a stalemate now, both are demanding respect, but reluctant to give it because the other won't give it and both think they desserve it. There should be a mutual respect but it's not been made clear who's in charge so there's also a constant fight for control, one saying do it, the other saying shan't, try and make me. As I've said, discipline should be in schools and at home, theres no popint blaming parents and giving parenting classes if they go to school and can do as they please, and have it reinforced by contradicting polocies that they're entitled to do so.
I'm 34 and it's a far cry from when i was at school, so it may have been started back then, may not have but ut's gone drastically tits up in the some time during the last 20 years.

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And as you say, it's not just youngsters that have got the impression that self self self is acceptable behavior, some of the oldies tink they desserve respect but give NON to others.

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It's Dawin's survival of the fittest versus altruism, with a bit of Thatcherism thrown in, that's made us all so selfish, in my ever so humble opinion.:D

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The only problem with this is that Darwins theory would not work for those who are as thick as the greenland ice sheet as it defeats the purpose. If the ice sheeters propigate then we we would be devolving not evolving. :confused:

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Without this turning into amateur philospher's corner, sadly the strongest aren't very often the most respectful.