The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

I was watching Time Team earlier this evening. Yes I know it's facile and superficial but it is a marginal improvement on Songs of Praise and You've Been Framed. Anyway, it started me thinking. Since Accrington is a Saxon place name and there is some circumstantial evidence to suggest that the roots of the area may go back even further, it occured to me to wonder what had happened to all the people who had died in the borough between then and now.

Clearly some of them ended up in Church Kirk and some of them ended up in Altham, but in either case there are no grave markers that date back before the civil war. It is as though the hundreds of dead of the period 700ad to 1650-ish have just disappeared. Even if people died at the miserly rate of one per year that still represents 950 burials.
To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever mentioned coming across late saxon, norman or medieval burials in their gardens while they were digging the foundations for their conservatory.

So, where are they?

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

Where the graves marked back then?, were they reused?
Time team might be facile and superficial but it got you thinking and I certainly would be very pleased if they visited my area,as I'm sure you would if they were in accy. that is unless they decided to dig up your pitch.

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Sorry A-B i know it won't be medieval but I remember a very old graveyard on Hyndburn Rd were Homebase is now. Don't know old the graves were though, I was only tiny when we used to pass it on the way to my Grandparents.

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so they put homebase on the grave yard?, is homebase a busy store or is it always dead in there

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Presumably there would have been a burial site somewhere on the Dunkenhalgh estate. Anybody got one of those geophys gismos we could play with?

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Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

Nice one A-B. I’m going to come back to this subject because it’s such a worth point of discussion for those who care sufficiently of there past. It not just the graves of those lost to history, but our own families’ grave that have been lost.

That said it’s difficult enough finding the grave of our own, let alone those of centuries back. First place to start is manorial records and old maps of the areas of interest, folk lore will play its part as will many false leads that draw us in many wrong directions.

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

(sp?) <what does that mean, i keep seeing it in forums?

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

It means I'm not sure how to spell that and if anybody else knows please will they tell me. :D

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:) Thanks for that Willow. It's funny how you curiously remember little things like that.

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Yes, Willow I remember seeing about the Macpelah graveyard in some old books about Accrington......they were from about 1860ish......and there was a more recent one with photographs in it.

Wasn't there a graveyard down Union Street too.......just by the side of what are now the Social Services offices.......I vaguely remember that building being some sort of Church.

There were also graves in front of the New Jerusalem Church too.......and I think by the Wesleyan Chapel......but I am sure none of them went back as far as A-B is asking.

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And A-B I would prefer to watch something like Time Team than some of the other dross that is currently being served up as entertainment......at least Time team has provoked this discussion.

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Hmm yes I remember this graveyard too, very daunting as a young child because everything (headstones etc) were ancient, very derelict and in such a bad state of repair! (I wish they were still there as I'm currently trying to do my family tree and now stuck!) I seem to remember that when the foundations were dug for the fore mentioned store that remains had been found (such an uproar ensued) they are now buried in Accrington Cemetary.

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Your spelling is spot on, Willow.

As far as I am aware the Macpelah graveyard, though situated in "Old" Accrington did not date back much beyond the middle to early 19th Century, though I could be wrong.

The practice of cremation fell out of use with the advent of Christianity and its doctrine of the resurrection of the body as well as the soul.

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

No I can't remember any uproar. I think it might have been about the time that we were having some alterations to the house and the builder went and bought a long sidestone from a grave to use as a lintel for a window that was being put in......I remember being upset about it at the time......it had someone's name on it and I felt it was disrespectful......but they used it anyway.....my hubby thought I was being over sensitive.

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You tell us Peter after all you have all the insider information!:)

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Errrm, according to my recollection, I used to play around there when I was little, the graveyard lay between Hyndburn Road and the river Hyndburn. Consequently it is now covered by the carpark, not the building which is mainly situated over the two old gasometers which stood behind the graveyard.

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In the "Stink"??? Euuurrrgh! I thought that baptism was supposed to be a cleansing ritual.

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Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

I recall reading that most church yards were cleared in the 1850s when the Victorians went on a rebuilding drive, there was also a growing shortage of space so many old stones and grave residents where moved on to take residents burial pits or crypts. Many of the new churches of that era will have been lost over the years either to new uses or cleared. What we need to look for are the old church grounds that disappeared when the towns began to out grow there common boundaries after the industrial revolution.

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oh, well thanks for that, simple when you know.

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You do realise that the government isn't putting anymore land aside for cemetarys that are nearly full don't you, that will mean re-use of existing plots

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I remember in my exploring days of my youth am old graveyard at the end of Hope St in Gt Harwood. By the wall on the left, there is an old iron gravestone. Back then I remember it was just about legible & know it dated back to 1600s. Whether it is still there or even legible now is another thing cos I dont think the place has been tended for years now.

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

will try to get down there soon to have a look for you willow

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Well I had a little walk down and it's really overgrown now. Took some trekking through, but to be honest I found it more interesting than I thought it would be. I took some pics that may be of interest to look at and yes I found the iron gravestone (took me a while :rolleyes: ) unfortunately you can no longer read anything on it as you can probably see yourself from the pics.
pic 3 - was prob the oldest legible one I found, and pics 4, 5 & 6 are of the iron one, is that the one you were talking about big al??

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Isnt the internet a wonderful thing?

Within minutes of seeing harwood red's photo of the cast iron gravemarker I was able to identify the manufacturer from an identical model located in the grounds of Holy Trinity Church in Bosham, West Sussex.

The manufacturer is Messers Ritchie, Watson and Gow of The Etna Foundry, Lily Bank Road, Eglinton Toll, Glasgow. they operated from 1854 to 1964 and specialised in gravemarkers. It may be that the inscription is actually lower down on the marker, below the grass, or may even be buried.

Incidentally, James Bateman opened an Iron Foundry in Water Street, Manchester, in 1782, which he named The Etna Foundry. Although in his opening announcement, published in the Manchester Mercury, he lists a bewhildering array of products, he makes no mention of manufacturing gravemarkers.

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I would think that very old burials would long since have crumbled to dust. It takes time, but several hundred years should do it. It's only in certain conditions (peat bogs, embalming, etc) that anything survives. We probably walk over hundreds of ancestors every day.

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Probably wrong, but could have sworn this graveyard was on the left going out of town from the roundabout, and would be opposite the car park. Willing to stand corrected of course.

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Memory can play strange tricks on even the best of us. Happily, we have maps as an aide memoire, so to speak.

This one is of Accrington in 1898 and shows the layout of buildings along Hyndburn Road, shown in pink, the River is shown in blue and the graveyard is shown in green. Accrington town centre is to the right, Blackburn Road is beyond the bottom and Church is to the left. As you can see the buildings to the left as you head out of town towards Church were occupied by the town's Abbatoir, (Ahh happy saturday morning memories of that place)the spot is now occupied by Macdonalds.

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Can't argue with that Bob .. still .. wasn't another one further up was there ?? :)

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Two things that might help. First, spray small amounts of water from the direction of the light until it the inscription begins to show. Or go to the local studies library and look up the inscription in the book of burials for that particular burial ground.

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Would be exciting though as per original thread if something could be found. Would, skeletons apart, surely some evidence not have been found when we sunk the pits locally, understand that Huncoat is one of the oldest parts around here.

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I would have thought that some parts of Accrington and her sister townships would be quite scary to the living when you compare what’s been done to the landscape we live in and within the subterranean world that’s beneath your feet.

Hundreds of tunnels and shafts traverse the underworld; some possibly go back beyond the Romans and the earth certainly moves for some. Anyone remember the cave on Ormrod Street in the late 60s or early 70s. Things like this must have occurred hundreds of time over the centuries.

Our landscape is also scared by surface mining, clay use for Nori, local quarrying and the come, and going of the Railways. Land clearance may also have occurred due to the Activities of the church itself, and not least at the time of the Abbey that once stood within our boundaries.

All of this and more will have had an affect on the graves of our Ancestors. Its what we do to establish what’s left that is of importance now.

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

Yes you are quite right Bob...I was talking to somebody this morning about the cemetery and he said they used to put sheep in the graveyard to graze whilst waiting to go into the abattoir across the road. As your map indicates he was wrong. Or maybe in later years this did happen? Anybody know?

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Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

I did try to look below the grass line and could find nothing, but then felt like I was being disrespectful if I went any further. Plus I had kids sat on the wall telling the friends on the ground everything I was doing!!!

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Yes seemed rather ironic to me too! But it happened and I've got this from a very reliable source. All marbles intact!....Can't find a smilie anywhere but it was meant to be a big grin! Cheers!

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This is in reply to Willow The Wisp! Lost it somewhere along the line!:rolleyes:

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Hundreds of tunnels and shafts traverse the underworld; some possibly go back beyond the Romans and the earth certainly moves for some. Anyone remember the cave on Ormrod Street in the late 60s or early 70s. Things like this must have occurred hundreds of time over the centuries.

All of this and more will have had an affect on the graves of our Ancestors. Its what we do to establish what’s left that is of importance now.[/quote]
Talking of tunnels, there used to be one that ran from the Black Bull pub (now the entrance to Arndale car park) up to the Police station, as in the old days it was used to take prisoners to court.

I also remember the grave yard opposite what is McDonalds now but we used to call it Broughtons. It was very unkempt and kids used to play in it.

Re: The riddle of the missing bodies.
 

I seem to remember loads of church yards around accy.

I can remember the lad that lived at Bottoms up Green Howarth found a Skull in the field opposite the School. We played us it for about tem minutes before taking it to Miss Hoyle who made us put it back.

I seem to remember a policeman in a moggy coming up from ossy and declaring it to have been ploughed up at sometime in the past and gone unnoticed. But I didn’t think that any burials had taken place at Green Howarth and the Church/School only dates from the mid 30s

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I wonder why it was named Macpelah? It doesn't sound like a word native to round here.

We were nattering about this the other night ...... wasn't there another old cemetry between the petrol station and The Swan? I think it became The Swans car park?

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Yes I do believe there was.....I'd forgotten about that one.

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What an intersting thread.
I remember the ones at The Swan pub. They found some lead lined coffins there.

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The grave yard between the Swan and the Petrol Station belonged to the New Jerusalem Church which was demolished around the same time that Eastgate was laid out.

In reply to Doug's remenisences about Green Haworth; I have looked at the 1860 map and the 1898 map for the area and there is no sign of any designated burial ground anywhere in Green Haworth. Which is a little puzzling. Apart from a badly concealed murder or a genuine case of "meet the ancestors" the only other possibility appears to be that it had been dumped there from somewhere else. From the end of the War to the eighties, Victorian cemeteries fell into rapid decline and a great many family vaults were desecrated and remains were often taken as ghoulish trophies. Perhaps this may be the most likley, if mundane, explanation. It would also explain why the police did not conduct a more thorough investigation.

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Why Macpelah?

Not surprisingly the name comes from the Old Testament.

It is the name given to the field and cave purchased by Abraham for a family tomb. Sarah was first buried there, Genesis 23:1-20; and afterwards Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, with Rebekah, Leah, etc., Genesis 49:30 50:13.

A rather fitting name for a graveyard I should say.

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Aaahhhh! Thanks A-b ..... yes it makes sense now.

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Cheers A-B. I seem to remember that a bloke was killed and beheaded many years before just before School Lane. Apparently if my memory serves me right he had raced up from the Red Lion on his motorbike and skidded on loose earth some distance from the end of School Lane. He was thrown over the handlebars and had fallen head long into the road; unfortunately his head was hit by the front wheel which had caught him between the mud guard, forks and tyre decapitating him. His head was never found at the time of the accident.

The skull that was found that afternoon was green and had been exposed to the air and elements for some considerable time, there was no sign of an helmet, although one would imagine that it would have been made of leather so would have degraded by that time. I seem to think that the skull was put back into the field where it was found; this was thirty eight years ago. Perhaps its still there somewhere in the top corner of the field side of the wall and School Lane…………