Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

The Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill has now completed its committee stages. No problem?

This Bill, if made law, will empower any minister by order to make provisions amending, repealing or replacing any legislation, primary or secondary, for any purpose.

This would NOT have to be voted on by a full session of the House.

This means that laws could be made, changed or repealed without full scrutiny and without proper debate or democratic process.

To give one example in theory an unpopular Government could extend its life beyond the five year maximum now allowed.

Where does that leave us? - democracy or dictatorship?

Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

sounds like dictatorship.to me..

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Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

Dictatorship could be fun...:)
a nice change :confused:

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This Bill really scares me. The best of it is, this government may be in power but what they fail to realise is that the majority of the people DID NOT vote for them. They say they will only change inconsequential laws....the 'red tape' laws.... but already there are murmurs around Whitehall that if the Bill goes through then they will make ID cards compulsory......the ID cards were thrown out by the Lords as they felt that they should be voluntary....and anyone who needed a passport ought not to be forced into getting one of these wretched ID cards. This Government is corrupt and I do not trust it as far as I could throw it. If the Bill goes through then we won't have anything like a democracy.

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I'm just surprised nobody in the media seems to have kicked up a fuss about it. As I see it this is a HUGE thing which could let the government do whatever they please without any form of opposition... :(

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You are both spot on with those observations....it scares the bejasus out of me......makes me want to emigrate before the brown stuff hits the fan.

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Revolution.........weather permitting.:D

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But this government went to war to rid a country of dictatorship and iintroduce democracy. By FORCE. What is democratic about that.

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A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of Government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that Democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a Dictatorship.(Written by Professor Alexander Fraser Tytler, nearly two centuries ago.)

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I'm not surprised...it's not news - everyone knows the democracy is corrupt in this country; the only HUGE things in politics according to the media are minster's sex scandals and/or divorces...what a sad state of affairs :(

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Cash for peerages.......Ministers saying they don't know what their other half has been doing (again, cash orientated......)The PM's wife doing lecture tours...supposedly to help sick children but pocketing more money for herself than the charity gets. I always thought that Labour was about helping the working classes to get out of the mud......New Labour seems to be rolling around in it and revelling. Politics stinks......no politician ever comes out of politics poor.

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I wonder how those politicians round here dining at silver service would take to paying for their frozen food because their meals on wheels has stopped...

Every politician is as self centered as the day is long, we all knew that. This latest power crazy motion is no surprise

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i have always voted labour,,but now i realy cant see the woods for trees ..it scares the pants off me now... they will have to come up with some good explanation for me voting for them next time...:eek: :eek: :eek:

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Frightening but not surprising :mad:

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We keep saying President Blair and if this mushrooms the Mayamar Republic will be a lot more democratic than us. There is a film out Friday that shows what could happen if this happens and the possible reaction of people. Forgot its name though it is on the adverts enough. :o

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There was a thread on the same subject a couple of weeks ago and it ended up just like this one - a series of posts all agreeing with each other. Why will no Labour party members come on here and defend their government's actions? Gayle tells us she doesn't feel qualified to defend national policies. Presumably, Graham Jones feels the same way. So why doesn't Greg Pope make an appearance to discuss government policies? The subject of this thread would make a good start!

Equally, perhaps Conservative and Lib Dem members could explain why their parties aren't kicking up a fuss about this extremely serious issue which could have far-reaching consequences for the future of democracy in this country.

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Greg Pope aint brave enough and the other parties proberly see it as an advantage if they get in. We put the MP's in the house and we can take them out. Seems to mee they are running scared and see this action as a way to avoid the resposibility we give them to represent our intrests.

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dictorships work...

sadam hussain had his country in order and look at the mess its in now hes gone

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We already have a dictatorship in all but name.

You get a democracy back WillowTheWisp by a revolution, a bloody one if necessary.

George Orwell got it dead right apart from the year. He was about fifty years too early.

Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

new names for labour leadership -

adolf blair

tony hussain

fuhrer

anymore .....?

even thatcher didnt have the nerve to pull half the crap tony blair has and that is saying somthing

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Tony Kehmer Rouge Blair
Gordon Pol Pot Brown
Joh Pinochet Prescot

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oo this is like the credits for the simpsons' halloween special......

Gordon 'Himmler with a belly' Brown
:D

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...and so another potentially interesting thread comes stuttering to a halt because Labour party members don't have the bottle to defend the government they support. Wimps!

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Don't say that you are surprised by their lack of backbone Wynonie.......!

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The current government are big on words but miniscule on action.....with them everything is smoke and mirrors.

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I'm sorry to keep "labouring" the point, but I am surprised that local Labour party members will not publicly support the policies of the government they campaigned for.

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It is rather strange that local politicans of both sides seem more than happy to use the letters page of the Observer to labour their point, but are too afraid to do so here.

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Maybe once a week is all they can manage ;)

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After debating all week wether they can or not. :eek:

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No-one's ducking the issue. I have been mowed out at work this week [I need to work believe it or not!]. Until I read this thread I didn't even know about this bill, as I suspect other board members didn't either.

I think we are becoming an intolerant society. Normally people who have a grievance put it in the post and offer a written and informed position. I think that's right and fair.

Sometimes it feels like the quantity of paper given to read as a Councillor probably requires a hectare of Brazilaian rainforest a week. So come on fair play, give me a chance as I have a family to look after as well as work.

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Its not intollerence its the joys of modern technology that makes it easier to be informed on whats happening.

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Most board members would know about it as Cyfr started a thread on it about three weeks ago. However, now that you are aware of it, perhaps you could give us your opinion?

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Right, i'll put it on the to do list. Any chance of you coming around to my house and helping clear the backlog of other issues seeing as you have time and are keen???

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If you can't cope with the commitment to your people you could always stand down and let someone take over who can manage.

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For crying out loud! I'm only asking for your opinion on a topical issue of the day. Is it so flippin' difficult?

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Yep it is. You can never get a staight answer from a politition. They need to cosult their collegues PA guru's the head office and a lawyer,

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As I have stated before I am not going in to politics to debate national issues, I am doing it because I want to make an impact locally and I want to help this area and this area alone. I do not really feel qualified to debate on national issues.

However, the one thing that no one ever calls me is 'a wimp' so here goes.

I have read the bill and suggest that everyone does the same

http://www.publications.parliament.u...n/06111x--.htm

When you sift through the bulk of it there is very little that has changed from the Regulatory Reform Act 2001, which is already in place. The bill is 'in theory' giving the power to use common sense to the individual MPs without having to go through all the red tape to get a comma or a full stop changed in an existing law. If you read the restrictions there is very little that they can actually do on their own and there are provisions in place to ensure the protection of the people and of current freedoms.

If it is used properly it could ensure that common sense takes over and MPs use their initiative wisely. However, and I know this is the bit where you'll all shout at me, we have to be concerned that it is used for power and personal gain. The alternatives are that every single teeny tiny fraction of every law is continually debated which clogs up the government and MPs from actually doing any good or that we allow MPs to use a certain amount of initiative.

I can see the benefits of it as it will reduce the number of tiny issues that are dealt with in parliament and give government departments the right to do their job. Surely that's what we elected the MPs for in the first place?

I can understand your concerns as I have them to - would we lose all our rights and freedoms and I personally would like to see more amendments made to the bill before it goes through that protect us. However, on the whole I think it could be a good thing.

So there you have it - I'm more or less in favour of it but it needs a couple of tweaks for me to be completely happy with it. And that's why I stick to commenting on pot holes on Union Road or dog poop near the park!

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So this is all fat and blubber with little real meat. Sifting through politic claptrap and cow pats aint my strong point so will have to take the word of those who managed to trim the junk.

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The bill gives ministers the power to amend existing legislation without recourse to full parliamentary scrutiny. To me that's an assault on democracy.

However, the key phrase in Gayle's post is, "if it is used properly it could ensure that common sense takes over and MPs use their initiative wisely." Can we be sure that it will be used properly and words like "common sense" and "wisely" are words that do not apply to the vast majority of current politicians, as far as I'm concerned!

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Good point Wynonie:D also to point out that common sence is generally individual exp based, cos someone elses common sence may not be they same as others in opinion as the reason we have rules & regs spelled out quite literally as legally the use of common sence is questionable:rolleyes:

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Commen Sences Is Not A Requirement Of A Politition Just Blind Obedience To Thewhips And Leaders.

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Well you asked my opinion and that's what I think - if it's used wisely it could save thousands of pounds of parliamentary costs - I did expect that response because of course 'if' is a very big word in this sort of instance.

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...and that's the be all and end all with New Labour, isn't it? A government that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Of course it will save money in parliamentary costs - after all, ministers will be able to whisk amends to legislation right through without all those tiresome debates, late-night sittings and awkward questions in the House. But will British democracy - already something of a poor, sickly creature - be all the more impoverished for it?

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well labour have to pay back that £14 million from the general election campaign somehow:rolleyes:

Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

If someone lends me some money the implication is that I have to repay the loan and if I cannot then I am bankrupt.

If the Labour Party has a debt of some $14m I cannot see how they can pay it back. So doesn’t that make them technically bankrupt? The same goes for the Tories.

A business or organisation that is bankrupt cannot continue operating. So why are the two political parties able to stay in business as it were?

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You see, and I'm not being funny here, this is why I didn't want to get drawn on national politics. I am doing what I'm doing because of local politics and here in Hyndburn we have a situation where the Conservatives have put us in debt and where it is Labour that has positive solutions to get us out of it.

Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

I haven't lived in Accy since 1987, so I know very little about the local political scene and would not presume to comment on it. I was asking you in your capacity as an ordinary member of the Labour party what you thought of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill. You said you thought it was a good thing if used sensibly, one of the plus points being that it would save money. I don't agree with you because I think it's far too open to abuse by unscrupulous politicians and I don't think that's worth saving money for. It's as simple as that.

What's the big deal about commenting on national political issues anyway? Do your opinions end at the borough boundary,,,or do you think that by defending unpopular national policies you'll lose potential votes?

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I just don't think it's particularly relevant and could cloud the issue. I'm standing for local council which means that I'm putting myself up to be accountable for local issues. By bringing national issues into the equation you're bringing unecessary and irrelevant issues into it.

My opinion on national issues is as important as yours or the next persons but they have absolutely no impact on any initiatives or any good that I could do locally. So it's not a case of defending or arguing against any national policies I just don't think they should come into it in a local election.

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So because you're standing in a local election. you must never ever comment on national political issues? Do you think that the local electorate are so stupid that they can't differentiate between local and national issues? It seems to me that you're grossly underestimating the people you're hoping to represent!

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No, I don't think that at all but right at the moment I need to focus on local issues and I don't think that my stance on national issues makes the blindest bit of difference to the local election.

For instance - right here right now the local Labour party is pushing for Community Wardens, that's what's important and that's what really matters to people in this area. If you bring the national policy of the Regulatory Reform Bill into the equation it is completely irrelevant at this point in time because even if I get elected I won't have any influence over it.

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I'm not asking you your views on national issues as a prospective councillor, I'm asking you as a member of Accyweb and an ordinary rank-and-file member of the Labour party. One of the reasons I was asking was that I've read reports that many other grassroots party members seem unhappy with the bill, although you obviously don't share their misgivings.

As for bringing the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill "into the equation" on the subject of Community Wardens, who's doing that? They are completely separate issues a million miles apart and people have the sense to realise that!

Have the New Labour spin doctors issued some sort of diktat that all prospective councillors must not express any opinions, apart from those concerned with local council matters? It certainly seems that way!

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No not at all but I just don't know enough about some national issues to comment. I made a point of reading the bill today because someone had called me a wimp for not replying, so I replied.

I do have their misgivings and I thought I'd said that. I agreed with the bill in principle but I have misgivings about the potential misuse of it.

I know the Community Wardens and the Reform bill are unconnected, the point I was making was that I know enough about one subject to comment on it (the local one) but I don't know enough about the bill (the national one).

Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

You said you were more or less in favour of it, but that it needed a couple of tweaks. That hardly seems the same as having misgivings over it.

Thanks for at least giving us the benefit of your view on the bill, anyway.

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In fact the Commons procedure committee have now stated that the bill is too widely drawn and open to abuse and that there are not "sufficient restrictions on the misuse of those powers".

The simple meaning? It could be "Goodbye Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus, the Parliament Act - and, if misused, Goodnight and Goodbye Democracy".

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Neil, grow up mate. I represent people at local level and thats where my efforts go. If your lot, that bunch of incompetents (the Tories) weren't making such a balls up of Hyndburn then there would be less work. So don't come on here trying to make a personal attack look like a discussion.

This isn't the anti-Labour party site but I must admit, you and one or two others are making a good effort at it making it so.

And on a personal note I am having difficulties with my gran, she's 93. You choose, go up and make her tea or debate every national issue you want to whinge about. You sem to have no respect for others at all.

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I have said once. I have no idea and have little intenton right now to find out. Obviously your having great difficulty realising what a mess Hyndburn is in.

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And you're having great difficulty in understanding why this site is taking on the appearance of an anti-Labour party site. It's because when we criticise the present Labour government, hardly anyone ever comes on here to defend or explain their actions.

If you don't have time because of other commitments, then fair enough. But don't complain about anti-Labour bias, if no one is going to fight the Government's corner!

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You are so easy to wind up. Chill out man. It makes no odds to me which party you are in at all. A piece of advise to you, if you want to carry on in politics learn to ignore comments made by people just trying to get a response from you like I did above.

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That is an unfair question to ask then. Anything and everything Gayle says on here could effect her chances of winning the election. I am glad to see she answered you very carefully.

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I have just realised one good point about having a Labour Government and a Tory Council. We can always slag one or the other off when we all moan about what is wrong with the world.
I am personnally quite keen on the idea of proportional representation. So the whole country is controlled by the same political party. Yes I know there are problems with the idea but at least you know who is making the mistakes both locally and nationally.

Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

Hi

As a number of posters said that not many people defend the Government I thought I'd have a go - especially as someone said I was too scared to!

The Legislative & Regulatory Reform Bill is intended to reduce burdensome regulations. We are not intending to abolish Magna Carta, habeus corpus, or usher in a dictatorship. In any event, this Bill is only part way through its parliamentary progress. I'm sure it will be improved by amendments from both the Government and the opposition.

Greg

Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

It's all very well saying you're not INTENDING to do those things but, as far as I understand it, the bill means that you (or any subsequent government) could do.

However, if my "wimp" remark has pushed you into making your first ever appearance on here, my work has not been in vain.

Hopefully, this will be the first of many posts defending and explaining your Government's actions.

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I agree. However, the main problem is that very little legislation that is increasingly applied originates in the Palace of Westminster; most of it comes from our chums in Brussels, in the form of the ominous sounding"Directive".

Still, I suppose with our rump parliament there is still a bit of work to be done. I have recently heard that it is possible for unelected individuals to influence the course of a bill through its parliamentary progress by sending off some dosh. Apparently, you eventually get it back (with interest) but you also get a nice red cloak, a bauble and a seat in the House of Lords, plus a few hundred quid a day in expenses just for turning up. You don't even have to do 'owt; just stay in the bar all day, if you want.

I do believe that the title of "Earl of Accrington" is available. Can you advise me how much this will cost, and whether I should send the cheque to Tony, Cherie or Gordon? I can't wait to meet up with you for a pint in Annie's bar (Although I don't expect her real ales to be anywhere near as good as Staggers's)

Cheers

T

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Councillor Pope once on this web took great pleasure in letting us know that he was classed as the 16th most left-wing person in the country, I think it was 16th, apologies if he is higher up the list. With avowed politics of that sort, I am afraid to say that I have no faith whatsoever in the idea that he and his ilk would not use such a legislative measure to further their political ends. Democracy and totalitarian politics don't mix.

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Nice to see our Labour MP, a Labour councillor, and a prospective Labour councillor, respond to questions posed on here.

It's more than any Conservative offical ever has, even though we know Peter Britcliffe reads it, because he's quoted comments from it in his smoking diary in the Observer.

We can live in hope that they will come out of the woodwork, and may even be brave enough to join, or even post.;)

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If PB cameout of the woodwork he would be scared of getting a virtual world spit roasting.

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I've bad news for Tealeaf - you won't be able to get a pint of anything in Annie's Bar for much longer as I think it's scheduled for closure. You're welcome in the Commons other famous bar, the Strangers Bar though! And I don't think you've much chance of buying yourself the title Earl of Accrington after the news of the last few days. Seriously, I think all politicians and parties come out of this funding fiasco badly.

Pendy says that I claimed to be the 16th most left-wing person in the country - this is news to me! I'm not sure I'm the 16th most left-wing person on my corridor in the Commons (although it is a long corridor:) ).

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Although the Labour MP and the prospective Labour councillor made contributions to the discussion, I didn't notice much intelligent comment from the Labour councillor. However, I agree that there has been a deafening silence from the Tories. I wonder why?

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Although you asked for Labout party members to comment on national issues, we would also welcome offical Conservative members to comment on local issues implemented by our Conservative controlled council.

Come on, are you shy?

You know you really want to.

What are you afraid of?

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Answer they are scared of WH. :D

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They would be if they could've seen me at 9.35 last night, swearing at ceefax! :D

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You turned the air tory blue then. :D

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Oh yes indeed...talking of Tories, where are they all? Tell us why wonder boy Cameron isn't grilling the Dear Leader about this new bill.

Oh well, I suppose I'll have to do it again...

WIMPS! :D

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Apologies to Greg Pope, I got him mixed up with the other one, Graham Jones!! I vehemently deny senile decay.

I still think this Bill is extremely dangerous - particularly in the hands of extreme radicals of whatever party.

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I do not trust any politicians to tell us whether it is dark or daylight......let alone the truth about a bill that is so contentious. It scares me witless to think that if this bill is passed an unscrupulous party(maybe even the one that is currently in power) will have very little to hold it back, and we would be able to do precious little about it.

Re: Democracy or Dictatorship?
 

The sad fact is that we don't have democracy in Britain... we have a single-party system which has 2 faces with a 3rd (smaller) party being the only form of opposition. The government (whichever party) is controlled by specialist interest groups (aka corporate lobbies, NGO's) whose primary interest is capital gain for the wealthy and elites with all legislation designed dto subjugate the masses and perpetuate the consumer society.

The mainstream media is complicit in this by never actually effectively challenging powers-that-be (war in Iraq a case in point), in fact the mainstream media is OWNED by the system that they're 'supposed' to observe and criticise (every mainstream media source is owned by a corporate master thus making it impossible for them to truly attack the establishment they're a part of). The only other mainstream media outlet that is left to challenge government and corporate irresponsibility is of course the BBC, however the BBC is controlled by government through high-level contacts (witness the dismissal of Andrew Gilligan over his 'dodgy dossier' report which proved to be the truth). If you want to see many more examples of the media's involvement in establishment then visit the independently and voluntarily run www.medialens.org for constant updates and challenges to media disinformation and ommision.

There's also an enormous amount of evidence that points to a large portion of media editorial and journalistic staff being either directly employed by, or at least on the payroll of the intelligence services to propagate 'news' and direct attention away from the real issue - this isn't paranoid delusion, it's really beeen happening since the end of the second world war!!!

Other sources of our dirty dirty governments (past and present) tricks can be found through John Pilger's work over the past 30 years or so.