Britcliffe Monthly
 

Is anyone else thinking what I am thinking. Just read the Observer wardens story and Cllr Britcliffe has announced funding for 15 PCSO's the day he sacked the wardens.

Didn't he maintain all along that no funding could be found for the wardens and it was the governments fault?

The Government has just announced a huge increase in PCSO's numbers (who have no powers as yet). Why do we need any more payed for by Council Tax payers? Don't we pay Council Tax to the Council to pay for Council functions?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Who knows....

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I think that you'll find that pcso's do have power....

read on and learn a bit about them.....
http://www.policecommunitysupportoff...BB2/powers.php - there are quite a few laws on there applicable to pcso's that are not applicable to street wardens..

and the pcso's have nothing to do with the council as they are controlled by (in this case) lancashire constabulary..they are also paid by them and the training is also by the police which is why they have more power than the street wardens which will soon be defunct...

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Police community support officers (PCSOs) can be designated with the power to require the name and address of a person who they think has committed a relevant offence under paragraph 2 of Part 1, Schedule 4, Police Reform Act 2002 (PRA).

Chief officers also have discretion over which of the powers in Part 1 of Schedule 4 they want to bestow on their PCSOs. (same PRA powers as wardens have)

In order to reduce training requirements and ensure PCSOs’ efforts are focused on their core business, it is likely that only those powers necessary to meet the envisaged deployment will be bestowed. There is nothing in the legislation preventing PCSOs in the same force having different powers according to local needs (e.g. detention powers in one Division but not in another, as in the MET's Lambeth).

These powers listed on the above link seem identical to wardens powers so it may be PCSO's could have them but don't locally. Obviously the question then is who do you want to set policy. The Council and Area Councils with wardens, or the Council hand over descretion to the Police on what powers they think or can afford to bestow.

The police recently informed the councils scrutiny function that PCSO's have no powers and our local PCSO says he has no powers her in Hyndburn.

http://www.together.gov.uk/article.asp?aid=3481

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

In answer to that question Graham, no obviously I am not. I am thinking, good they managed to find the money. I am also wondering if this is a joint project with the Police and that is why funding was found. Maybe if you could ask Peter a couple of questions on the subject for us you could inform us why PCSO's and not Wardens. Although I suspect you know more than your letting on and are just trying to lead us to think your way.

By the way, I found the wardens an invaluble service to Hyndburn and am very sorry to see them go. I know a couple of them are members on here. I would just like to thank them for all the excellent work they did for Hyndburn and wish them well in the future. I also think that our Council was not fully aware of what the Wardens were doing for our Community, if they had been, I suspect they may still be here.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I think the PCSOs that funding is being 'found' for are the very same ones that central Government has pledged to each and every area in the UK. This is not something that is coming out of the Hyndburn Borough Council budget - see Greg's post on this in an earlier thread. Hyndburn will probably benefit from around an additional 30 PCSOs from this pot.

So, looks to me quite simple - it's no longer an 'either or' situation - you don't have to choose between Conservative's 6 PCSOs and Labour's 24 Community Wardens - YOU CAN HAVE THE LOT!

If you vote Labour on May 4th you'll get your 24 Community Wardens back like we promised PLUS you'll still get the 30 PCSOs pledged from Government.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I saw a female pcso stop a youth on a bike in the pedestrian area the day I was up, she told him to get off but he refused, She took his details despite all his mates telling him to walk away.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Gayle is right on this one and someone needs to pull Britcliffe up PDQ; PCSO's are an integral part of the police service. This is provided, in the case of Hyndburn, by the County and other than a minor consultative role, the borough has no say in operational police matters. Funding for the additional PCSO's comes from a combination of Whitehall and County, (taxes & rates) but has now't to do with Hyndburn. Once again, this clown of a council leader is claiming credit where no credit is due.

Graham is also right in stating that PCSO's have varying powers depending on the policy of the local force. When I leave my office here in London to get the bus back to my flat, I pass through the jurisdiction of three police forces within a walk of 500 yards- Met, City & BTP; the first appears to have a PCSO uniform of no more than that of a traffic warden with a reflective vest; the City PCSOs go further, wearing a stab-proof vest. Other than asking them for the time or directions though, both appear to do little.

However, the BTP PCSOs are fully tooled up with cuffs and sticks. I have seen them on several occaisions getting well stuck in and cracking heads alongside their warranted colleagues.
.

Some consistency on PCSO powers needs to be applied and I don't particularly care what title people have - constable, pcso or warden. The thing that matters is that we have boots on the street who are there to assist and when neccessary to arrest. It just seems a shame that some of the hyndburn ex-wardens are not given priority for the new PCSO positions.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

:not_ripe:

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Hi Neil,

The words you have typed above are words Peter has used several times about me. Not been sharing notes or LOGIN's have you?

I think you're right in suggesting it's part funding by the Council. The six PCSO's agreed are part funded by HBC (£67,000?) and the Police (??). I guess half the cost.

That was all before Gordon Browns budget annoucement of 10,000 extra PCSO's.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Are you accusing me of thinking like Peter? I could easily take offence at that, I could never be that sneaky ;)

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I think there are some very good points here Tealeaf. It seems that both PCSO's and Wardens get the same powers, training permitted. The wardens were trained to do most/nearly all of the PRA 2002 Schedule 4 powers. Are we retraining the newly recruited PCSO's? Why did Peter say the Council was providing 15 PCSO's in the OB. Surely thats 6 still part funded and 9 wholly by the government?

I agree, boots on the streets, answerable to local people is what we need. When Peter ditched the wardens what importance was boots on the streets then as it was suggested to cut the bloated Area Council bureacracy which would pay for 12. Peter rejected this.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

would i do that?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

If Labour take control of HBC in May, will you be removing the Area Councils totally as has been suggested? If so how do you intend to involve the local residents with local issues or is that not important to Labour?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

If Peter sneaks a peak at this he will get a chuckle at you 2. :o

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

My aim in life is to make others happy :)

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Area Councils will continue and evolve into more resident focused groups.

They cost £6,000 per meeting and the chair gets £170 per meeting fee. We will reduce the budget per meeting to around £800 with NO FEE for the chair.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Can they be as effective and will people still chair if there is no financial recompense?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I would still chair the meeting without the £170 - I don't think Councillors should claim all these expenses - it's part of the job. I think the basic compensation should be sufficient.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Ok you got me interested.
What is it that costs £6000?
How will you do it for £800?
How many Council Officers will be made redundant by making the savings?
The Chair gets £170. What do the other Councillors and Co-Optees get?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

What is it that costs £6000?
Staffing costs mainly. Somewhere in the region of £180,000 (last time I asked) plus add on expenses of rooms, other staff time. This produces 27 Area Council meetings. 9 Area Councils, 3 meetings per year each. Chairs get £500 per year for the 3 meetings. Other councillors get nothing (quite correctly). There are usually a couple of extra Area Councils a year so if we work on 30 meetings, £180,000. Thats £6,000 per meeting is staffing costs.

How will you do it for £800?
I need to check but roughly Labour will leave a much reduced budget to help arrange the current meetings with on the night help (tables chairs etc..) from wardens (who had begun doing that recently). £800 is the average from the revised budget and number of meetings.

How many Council Officers will be made redundant by making the savings?
I will check but most Area Council Staff.

The Chair gets £170. What do the other Councillors and Co-Optees get?
Nothing

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

That's interesting Graham. I wonder how many Area Council meetings Peter I'm-worth-every-penny Britcliffe Chairs? And what are the allowances for the other meetings that he chairs? Nice little earner, being leader of the council. At those rates it is little wonder that there is nowt left in the pot to pay for things that really need doing.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I am sure Graham will answer you but I would put my money on one. He chairs the Oswaldtwistle meeting. I don't see how he can chair any outside his own area.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I think Neil is right about the Area Council meetings, in that there are three Ossy Area Council meetings per year and it's supposed to switch between the three wards. Each ward is supposed to chair the meeting when it's in their ward so he does only chair it once a year.

Didn't we have a thread on here some time ago about Councillor expenses and who claimed what.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Thats not what I meant Gayle. The wondering around Ossy is a recent silly idea by the Area Council. They used to be always at the Civic Theatre. Who wants to sit on kiddie chairs at a school in Knuzden? Not me again thanks. If you noticed at the one in the church near the Co-Op, Peter was still chair and only passed over for some of the meeting. I wonder who got the £170 ;)

I meant that Peter will only sit on the Ossy Area Council meetings as Graham will only sit on his own ward's Area Council.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Oh, sorry, slightly misunderstood - yes pretty sure he'll only do Oswaldtwistle ones.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

The chair is nominated at the start of the year and gets £500 for the 3 meetings. However Peter won't get the alowance as chair because Council rules say you can only claim one extra special allowance (obviously he gets an extra allowance as leader).

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

So Peter chairs the meetings for free, what a nice public spirited chap ;).
Graham, does it state all this interesting allowance information and who claims what on the HBC website?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Wardens ? PCSOs ? Whatever happened to proper police personnel ? Surely after almost 10 years in office a LABOUR GOVERNMENT could at least give us proper front line services ? Plenty of funding for troops in Iraq but nowt for frightened, intimidated old dears in Accy. Friend Jones seems willing to make feeble excuses and offer platitudes, but no real criticism of his own Party, whose Government is the real culprit.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Ok Ralph you are obviously a Tory. Why not explain to all us Hyndburn voters what wonderful achievments the Conservative Local Council have made over the last few years and why we should vote them in again. Unless of course you would prefer to slag off all the opposition without being able to put forward a good argument for the Tories.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Will he or wont he? Comeon Ralph put your arguments for the present council up for debate. Or are you scared?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

The Labour Government has dramatically increased the number of police officers. We have one in Peel and his name is PC Pearson. We never had a local bobby under the Tories.

However good or bad the Government has done, Britain and Hyndburn has benefited. New health centres, vastly redced waiting lists, better medicines and treatments available. Stable economy, growth rates the envy of europe. £millions pumped in to Hyndburn. Nearly every school with upgraded facilities, smaller class sizes, better childcare facilities.. Minimum wage for poor people. I am sure Greg could carry on the things that seem easily forgotten but have reallly made a difference to a lot of people.

I know if I was a Tory in opposition, I would see it as my duty to challange the Goverment at every point, point out what hasnt been done (dentists, media, efficient use of public money, PFI, wealth gap, means testing, pensions, religion, war etc..). Thats democracy, you will always have two lists. The dogmatic see one list, the open minded two.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Everyone has this rose tinted view of bobbies on the beat and believe that the good old days were best when PC Bobby and and his mate used to patrol the streets and stop for a chat and a cup of tea with the neighbours. That was before the population explosion of the 60s and 70s and the influx of foreign labour. If the police were sat in someone's house having a cup of tea from morning till night they'd never get anything done.

So, life has moved on. We do have two very nice bobbies who work in Oswaldtwistle, PC Steve O'Boyle and his colleague who's name temporarily escapes me. They can be contacted easily and will come out to investigate any disturbance or crime - they are also very approachable if seen in the street. They cover a large area so they are mostly out and about in their car but they do stop and they do get to know people.

If the Community Wardens and PCSOs are brought in this presence on the streets would increase immensely and would be more consistent and frequent.


As for the war - don't forget that the Conservative MPs voted for it as well. Everyone blames it on Tony Blair and Labour but the only ones that actually opposed it were the Lib Dems. And the Conservatives took us into a few dubious conflicts as well.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

what a load of crap, have you read the papers lately ..?

13 thousand healthcare workers to loose their jobs

and as for hyndburn benefiting from been under a labour government accrington victoria hospital has now been reduced to barely been able to muster up a plaster to treat a scratched finger

the next time i have to wait over 1 hour to get my baby taken to hospital in blackburn i will be thinking of what labour has done for me

no need to mention dentists ime sure there are many members and viewers of this site sat here with tooth ache or tooth related problems waiting to be seen by a dentist , i also bet there are many people sat with so called TEMPORARY fillings in their mouths that have been there for many months also because they cant get a dentist to treat them and the emergency dentists only does patch up work/emergency work

please dont come here trying to tell us that we in hyndburn and the rest of britain is so much better of with health care under labour because it simply isnt true , statistics can be made to look good but its what the every day person actualy sees that convinces them somthing is getting better and i personaly dont see much happening

edit:

i would have a lot more respect for a labour candidate that spoke about how things truely are than a labour candidate that spouted tony blairs bull

like many labour voters i will continue to vote labour because its a case of better the devil you know rather than labour are doing a good job but the day will come when the lack of action and costant lies by the present govenment will not be tolerated and labour will be out , the torys found this out too late and people voted them out eventualy and if tony blair dosnt get his act together soon labour will be out as well

ps:

ime not too happy about the extra 5p your leader has put on petrol either but thats another topic altogether :)

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

So you think that Labour are not doing a good job of running the country but yet you will still vote for them. Sounds like sheep syndrome to me - voting for them because everyone else is. You will vote Labour even though by your own statement they constantly lie to you. Your comment also suggests that you do not think Labour are doing a good job. I don't know what selection criteria you use when voting but I think you should take a step back and decide on a new method.

You also blame Labour for the current NHS problems and rise in petrol prices.

I think the best bit is that you think Tony Blair talks bull****

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

lets face it neil no matter who is in charge they will balls it up even more and blame their predecessors

thats why i stick to voteing labour , although they mess up , lie and tax us to the hilt until their is a better option i dont see switching parties doing anything but putting a different set of incompitants in charge and besides if labour stay in charge there must come a time when they can no longer blame the torys for all the mess they fail to sort out :)

only last week it was all over the news how many voters were so fed up with the three main parties that they were preppared to vote for the BNP and they predicted that there would be an inrease in BNP seats which i find a lot more less appealing than what i do with my vote

anyway how i choose to or how i decide my vote isnt the issue i was merely pointing out how wrong it was to say hyndburn has benefited health care wise under a labour govenment because in my opinion it hasnt

have you tried getting a doctor out to an ill child recently , i have and was told to make my way to blackburn , luckily i had the taxi fare to do this as it was after the buses had stopped running but i can bet there are many families out there who cant afford the nearly £10 each way trip to take their child to a doctor in Blackburn at queens park hospital

if labour want to show that they are helping hyndburn how about putting some money back into accrington victoria hospital so that people in clayton,accrington,baxenden and osswaldtwistle have somewhere nearer to home to get treatment after 9pm

mind you it would be just as quick to get to accy victoria as it would be to get to queens park for people in ossy :rolleyes:

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I think that in the local elections you should vote for the person who YOU feel will do most for your OWN local area......National politics are a different ball game altogether.

What I find irritating about National politics is that the parties.....all of them...expend so much energy in name calling and trying to bring their fellow politicians into disrepute....and then they probably go to the bar and have a gin and tonic with one another. I wish the energy expended in name calling could be put to better use in solving the problems that this country has. Immigration.....Yob culture, Lawlessness and a judicial system that is risable.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

fair comment about the closure of accy victoria gregg but even after the closure of the maternity ward you could still be treated at accident and emergency any time of the night but now it is mainly for minor injuries and only up until 9pm

we hear all the time how money is been poured into the NHS but what people go off is what they can see happening around them and their own personal experiences of the NHS

i know there is a new medical center been built where broughtons used to be on church street but the understanding i have of that so far is that the doctors from peel house medical center are been moved there and it is also going to be some sort of clinic but i have not heard anything about what time it will be closing or what other facilities are going to be available

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Talking of NHS, which will soon be myth to future generations, but whats happening about the NHS dental crisis - some of us still without dental treatment more shockingly many children in the borough including mine :eek: & what about the messing about with GP surgeries & the confusion with all changes to appointments only - in my surgery im struggling to get a non emergency appointment for my son who needs a GP referral, told to ring after 8am - phone constantly engaged then when i do get through - no appointments left, they wont pre book me an appointment as they are taking daily appointments only even after explaining the reason im getting nowhere, is there any hardship making an appointment for another day after school or outside busy surgery appointments so my son can be referred to a neccessary nhs service!!! Apparently this is the norm with some GP surgeries locally.

I hope this should resolve in the next few years because my son will need a definate referral back to his consultant for a much needed operation then..... i dont want to have the same fiasco im having now.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I very nearly stood as a labour Councillor a few years ago and now I am glad I didn't as I couldn't just "explain" away the reason why school age children are going without NHS dental care. I would also struggle with the idea that Hyndburn is a safer place to live and work after having my store robbed over the weekend and feeling like my staff are defending the Royal Mint ;it's a dvd store for God's sake!

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

perhaps when people can actualy see changes been made opinions may change , i would say there is yet a lot of work to be done until labour can boast about how things are improved :)

maybe we will see the improvements sooner than we think as all this extra tax on petrol and cigrettes must be going somwhere :D

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Greg, I am sure that I don't need to point out to you that just throwing money at something does not make it work any better. I firmly believe the main problem with the NHS is the way it is managed from the top down - I think many of the staff are incompetent but that is because they are allowed to be by their superiors ( for want of a better word). Explain to me why consultants are allowed to use NHS hospitals to see private patients? They could be seeing NHS patients in that time and reduce waiting list's. I suspect they pay something to the hospital for the services used. I bet they don'y pay for some of their secretary's wages. I think that is poor management of hospital time and resources.

I have a little (probably long) example for you.
I had an appointment last wednesday with my consultant following an operation I had 12 months ago. The last time I saw him he wanted to see me in 4 weeks but due to appointments it ended up being 6 or 7. I walked into the room to find the wrong doctor sat in the chair. No explanation as to where my consultant was. He basicly asked me why I was there. I explained that after surgery, the results had been superb but the original problem had slowly started to return and, at my last appointent my medication had been changed as a trial. I told him that it was no better and possibly even worse than the original medication. At this he said he did not now what to do. He asked me if my consultant had said what he was going to do if I was no better and was he going to operate again. That is when I told him that I was very upset that I had wasted my time and taken time of work to go to hospital and waste the Doctors time and the Nurses time and the hospital resources to see a man who could do nothing without speaking to my consultant who had decided to take annual leave when he was supposed to be in clinic all day. I asked how many other people had wasted their time that day. The outcome of all this waste of NHS time and money as well as my time is that I have another appointment with my consultant on thursday morning. It will be rather interesting if my consultant is not there. After all his secretary thinks he will be so he can't be on leave still. I would be interested to know how many days annual leave a consultant gets, maybe somebody knows.

So throwing money at the NHS is not improving much. It is not making doctors and nurses wash their hands, although when I was in the doctors did and the nurses did not. All this money did not put my daughter in an isolation ward so she did not infect other poorly children when she was in hospital recently. Infact all this extra money did not even make anyone clean the floor when she was sick all over it.

Please explain to us Greg what THREE TIMES as much money has actually done to reduce MRSA in our hospitals and improve services in general. My mother in law recently had her operation cancelled because there was no bed for her. This was an operation booked months ago, how can that happen? You would not be impressed if you had your holiday cancelled because they had no plane to take you. We all know that no bed really means no staff. What has THREE TIMES as much money done to increase staffing levels?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Can I just point out that both Cllr Britcliffe and I are standing for local election. Whilst I think it's important that we discuss things like the NHS and dentists etc., I have to stress that even if elected I would have little or no influence over any of these issues.

I am standing for local issues in my local ward and I am worried about the confusion discussions over national issues have on the local elections.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Neil.....Having worked in the NHS, I can tell you that a lot of money has been wasted in trying to meet governments ever changing targets. They have continually promised the electorate things that they had no idea how to provide.....so managers were given the task of deciding how the provision of these services would be accomplished......you would just get used to one demand and then another one would follow swiftly on its heels......so instead of managing services, managers were playing catch up to manage targets.
Patients are not better cared for because of this political meddling...in fact in some cases patients with clinical needs were...shall we say 'neglected' so that targets could be met...bunions and tonsils treated instead of heart ops (OK that is a bit of a stark contrast - but you get my drift)?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Erm typical councellor remark! Gayle isn't national issues effecting our local issues????

We are talking:-

local GP's
Local Dentists
Local Hospitals
Local NHS

What we are discussing is a local issue isn't it???

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

sory gayle its my fault the NHS got dragged into this because Mr Jones claimed that hyndburn and britain are a lot better of medicaly under labour and i begged to differ on that claim

so realy its was his fault coz he mentioned it first :)


now with the ease i passed on the blame for that maybe i should be a polotitian :D

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Maybe you were thinking about standing for the wrong Party then Lindsay.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

It was Greg Pope who annoyed me by reminding us that Labour have tripled the money spent on the NHS for a slight improvment in performance - he forgot to mention that Labour have all but wiped NHS dentistry off the face on the earth.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I think the last time i had a dentist was when labour just got their second election term of office.........mmmmm then all of a sudden its all gone private:rolleyes:

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Quick somebody shoot me - I am turning into a political activist :D

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Is PB fighting the local NHS quango desk jockey's over this dentist mess or as he can afford private he aint bothered?

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

It's only local in the way that it's local to every person in the UK. Local council can not affect the policies on these issues as they are national ones.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

ok........................... :D

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Local council have a lot of influence on these issues - surely:rolleyes: or what are we voting for????

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I'm sorry but this is why there is endless confusion about the difference between local, county and national politics. Local councils do not decide the policy on the NHS or Dentistry within its area, or how the NHS is run within the area, these are national policy decisions.

In local elections you are voting for the person or party that you believe will do the most for your own small area.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Well, hun, so glad this has been said at last. As per our recent discussion, when you and Chris were painted green (only physically, not mentally), Chris reminded me that you should always vote for the personality, not the politics. I have always followed this policy, and sometimes voted for the candidate who did not hold my national political persuation. Reading this thread I was beginning to wonder and maybe withhold my vote this year altogether.

I am back on track now and will vote for the person whom I think will try their best to give Clayton the best imput. Cheers. !

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I don't think you should refuse expenses Gayle, its what gives the lesser earner the opportunity to stand for council, and not leave it to those who can afford it. Ok, probably some abuse with these monies, but overall would think an extreme minority. It is your right to accept expenses, so don't go setting any precedencies should you be elected.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Your right Neil. We don't need hysterical politics. It just runs our country down.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

That is a very good point Kate.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I used to work with a very odd man who lived in Brighton. When it came to elections, he would look at all the photographs of the candidates on the flyers, then decide who he would rather live next door too, and they would get his X.


I've just done the same thing, but instead it feels like I'm auditioning for players in The Phantom of the Opera!:eek: :D

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I thought you were voting for the one that feels best this time Gary ;)

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

Do you believe everything I say, even in drink?

I should become a politician, I must have an honest face.:)

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

I have heard it described many ways, honest was not one of them.

Re: Britcliffe Monthly
 

What ya mean???