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The Education System
The other day, I took a group of mums and toddlers to Gullivers World in Warrington.
It is normal practice for venues like this to "feed and water" the coach drivers and in this instance I received a voucher for £2-50 WOW!! :( Unfortunately, a meal (burger, chips and a small coke) cost £3-99 so I had to make up the difference. A girl in her late teens, perhaps 20? was serving and I gave her the voucher and waited for the request for additional money:cool: She KNEW that she should charge extra but was totally incapable of deducting £2-50 from £3-99:confused: Eventually, I decided to put her out of her misery by telling her that she was to charge me £1-49 and her smile went from ear to ear:D You should have seen her face just seconds later when I produced a £20-00 note :surprise: £18-51 I eventually told her. £19-51? she said delving into the till, (It must have been my southern accent) I was SO tempted to keep quiet - but I did correct her:rolleyes: Was it her fault? is she just totally useless at simple mental arithmetic? or have the Government of the last couple of decades left us with a bunch of young adults that are incapable of calculating the most simple of sums without getting out the calculator? Don't get me wrong, the youngsters on the Accyweb have shown that they have intelligence and can think for themselves so I am not making a blanket accusation regarding ALL young adults - but I bet there are more young people out there today that are just like this girl than ever there was in the past! B.T.W. I have an uncle who is in his 60's? who could barely write, but his education was badly disrupted by the war as he was an evacuee and he is now self-teaching English. (It's never too late) |
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That isn't that simple busman because of the 99, instead of the whole pound, 2.50 and 4. If your used to working with figures in those amounts, you don't even have to think, it's just there, but she isn't, the till normally does it. She obviously couldn't have been used to doing many voucher transactions.
I've just got up and come straight here with a cuppa, and I really had to concentrate on that. Do you ever get like that your mind can't concentrate, or you've got that much going on or in a rush/panic that you just can't focus on the most basic things. |
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Your comments illustrate my point perfectly Madhatter, you are literate, know far more than myself regards computers, probably got a few A Levels tucked away somewhere - - but struggle with simple maths that the older generation learnt at an early age. At school nowadays, it is important to come up with the correct answer to a Maths problem using any electronic device available where as in the 60's, it was more important to show on paper how you arrived at the answer. |
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:engsmil: Your quite correct the people who set the standards of todays
education system, did not receive anything like the teaching your uncle got. Thats why the poor girl was out of her depth trying to subtract, you often find this in a darts match the more experienced player does it for both players. One wonders what she would have answered if asked what the unknown factor was. :not_ripe: X Ianto. |
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Employers and even universities have complained about young people joining them and they couldn’t do simple arithmetic or basic spelling for that matter and could not compose a simple letter.
When I left Primary school in the late forties I and my class mates were competent at arithmetic. We had to contend with the imperial counting and measuring system not the easy metric system that we have today. Pounds, shillings and pence where 12 pence equalled one shilling and 20 shillings equalled one pound with the Guinea (1 pound & 1 shilling) thrown in for good measure. Then there were farthings (4 to a penny), halfpennies (2 to a penny), tanners (6 pence), bobs (1 shilling), florins (2 shillings), half crowns (2 shillings and 6 pence), crowns (5 shillings). In those days the US dollar was worth 5 shillings so we called the crown a dollar and half a crown half a dollar. There were inches, feet, yards, rods, poles, perches, chains, furlongs, miles and leagues and for measuring depth there were fathoms. OK! So we never used rods, poles, perches or chains, but we still had to learn them. 12 inches equalled 1 foot, 3 feet equalled 1 yard, 1760 yards equalled 1 mile and there were 8 miles to a league. A furlong was 220 yards and a chain 22 yards. We only knew about chains because that is the length of a cricket pitch. There are 6 feet to a fathom. We had to learn the multiplication tables up to and including the 12 times table off by heart and did so BEFORE joining a Secondary school of some sort. We were even doing long division and multiplication by then too. Today’s Metric system is so easy that there can be no excuse for an eleven year old not being competent with numbers. Why they are not has to be down to – in no particular order – the education system, the teachers, the pupils and the parents. We did have a calculator of a sort called Log Tables and Slide Rule and we used them both but not until we had mastered not just arithmetic but also mental arithmetic too. There is nothing wrong with kids using calculators but they should first learn the basics thoroughly. It is easy to hit the wrong key on a calculator without realising it, but when I do and look at the answer I know instinctively that something is wrong. |
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My 6 year old daughter is learning her multiplication tables at school so they do still do it.
I remember when I was at school and you used to get marks for showing how you'd worked out the answer even if you got the wrong answer - surely that system wasn't right either. I mean, I'd far rather have the correct change by someone using mechanical means than them saying to me that their long division looked good. I enjoyed maths and was fairly decent at it but I did wonder what value it had in the real world. I think where the system is failing children these days is in 'worldly' skills - i.e. banking (yes, maths but making relevant) and politics. |
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I wonder how many have used algebra or trig since they left school, the GCE maths was bassed mainly on these subjects as I recall, but I've never once needed either in 44 years. I believe that kids are allowed to take calculators into class nowadays, does't make for better general maths, but I agree with Gayle, I'd rather have the right change arrived at by way of a machine than the wrong change my working it out in some ones head.
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I don't think it's the Education System really. You get out what you put in. It goes back to the 'too scared to walk my own streets' thread, if people don't want to learn, and parents don't care, then there is only so much you can do to try and get people to learn. It comes to a point where teachers would be putting other people, who are willing to learn, at a disadvantage if they focus all their attention on the bad kids..
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I was useless at maths and never quite grasped algebra, trigonometry and any of the other needless rubbish which is never again used in everyday life (well, not by me anyway). What I was good at was adding, subtracting, multiplication and division..........basic stuff but useful. I worked in a chippy as a teenager, we didn't have an electric till or calculator. I was expected to be able to do the sums in my head and guess what? I could...
Unfortunately our GCE was based on the useless stuff so I failed it. O level Maths was a requirement of nurse training and despite failing I applied anyway. I was accepted because I had 2 science O levels, Chemistry and Biology. Even in my job, calculating drug dosages and feed amounts for prem babies, I never use the useless stuff only adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. In my opinion, all kids should have a good grasp of basic mental arithmetic. I know that many will think it's needless because of computers and calculators but at least I can confidently check my change and know when it's right.:D |
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Good for your 6 years old daughter Gayle. You can never be too young to learn multiplication tables although she will only need to go as far as the 10 times table as decimal is all the rage now.
We got marks for getting the right answer to a sum too Gayle but we got more marks if we showed how it were done but it had to be right first. If you had been around in the forties and fifties you would have marvelled at the shopkeepers as they totted up a list of prices in old money and look what they had to contend with. However the world progresses and machines help us in our lives so there is no reason why they shouldn’t be used. But what happens when the shop assistant punches a wrong amount? It is unlikely that the mistake would be spotted from the final total. So we have bar codes to take care of that problem but there are many shops that are not large enough to use barcodes and the price of each item bought is punched in individually. Machines do not make mistakes – people do and if a mistake is made would anyone know if their arithmetical skills are severely limited? I use a calculator for large numbers but if I do hit a wrong key I know from looking at the result that something is wrong. We would all like the right change jaysay but do we know what it is supposed to be before it is handed over. Of course we do, well many of us, because we can subtract the amount asked for from the amount handed over, in our heads. But only because we learned arithmetic to a competent standard. Two of the three parts of maths - geometry (which includes trigonometry) and algebra - are more for future engineers/scientists etc than the average person but still come in handy in later life. I have used them although not very often. Sadly it is the education system that is primarily at fault. Firstly pupils spend 5 hours less per week in lessons than they used to and secondly many teachers do not teach but hope that the pupils will learn what is being shown to them. Then there is the disruptive element that is more prevalent today than yesterday. Algebra and trig might be needless rubbish to you lettie but without it you wouldn’t be able to post your views on this forum. The inventors, engineers, designers and scientists that made the computer and Internet possible couldn’t have done so without the full range of maths. However you grasped the most important everyday subject – arithmetic - as your prowess in the chip shop clearly demonstrated. Had you learned your arithmetic using the old money I have no doubt that you could have handled that equally well. |
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When I first worked in a pub we had no automatic till and everything had to be added up mentally. I have to be honest and say that I don't think I could do it straight away now - it takes practice.
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...or it could've just been a thick bird :)
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She probably was shakermaker.
Busman i passed my maths exams by adding that penny on. I never learned my tables. my maths teacher saw how I did my adding up and went mad about it, his star pupil working out in such a bizare way. He must have gone away and thought about it, and thought how well I was doing that way, and realised it works for me because he started teaching the others that were strugling his way with my way. Maths was still my favourite subject, and I'll still work out things in my head if i can, even if i need to add a penny here and there. Only problem is that it takes longer than just knowing it, and its easy to get confused under pressure. Yes I've got some levels but Most of my knowledge is self learned. |
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My son, who is only 24 and my grandaughter 16 had to learn multiplication and as Gayle's daughter, sure still going on, just some people just don't grasp it. I still use Geometry working on the theory of Pythagoras to calculate the corner to corner length of table linen to help customers understand what it will look like and how much point drop there will be on their tables in the restaurant, so not wasted on me. |
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Perhaps you can be thankful that you went to school just before these same idiots put through a policy of teaching spelling "as it sounds" The poor sods that received that load of tripe will suffer for the rest of their lives:( As far as I am concerned, with good teaching, all but the few that do not have the ability should have a grasp of arithmetic and how it works before the age of 11, instead, we have kids that can text umpteen part-words a minute on their phones - - but tend to be brain dead when trying to hold figures in their head. |
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Compared to the old Imperial system of weights, measures and money, decimal is an absolute doddle.
When you got used to Logarithms they were easy but sadly inaccurate. As was the ordinary slide rule. There were large (and very expensive) scientific slide rules but even they were not absolutely accurate. People are different and some have a flair for one subject whilst struggling in others but all have a grasp of simple arithmetic or they would have but for the teaching methods. |
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When I left school in 75/76 and started work in a Butchers shop I had to work out the prices in my head as meat was asked for in various amounts of weight ie £1.76p per pound and asked for 3/4 of a pound =£1.32p.
Yes I too remember the Imperial money weights etc. When I first started on the buses we had the old TIM's (Ticket Issuing Machine) and cash bag over the shoulder and some of the TIM's had the old money on the dial with the 11d blocked off. Now adays I work with people who have been taught both ways and sometimes forget that the younger staff are only used to metric and when I say turn left in 300yds get a look of shock so then have to quickly turn it into 250mtr LOL I still can't get used to the use of kilometers and meters but guess I'll have to as like Lettie I will have to work out childs weight, age for dose of drugs and power of equipment when required. But I still work out how much change I will get back and sometimes cause confusion by offering the odd pence to make MY change eaiser to put in MY pocket ie cost £5.15 offer a £10 note and the 15p (so I get a five pound note!!) sometimes the look on their face is brill (ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh wot do i do now????) as the till has been rung up and shows change as £4.85. It has to come down to the way people react to the change of system of teaching but I agree that they need the basic skills of Adding and Subtracting so that they can think on their feet and NOT get robbed when they go shopping. Yes it does come with experence and I'm not the best of spellers but I am getting better and my keyborad skills are getting better thanks to Accyweb LOL |
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I was an apprentice electrician working for a firm in Preston but out on a contract in Clitheroe when the money system changed over as an apprentice it was my job to go for the dinners to the chippy most of our gang were 40-50 years old and did not understand the new money system so i made a fortune that week hehe
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Reading this thread has made me realise how much we rely on gadgets to do something that the grey matter should do as a common act. What would happen if all this electronic guff went up the swanny one day how would we cope? We have become too relient on it to the point that things like maths written English (in a letter with proper spelling grammer etc) are dying out.
Are we condeming or children to being slaves to a machine??? My own daughter isnt hot at maths and if she struggles askes for the calc. If I make her try it the old fashion way its a case of it "takes to long" or "I cant do that." I will keep trying even if its just for basic maths as I believe you should only need a calc in an emergency. |
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I just feel that the youth of today have been let down in that the education system, instead of training children to hold information in their head, move it about, - and come up with an answer, they instruct them to hit a few buttons and Hey-Presto, the answer is there! BUT WHAT IS WRONG WITH LETTING THE BRAIN EXERCISE ITSELF?? Modern day tills give the operator the amount of change to be given, scanners make the retail trade so much easier - - but does that guarentee that the customer gets the right change? One of my daughters applied for a job as a croupier at Stanleys Casino. At school, she was "so-so" at mental arithmetic but after the interview, and before the second, she was given an insight as to what the job entailed. The mental arithmetic was frightening, 27x5 plus X and confidently give the answer in the time that it takes to think the question - - :eek: and we are talking pay-out money, so it CANNOT be wrong! I talked her through the "shortcuts" and she grasped the idea. She only remained there for 6 months, but in that time, got an offer to work in London for mega-money! She turned it down, but thats another story. I was reminded of this by another daughter (I have loads:D ) who frequently goes shopping with her, If they go shopping together and only have £40-00 to spend, she knows almost to the penny, how much the shopping will come to when they reach the till:p I am dead proud of her!! - - - but I digress, How many of todays youth can do the same? This is NOT intelligence, it is simply teaching them how to use their brain and to hold information for a second or two so that they can calculate, and go back to the original figure. THIS is what the schools should be teaching! |
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When it comes to calculators don't get me wrong, it's not a case of "I don't know 7x7 i'll use my calculator"
We only use them in complex questions which can't be worked out in your head and would take a lot of time to work out on paper. Time is valuable and some things are worth putting in a calculator, so you can learn other things on the sylabus. It makes sense to not waste time on overly complex math when you can use a calculator, but with simple maths you should always use your head to exercise your brain. We were always told this and the teacher would try and make sure it happened. |
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At school we were always told to show your working out ...how did you arrive at the answer even if you got it wrong .
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Adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing should be taught and practiced until people are capable of doing it in their heads - the rest, is just for dressing! |
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How many members here have used all the "fancy stuff" in their working lives?
Engineers might same with surveyors and architecs maybe some sceince based bods but not many others. |
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I've used a fair bit but not the real fancy stuff.
7*7 is a hard sum to work out really unless you know your tables because its an odd times an odd. Adding up whole shopping bills where something we used to do when we got minimum spend vouchers, ie 4pound off when you spend 20. Excellent way of keeping your brain active. it's also not just learning it you see, it's learning it and using it to keep it learnt. Brain cells die off all through our lives, and word and number puxxles help to slow the process. Calculator should only be used in schools as they were in our day, only as far as need be to teach people how to use them, how to work out percentage with a percent key, and without a percent key, and then add it back on etc. How to use the fancy button, profit margins ad mark up etc. Tills. hmmm I once had an argument with someone in a cafe about my bill. She rang it up, gave me my change and i sat down. I went back and said this isn't right, she went through it and said it is. I said it can't be. Anyway, I sat down ate my food and worked it out as she suggested i should, and then I'd see it was correct. It was incorrect. The change she gave me was right based on what the till said she should give me, but the till added the actual items up wrong 24 plus 24 does not come to 54, therefore it was wrong . Goes back to the girl, goes through it, she says "there now can you see its right", NO, Goes through it again,NO ITS NOT RIGHT, YOUR TILL IS WRONG. She gets a piece of paper writes down the items, like I'm being totally thick, and hey presto. lol the look on her face. I accepted her oppology as it was so obvious that she put so much faith in her stoopid till she would have trusted it with her life so therefore she would never have believed I could be right. |
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