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andrewb 30-08-2006 07:57
Built to Last
 
This morning I got a letter from the Conservatives that basicly had a little booklet with information about the direction David Cameron wants to lead the Party. It has aims that a future Conservative government would put in place.

If you're inetrested in the details then you can read it at: http://www.conservatives.com/pdf/Bui...sandValues.pdf

All the members in the country have been asked to vote on the aims and values put forward. If the majority of members endorse them, would you be more inclined to vote Conservative in the next general election?

ps. Please try not to turn this in to a 'They're only doing it to get in power, same old party', try and make constructive criticism if you have to.

garinda 30-08-2006 08:33
Re: Built to Last
 
I'm not being critical, as a lot of the stated aims I believe in, but I think it's worth noting that the 'new' Tories, as seen from their aims, are about as close to the old Conservative ideals as New Labour's policies are to socialism.

I think they were unwise to note that they want to be more inclusive of everyone by having candidate lists which favour women, blacks, ethnic minorities and the disabled. I believe in the best person for the job should always get the job, and hate positive discrimination of all sorts. A vote turn off for me there.

Overall though I think it all sounds like it will appeal to whom it is intended, middle Englanders, who have become bored with Blair.

Tealeaf 30-08-2006 09:25
Re: Built to Last
 
Sounds like more junk mail to me. Did you know that if you contact the post office, you can arrange for them to stop stricking this rubbish through your letter box? It also means that you will have more room in your recyclying box. So get in touch with them today.

bullseyebarb 30-08-2006 20:06
Re: Built to Last
 
With such a high percentage saying they don't plan to vote at all, how will things ever change for the better? A bit apathetic, aren't you? Surely you can seek out and support more qualified candidates. I know, it's jolly hard work - but it's your country and your government. Hold their feet to the fire!

SPUGGIE J 30-08-2006 21:49
Re: Built to Last
 
There should have been a "dont know" in the vote options. I vote based on what I think is best and that is different for local Scotish and UK elections.
As there is always going to be an undecided element in the voters as well as the cant be bothered brigade then there has to be something there that apeals to them enough to vote for what party offers this. Its too easy for past govenments to just appeal to their kind of supporters it has to encompass all regardless of colour class sex or what tie they wear. The party that appeals to the undecided could win and they know it so they get the strawberries and cream out to woo them.

SPUGGIE J 30-08-2006 22:04
Re: Built to Last
 
Well it seems to be saying all the right things but it wont convince people unless they are willing to put them in action. Look what happend to Pres Blairs lists over the years to show what happens.

garinda 30-08-2006 22:19
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullseyebarb
With such a high percentage saying they don't plan to vote at all, how will things ever change for the better? A bit apathetic, aren't you? Surely you can seek out and support more qualified candidates. I know, it's jolly hard work - but it's your country and your government. Hold their feet to the fire!

Perhaps rather than apathy we don't like polls...or even the ever increasing Americanisation and dumbing down of politics.;)

garinda 30-08-2006 22:22
Re: Built to Last
 
At present 41.67% (five people) say they aren't going to vote.

Since Accy Web membership is open to people of all ages, perhaps your 'apathetic majority' are infact children.

See easily a possibility.

Glass half full, rather than half empty for me Barb.;)

shakermaker 30-08-2006 22:59
Re: Built to Last
 
I'm of voting age in November, so at present my selection in this poll of "I will not be voting" stands as 'I will not lend my interest/support to any of the politicians/parties'.
As Garinda said, the Americanisation of modern politics is very unattractive. This booklet of aims from the Conservatives is a perfect example. Bullet points and buzz-words do not portray the image of a hardworking team of minds coming together for the good of the nation, but of a band of egotistical people who's only principals lie with the latest tabloid & slagging off the other party.

garinda 30-08-2006 23:03
Re: Built to Last
 
Well said Shakey, and not because you agreed with me.;)

I think Cyfer should have given another poll option.

'I will go to the voting booth and spoil my paper'.:D

cashman 30-08-2006 23:07
Re: Built to Last
 
as someone who has voted for the best part of 40 years religiously, i am now at the stage that i would rather have my teeth pulled out with pliers than ever vote again for ANY of these useless,egotistical,lying, pieces of DUNG. and i,m not a child rindy.;)

garinda 30-08-2006 23:11
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman
and i,m not a child rindy.;)

Well let me put your rattle back in your pram then!:p


Seriously, I know how strongly political you are, and find what you say very sad, but totally understand where you are coming from.

cashman 30-08-2006 23:16
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
Well let me put your rattle back in your pram then!:p


Seriously, I know how strongly political you are, and find what you say very sad, but totally understand where you are coming from.
it saddens me as well mate,but thats where i am now.:(

SPUGGIE J 31-08-2006 05:12
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
Perhaps rather than apathy we don't like polls...or even the ever increasing Americanisation and dumbing down of politics.;)
That may be the case but until polititions on all sides take a reality check there will be apathy. People have reached the stage of not trusting these people or their party, hence the sod it I aint voting. The targeting of certain sections of the population and then what amounts to bragging is not the way forward. Our country is changing and changing fast and unless the polititions quit all this crud they get high on there are going to be more people like Cashy.

I see the so called Americanisation with "bullet points and buzz-words" at work as this seems to be how the company runs. There is yet a meeting that I attend that dosnt follow this pattern even in a basic form. If what is happening with the company was applied to govenment then I have an idea why nowt gets done. So much time is spent in meetings about meetings about another meeting that when the warm wet smelly stuff hits the rapidly moving rotating object then its panic stations. We have all seen what happens then.

Neil 31-08-2006 10:25
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
'I will go to the voting booth and soil my paper'.:D
You did not at the local elections. You voted for Peter and told everyone you had voted for Gayle ;) :p

jambutty 01-09-2006 12:39
Re: Built to Last
 
Neither of the Devious Duo is worthy of my vote mainly because they have both had the opportunity to put the ‘Great’ back into Great Britain and failed to do so.

However we will continue to stagger from one Labour period to a Tory one and back again and in the process the working classes will get screwed down more and more.

The government in office is there at the behest of the people to do as the PEOPLE want and not tell the people what they should have. The same applies to local governments.

We can all understand that in order for the government to provide the services that we want will mean taxation but most of our hard earned money is wasted on multiple layers of bureaucracy and projects that only benefit the ruling classes and the rich and richer.

So it is hardly surprising that some 40% of the population don’t vote. They feel that even if they did vote their votes will count for nothing, as the party that wins the national election will do what they want rather than what the electorate wants. Some, of course, will not vote as a protest against the big two. But all that does is strengthen the Devious Duo’s position.

So if you don’t like what the major two or three parties have to offer and are likely to deliver, then use your vote for ANY OTHER PARTY. It doesn’t matter which because apart from the UKIP they have no chance of being elected as an MP or Councillor but a sudden rise in votes for one the obscure parties will get noticed. It will get noticed even more if by some quirk an obscure party gets an MP or Councillor.

andrewb 01-09-2006 19:49
Re: Built to Last
 
They will do what was set out in their manifesto. Im sure this point was brought up before and I had the same responce..

g jones 01-09-2006 20:00
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tealeaf
Sounds like more junk mail to me. Did you know that if you contact the post office, you can arrange for them to stop stricking this rubbish through your letter box? It also means that you will have more room in your recyclying box. So get in touch with them today.
Don't lie tealeaf, you asked for a van load so after the reading the first you could learn more by reading the second and so on...

.... mind you I bet it hurt reading all the that "Cameron Commie" nonsense;)

g jones 01-09-2006 20:23
Re: Built to Last
 
Having read the thread, it's disapopinting that people have lost belief. Greed and intolerance have taken over. Government's pander to factional groups through focus groupings based on swing voters as well as appealing with the lowest form of politics, pandering to the greedy self within people. A situation Kennedy appealed against famously; 'Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country'.

To be honest how many people bother in their neighbourhoods anymore? The simplest form of politics (where governments can't be blamed), such as picking up litter on the street, to going out and tackling other neighbourhood problems. Or ignore the problems, leave it to others, blame everyone else and close the front door, how many people every year vote for that? Too many. "There's no such thing as Society".

cashman 01-09-2006 21:50
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones
Having read the thread, it's disapopinting that people have lost belief. Greed and intolerance have taken over. Government's pander to factional groups through focus groupings based on swing voters as well as appealing with the lowest form of politics, pandering to the greedy self within people. A situation Kennedy appealed against famously; 'Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country'.

To be honest how many people bother in their neighbourhoods anymore? The simplest form of politics (where governments can't be blamed), such as picking up litter on the street, to going out and tackling other neighbourhood problems. Or ignore the problems, leave it to others, blame everyone else and close the front door, how many people every year vote for that? Too many. "There's no such thing as Society".
a lot of truth in that, main problem with neighbourhood problems is quite simply - you get involved and they take the p***, swear at you, threaten you, so i agree theres no such thing as Society.and as an afterthought the goody goodys @ P.C. brigade have destroyed it, theres NO deterant.

cashman 01-09-2006 22:49
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman
as someone who has voted for the best part of 40 years religiously, i am now at the stage that i would rather have my teeth pulled out with pliers than ever vote again for ANY of these useless,egotistical,lying, pieces of DUNG. and i,m not a child rindy.;)
seems someones a bit touchy?:D

garinda 01-09-2006 22:51
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman
seems someones a bit touchy?:D
Are you quoting yourself now?

You schizophrenic nutter.:D

g jones 02-09-2006 08:46
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman
seems someones a bit touchy?:D
No I smiled because I think you meant it but in a way wishing it wasn't so and it certainly wasn't personal.

Wynonie Harris 02-09-2006 18:48
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones
and tackling other neighbourhood problems. Or ignore the problems, leave it to others, blame everyone else and close the front door, how many people every year vote for that? Too many. "There's no such thing as Society".
So, Graham, what happens if you tackle these "neighbourhood problems"? At best, you get a mouthful of abuse from the scum or at worst, you get a good beating and, in some instances, lose your life. Then, what happens to the prepetrators? They get a ridiculously light prison sentence with of course early release. And what have your government done in the last nine years to remedy this situation? Despite tough talking from successive home secretaries (including the latest incumbent, John Reid), zilch!

So, instead of coming on here, lecturing us about what we're not doing, why don't you tell your government to adopt a sensible law and order policy - ie, murderers locked up for the rest of their lives and other violent thugs and indeed criminals in general locked up for much longer periods in extremely spartan conditions. Or does that offend your liberal sensibilities?

panther 02-09-2006 19:06
Re: Built to Last
 
dont like cameron one bit! got a face I could punch!:hitting8: dont know why just does and i dont like the way he talks either,thought john major was bad! and as for voting they can all :swear8:

Madhatter 02-09-2006 19:08
Re: Built to Last
 
You mean like this

The managing director of an international company has told the Herald why he punched a 16-year-old hooligan - and why he would be prepared to do it again.

Linda Ram

Dean White says the teenage tearaway and his gang had leapt over a five-foot fence to intimidate and hurl abuse at him, his wife and two daughters on the drive of their Fazeley home.

"I felt my family was in danger," Mr White, the boss of a firm in Coventry, said.

"I don't regret my actions and if similar circumstances arose again, I would do the same thing, because in a situation like that you are under threat."

The 45-year-old then found himself at the centre of a police investigation after officers caught the youth, who then said he wanted to press charges against Mr White.

"I stood up to these morons and yet I was the one being investigated. My teenage daughters were on the drive and also being subjected to very violent behaviour - we were all very frightened."

The nightmare unfolded one night last week when a gang of boys and girls - said to have clearly been drinking - were being rowdy in the street.

As Mr White also had his three-month-old grandson in the house, he and his wife went outside to ask them to move along.

But they were met with a volley of abuse, foul language and threatening behaviour.

Five of the gang scaled the fence which protects the family home and jumped onto their drive.

"It was five on one. They had backed me up to the front door and one of them was right in my face. He would have hit me, so I punched him.

"I was exercising my right to defend myself, my wife, my children, my grandson and my property.

"I would be gobsmacked if they said there were still charges to answer."

Mr White feels more should be done about antisocial behaviour before things get out of hand.

"Enough is enough!" he added.

"If the council and the police do not clamp down on this sort of unruly behaviour, then it will force vigilantes onto our streets."

The youth later dropped the charges against Mr White, who is now unlikely to be prosecuted.

Police say they will be looking into the problems in the area caused by youths.

SPUGGIE J 02-09-2006 19:10
Re: Built to Last
 
Dosnt matter which party is in power the mold is now set and neither wil swing from it very wide in case they upset the wrong people. With the Labour war going on Cameron could get in evn if Brown was PM as most dont really trust him and not because he is a Fifer.

Wynonie Harris 02-09-2006 19:23
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madhatter
You mean like this

The managing director of an international company has told the Herald why he punched a 16-year-old hooligan - and why he would be prepared to do it again.

Linda Ram

Dean White says the teenage tearaway and his gang had leapt over a five-foot fence to intimidate and hurl abuse at him, his wife and two daughters on the drive of their Fazeley home.

"I felt my family was in danger," Mr White, the boss of a firm in Coventry, said.

"I don't regret my actions and if similar circumstances arose again, I would do the same thing, because in a situation like that you are under threat."

The 45-year-old then found himself at the centre of a police investigation after officers caught the youth, who then said he wanted to press charges against Mr White.

"I stood up to these morons and yet I was the one being investigated. My teenage daughters were on the drive and also being subjected to very violent behaviour - we were all very frightened."

The nightmare unfolded one night last week when a gang of boys and girls - said to have clearly been drinking - were being rowdy in the street.

As Mr White also had his three-month-old grandson in the house, he and his wife went outside to ask them to move along.

But they were met with a volley of abuse, foul language and threatening behaviour.

Five of the gang scaled the fence which protects the family home and jumped onto their drive.

"It was five on one. They had backed me up to the front door and one of them was right in my face. He would have hit me, so I punched him.

"I was exercising my right to defend myself, my wife, my children, my grandson and my property.

"I would be gobsmacked if they said there were still charges to answer."

Mr White feels more should be done about antisocial behaviour before things get out of hand.

"Enough is enough!" he added.

"If the council and the police do not clamp down on this sort of unruly behaviour, then it will force vigilantes onto our streets."

The youth later dropped the charges against Mr White, who is now unlikely to be prosecuted.

Police say they will be looking into the problems in the area caused by youths.
Exactly what I was getting at! I know it's become a cliche now, but the law is weighted in favour of criminals to the detriment of ordinary citizens. And your government have done nothing about it, Graham!

SPUGGIE J 02-09-2006 20:35
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris
Exactly what I was getting at! I know it's become a cliche now, but the law is weighted in favour of criminals to the detriment of ordinary citizens. And your government have done nothing about it, Graham!
Spot on. Now all we need is the spin as to why its this way. That or tell the gov to spin

g jones 02-09-2006 21:04
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris
So, Graham, what happens if you tackle these "neighbourhood problems"? At best, you get a mouthful of abuse from the scum or at worst, you get a good beating and, in some instances, lose your life. Then, what happens to the prepetrators? They get a ridiculously light prison sentence with of course early release. And what have your government done in the last nine years to remedy this situation? Despite tough talking from successive home secretaries (including the latest incumbent, John Reid), zilch!

So, instead of coming on here, lecturing us about what we're not doing, why don't you tell your government to adopt a sensible law and order policy - ie, murderers locked up for the rest of their lives and other violent thugs and indeed criminals in general locked up for much longer periods in extremely spartan conditions. Or does that offend your liberal sensibilities?
Ahh.... another Labour hater!

I can't take anything you say as serious LOL - Are you recomending that no-one should go out and pick litter from their street for fear of being murdered?

ASB is down around 90% in Peel. Labour investment has made a big difference in reducing all crime dramatically in this area. The streets are now safe at night. Our target this year is a 15% reduction on top of all previous reductions.

There is no-one around here (even Tories) that doesn't agree with the above statement. We have two Police/PS officers, soon to be 4. (6 if you vote Labour locally next time). We had NONE under the Tories.

Wynonie Harris 02-09-2006 21:35
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones
such as picking up litter on the street, to going out and tackling other neighbourhood problems.
No, I'm not suggesting that people will get murdered for picking up litter on their streets. But after mentioning the litter problem, you then went on to talk about "other neighbourhood problems" by which I assume you mean vandalism, yobbishness and violence. People have been assaulted and even killed for attempting to tackle neighbourhood problems like these.

I can't comment on the situation on Accrington as I don't live there anymore. You say that there is no one who doesn't agree with your statement that the streets are safe at night. I'd be interested to hear what other local residents have to say about that. I do know that the problem is rampant where I live and that the scum who cause it all seem completely fearless.

Incidentally, I like the way you start your post with the phrase "another Labour hater" as if I'm some kind of rare species. Do you realise just how much people (including Labour voters) despise this present Labour government? Obviously not.

g jones 02-09-2006 21:46
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris
No, I'm not suggesting that people will get murdered for picking up litter on their streets. But after mentioning the litter problem, you then went on to talk about "other neighbourhood problems" by which I assume you mean vandalism, yobbishness and violence. People have been assaulted and even killed for attempting to tackle neighbourhood problems like these.

I can't comment on the situation on Accrington as I don't live there anymore. You say that there is no one who doesn't agree with your statement that the streets are safe at night. I'd be interested to hear what other local residents have to say about that. I do know that the problem is rampant where I live and that the scum who cause it all seem completely fearless.

Incidentally, I like the way you start your post with the phrase "another Labour hater" as if I'm some kind of rare species. Do you realise just how much people (including Labour voters) despise this present Labour government? Obviously not.
This week it was announced that in Accrington Town Centre, violence since the Licensing Laws came in, is down 49%. The streets of my ward have never been safer (18 years lived here). Lancs Constabulary are at the forefront nationwide of neighbourhood policing mind you, so you might not be benefitting as yet.

Given the problems we had before, it would be a tragedy if Cameron's tax cuts, and policies for the wealthy ended up taking us back to 1997.

Wynonie Harris 02-09-2006 21:56
Re: Built to Last
 
Well, I'd still like to hear if other locals agree with you that the streets "have never been safer". It's certainly not my experience. Perhaps I should move back to Accy?!!

Agree with your view of the boy David, though.

Madhatter 02-09-2006 22:52
Re: Built to Last
 
Well the street might be safer now, I think the new licensing laws are helping, but it got SO bad that a lot of people were scared to even go a walk once it got dark, and still are.
I don't care which government it is, we desserve better than any of them are giving us :(

Mancie 03-09-2006 00:38
Re: Built to Last
 
Yeah Yeah CYFR.. anyone would agree and sign up for that stuff.. but experience tells that the tories may agree with social justice but when it comes to it they don't even know what it means. a tory goverment always intails cuts in public services, low wages, cheap imports, and a view to look after big business (funny how the big corps that supply tory funds applaud the recent cheap labour from the baltic states)

Mancie 03-09-2006 03:02
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman
seems someones a bit touchy?:D
Chasman you mental bleedin nutter hamstring case you... spot on

Wynonie Harris 03-09-2006 08:47
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman
a lot of truth in that, main problem with neighbourhood problems is quite simply - you get involved and they take the p***, swear at you, threaten you
No, no, Mr C, you've got it all wrong. "The streets are now safe at night." Graham says so! ;)

andrewb 03-09-2006 09:00
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie
Yeah Yeah CYFR.. anyone would agree and sign up for that stuff.. but experience tells that the tories may agree with social justice but when it comes to it they don't even know what it means. a tory goverment always intails cuts in public services, low wages, cheap imports, and a view to look after big business (funny how the big corps that supply tory funds applaud the recent cheap labour from the baltic states)
If I had said the same about Labour 9years ago you would have soon corrected me. Why do you have to assume that the Conservatives are exactly the same as they ever were. Labour take huge funding from big corps too. Cuts in public services? Maybe the NHS has more money in it now, but that means absolutly nothing if you ask nurses on the ground. I've spoke to quite a few, one who has been working in the NHS 50years and she says it has never been worse than current.

Wynonie Harris 03-09-2006 09:51
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
Maybe the NHS has more money in it now, but that means absolutly nothing if you ask nurses on the ground. I've spoke to quite a few, one who has been working in the NHS 50years and she says it has never been worse than current.
That's because much of the money has been wasted on extra layers of bureacracy, red tape and unworkable new computer systems. My missus works in the NHS and she gets really annoyed about it!

SPUGGIE J 03-09-2006 10:07
Re: Built to Last
 
The NHS is like any other business nowadays as in the collars know more about the coalface than those that are at it so to speak. The NHS needs to go on a diet and a big one at that to loose a large percentage of that excess fat called bureacracy and the bods that live off the misery it causes.

Mancie 03-09-2006 10:11
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
but that means absolutly nothing if you ask nurses on the ground. I've spoke to quite a few, one who has been working in the NHS 50years and she says it has never been worse than current.
how many of these nurses told you they would like cuts in finance?

Mancie 03-09-2006 10:19
Re: Built to Last
 
Never been worse! when was it people were dying on trollies in corridors ? ten years ago.. your disgusting tory party almost dismantled the NHS.. its not good now but its a dam site better then when you lot had it.. come on the tories voted against it in the first place and their natural instinct is to dimantle the NHS! don't give us the same old dilly dally cuts will improve the service and compact it rubbish.. you don't like it, and if you get back in power would try your best to pull it apart bit by bit

andrewb 03-09-2006 10:19
Re: Built to Last
 
I didn't discuss that with them, but without all the beauocracy then theres more money going round for the people that need it in the NHS. Not to mention I don't understand why you are arguing this fact when Cameron hasn't set any figures on cutting tax (well as far as I am aware). Speculation dosn't get you far!

SPUGGIE J 03-09-2006 10:24
Re: Built to Last
 
Dosnt matter who said did impied etc there will always be contensious issues around concerning the plans of a political party. The NHS is the best example and dispite what happens someone will always be unhappy. Thats why we have political parties to stand for what we believe in and whant and take on those that oppose what we want. Ah the joys of the democratic system. :D

Mancie 03-09-2006 10:25
Re: Built to Last
 
[quote=Cyfr]I didn't discuss that with them, but without all the beauocracy then theres more money going round for the people that need it in the NHS. Not to mention I don't understand why you are arguing this fact when Cameron hasn't set any figures on cutting tax (well as far as I am aware). Speculation dosn't get you far![/quote

cameron has not set any figures on anything!.. we get say 2p in the pound tax cut so we get a few quid a week extra.. but we pay when everything you did not give to the multi nationals (french and germans) like water, gas, electric, and more.. why is cameron different from any other tory? heard it all before bruv.

garinda 03-09-2006 10:27
Re: Built to Last
 
At the moment, if the AW poll is a good indicator, we will have a hung parliament, with Labour and the Conservatives on equal seats, the same as all the other parties combined.

andrewb 03-09-2006 10:27
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie
Never been worse! when was it people were dying on trollies in corridors ? ten years ago.. your disgusting tory party almost dismantled the NHS.. its not good now but its a dam site better then when you lot had it.. come on the tories voted against it in the first place and their natural instinct is to dimantle the NHS! don't give us the same old dilly dally cuts will improve the service and compact it rubbish.. you don't like it, and if you get back in power would try your best to pull it apart bit by bit
You are living in a fantasy world. David Cameron has expressed the need to keep the NHS, I believe we should keep the NHS.

Making up fairy tails about what you think is going to happen under a Conservative government is quite pointless. I consider myself a Tory and my insistinct is not to dismantle the NHS. Its not a damn sight better according to the people who work their.

How did the Conservatives almost dismantle the NHS?

andrewb 03-09-2006 10:31
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:

cameron has not set any figures on anything!.. we get say 2p in the pound tax cut so we get a few quid a week extra.. but we pay when everything you did not give to the multi nationals (french and germans) like water, gas, electric, and more.. why is cameron different from any other tory? heard it all before bruv.
Now how silly would he look to provide a definate tax cut figure today, and then when the general election comes around, the economy is totaly different and he has to u-turn. You'd be the first up in arms about how they u-turned on tax cutting, you can't please everyone.

We don't pay extra because of privatisation if that is what you are implying. There is much competition now so you can choose which provider you want, rather than having a staterun monopoly which is only accountable to every five years.

As for the 'why is he different'. He is taking the party in a new direction, using the same values but applying them differently to the way that he sees Britain today would like it. If you don't like the ideas, then don't vote, but not voting because of things 20years ago (which I may add labour have not tried to reverse) is not going to get you the best deal today.

Mancie 03-09-2006 10:38
Re: Built to Last
 
the conservatives introduced the "private management" initutive not only in the NHS but in all state run industries.. they simply franchised the management to private companies and the lowest the bid won that management! and still is to this day!.. I worked at the dti at the time and had to accept the lowest bids for cleaners/porters contracts.. had to accept the lowest bid no matter what the companies work record,employee investment, pension scheme, wage structure or anything... lets get back to those "good ole days" under the tories!!!

andrewb 03-09-2006 10:45
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie
the conservatives introduced the "private management" initutive not only in the NHS but in all state run industries.. they simply franchised the management to private companies and the lowest the bid won that management! and still is to this day!.. I worked at the dti at the time and had to accept the lowest bids for cleaners/porters contracts.. had to accept the lowest bid no matter what the companies work record,employee investment, pension scheme, wage structure or anything... lets get back to those "good ole days" under the tories!!!
If any of that was true, then it would still be the same today wouldn't it? We still have contracted private sectors into parts of the NHS. Yet it magicly became workable under a Labour government? Even though it wasn't reversed and rather, Blair is just continuing the privatisation.

g jones 03-09-2006 10:56
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris
No, no, Mr C, you've got it all wrong. "The streets are now safe at night." Graham says so! ;)
I think Cashman lives on my street or I am wrong?

SPUGGIE J 03-09-2006 10:56
Re: Built to Last
 
We are stuck with the private management wether we like it or not and for better or worse its hear to stay for the foreseable future. The state could not afford a lot of what went private and still couldnt so now its a case of let them be run as cost effective as possible. The NHS has got too many layers and does need the diet to free up money but it needs to be done as efficiently as possible without causing large amounts of agro. Its size and budget make it hard though not impossible to manage and regardless of who is in power it will never be perfect. It is a learn by your mistakes senario and at some point a balance will be reached.

As to mancies point about lowest bids I agree its far from perfect as even the company I work for have gone down that route in order to save money and not have to worry about what they get providing those doing the subieing reach the minimum level required. We may not like it but the laws of economics dictate that it has to be done and will be done in the future. The NHS may not be there to make money but any money saved will be plowed back in to the services we expect.

No pain no gain unfortunately.:(

Wynonie Harris 03-09-2006 11:04
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones
I think Cashman lives on my street or I am wrong?
No, he doesn't, Graham.

g jones 03-09-2006 11:12
Re: Built to Last
 
The best explanation of Tory incompetence I shall leave to David Cameron "We were wrong to privatise the railways".

Subsidies have escalated under Tory policies to £6bn a year. The network is now £22bn in debt and escalating. David Cameron was one of Norman Lamont's special advisor's on Black Wednesday.

SPUGGIE J 03-09-2006 11:16
Re: Built to Last
 
That maybe true but I for one benifit from it in the fares department. If the subcidies stoped I would guess at a four fold increase in fares would occur.

Again no pain no gain.

grannyclaret 03-09-2006 11:21
Re: Built to Last
 
Looking at the poll..There are 8 people who say they wont vote,,,I think you should,,,,even if you spoil your vote,,,:cool: ,but hey what business is it of mine?

Wynonie Harris 03-09-2006 11:22
Re: Built to Last
 
Surely, the state SHOULD subsidise public transport systems in order to make them a more attractive alternative to motoring? I don't have any figures, but I was under the impression that other European countries like France and Spain subsidise their railway systems to a much greater extent than we do.

yerself 03-09-2006 11:32
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones
The best explanation of Tory incompetence I shall leave to David Cameron "We were wrong to privatise the railways".
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Osborne MP
TRAVELLING by train from Manchester to Liverpool could take just 10 minutes, if a Conservative government invested in Japanese magnetic levitation technology.
Full article here: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....0_minutes.html

Bet you'll all vote conservative now:)

SPUGGIE J 03-09-2006 11:40
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yerself
Full article here: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....0_minutes.html

Bet you'll all vote conservative now:)
Maglev trains may be fast but are very expensive to build. Though an hour from London to Glasgow appeals to some. Mind you a train doing 300mph+ through the countryside might not go down too well.

As for voting I aint made my mind up. Last time I had the privelige some of the local as well as national were at the same time making it hard to be sure my vote went where it was supposed to be.

andrewb 03-09-2006 11:40
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones
The best explanation of Tory incompetence I shall leave to David Cameron "We were wrong to privatise the railways".

Subsidies have escalated under Tory policies to £6bn a year. The network is now £22bn in debt and escalating. David Cameron was one of Norman Lamont's special advisor's on Black Wednesday.
I hate how this is constantly brought up, and to people who don't know what exactly happened, they'll make a link between Cameron/Conservatives and black wednesday, when in actual fact it could have happened under any government.

andrewb 03-09-2006 11:44
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J
Maglev trains may be fast but are very expensive to build. Though an hour from London to Glasgow appeals to some. Mind you a train doing 300mph+ through the countryside might not go down too well.

As for voting I aint made my mind up. Last time I had the privelige some of the local as well as national were at the same time making it hard to be sure my vote went where it was supposed to be.
Those trains make no noise though as theres no physical contact!

SPUGGIE J 03-09-2006 11:44
Re: Built to Last
 
Its the future that matters not what happened for good or ill in the past. If lessons have been learned then let it lie. There is enough change and challanges ahead witout rolling out the compost heap contents.

SPUGGIE J 03-09-2006 11:46
Re: Built to Last
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
Those trains make no noise though as theres no physical contact!
No put the air disturbance would as they went past. Even the electric trains that run the West Coast lines make more noise through air disturbance than through the motors or tracks.

andrewb 03-09-2006 11:48
Re: Built to Last
 
Ah I did consider that but didn't think it would be that bad... I should have done my research, thankyou for correcting :D

SPUGGIE J 03-09-2006 11:52
Re: Built to Last
 
I am all in favour of nice fast smooth train journeys but there will always be opposition and the air disturbance to cattle and sheep would have the farmers out with pitch forks and syths.

g jones 03-09-2006 17:50
Re: Built to Last
 
Its always jam tomorrow with Conservatives. Clr Britcliffe is an expert on the subject. How many outside funded projects have there been in the Ob which have actually come to fruitation?

Under British Rail, fares were cheaper, debts non existant, the network more efficient and the subsidies a fraction of the current subisdies. The Tories privatised the railways with the words, 'cutting red tape', 'private sector efficiency' and best of all, 'it will be self financing'.

Cyfr you seem to be accepting public services should be subsidised. You suggest the NHS remain much as it is with less bureacracy the railways should be nationalised and subsidised. What's with the quantum leap?

If you want to run the country Cyfr, you have to come to the table with concrete propositions that can be discussed properly. Cameron is turning into 'Rent a Vote' with his populist off the cuff suggestions.

The Tories need 42% of the vote to get a 12 seat majority. It is obvious Cameron cannot form a stable government on his ideas with just 42% of the vote and the country would head for meltdown. There will be Tory civil war with a small majority. Corporate business, who fund the Tories, have said they want mass immigration from Bulgaria and Romania. Cameron clearly has real problems in forming any government.

g jones 03-09-2006 20:38
Re: Built to Last
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
I hate how this is constantly brought up, and to people who don't know what exactly happened, they'll make a link between Cameron/Conservatives and black wednesday, when in actual fact it could have happened under any government.

Norman and his assistant when Cameron was helping thousands of home owners go into negative equity and lose their homes.. see pic of Norman getting advice on why Britian should enter the ERM.


Lamont calls for more Tory policies - Tuesday, 29 Aug 2006 09:56

Former Tory chancellor Norman Lamont says David Cameron needs more policies. David Cameron needs to develop "more policies more quickly" if he is to persuade people to vote for the Conservatives, Norman Lamont has warned.

The former Tory chancellor said that while the new leader was making the party more voter-friendly, he must go further in developing concrete policies, particularly on law and order, taxation and immigration.

And today Mr Lamont warns of the dangers of breaking too much with the old Conservative party, regardless of the need to update the Tories for the 21st century.

"You have to balance your appeal to open-minded voters who can be persuaded to switch their vote with keeping one's core voters as well. Core voters have the option of abstention, which is a rapidly growing party in the British political system," he said.

andrewb 04-09-2006 07:58
Re: Built to Last
 
Okay, quoting the same article..

Quote:
Mr Cameron launched a series of policy reviews when he became Tory leader last December, which are not due to report until next year. In the meantime, he has refused to get into any detail, although he has made clear the direction in which he intends to go.

"I think it's wise to take your time on policy – you don't want to come out too early with your detailed ideas because they are liable to get lifted by the opposition," Mr Lamont told epolitix.com.



In the policy announcements that Mr Cameron has made, he has clearly broken with Margaret Thatcher's government in stating that there "is such thing as society, it's just not the same as the state", while this weekend he criticised her opposition to Nelson Mandela and the ANC in the 1980s.



But he has also announced plans to extend the right-to-buy, a key Thatcherite policy, and today Mr Lamont warns of the dangers of breaking too much with the old Conservative party, regardless of the need to update the Tories for the 21st century.

Why did you miss this bit out? because it painted Cameron in a good light?

You copied and pasted mid setence on the 'right-to-buy' paragraph, hope that wasn't because anouncing plans to extend the right-to-buy is the start of a formulating a policy!

We can all selectivly copy and paste to try and prove a point.. I dont think you're ment to though! True New Labour eh Mr Jones!

flashy 29-01-2008 21:01
Re: Built to Last
 
and another one...


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