nhs con
 

nhs ? why do i contribute £38 a week to a to a NATIONAL HEALTH SYSTEM THAT STILL DOESN'T WORK.had to wait in casualty for nearly 3 hours with daughter in agony then was told if i had drove down to brentwood casualty in are glorious capital  put £29 on the counter she would have been seen right away what's going on is it a national healh service or is it private !

Re: nhs con
 

Never heard of being able to pay and be seen straight away.  Seems callous to me.. I mean what parent woudlnt pay if there kids are sat there in agony.. even if you cant really afford... I mean if they take CC then ya would probably put yerself in debt rather than see yer kids/loved ones suffer... Seems like a very callous thing to me..

Anyone shed any light on it?

Re: nhs con
 

Yes, in Brentford they have opened a new private casualty. Basically you can go and pay a £29 consultation fee, then the costs go up if you need treatment. This unit deals with minor injuries and in not intended to deal with major trauma. The reasoning is that we have choices in any other healthcare sector apart from casualty, so they are trying to provide more of a choice for people who want it. Critics say that the unit is staffed by poaching NHS staff, from an already stretched service. This unit say that if minor things can be treated in their unit, then it will free up casualty centres to deal with major trauma and reduce NHS casualty waiting times. :-/
Personally I am at the moment undecided as to wether this will work, and it will be evaluated in the future. When you examine casualty figures, many people present there with problems that can be dealt with by their GP and this means increased waiting times for people who genuinely need the service.

On Accident and Emergency as a student in 1989, I had the pleasure of treating a fella for a cut to his finger. I put a plaster on it.  Believe it or not, that's a true story ::)

Re: nhs con
 

Agree totally with TAZ and Harry X.My father who lives in Accy now needed to have a back operation and was put on a 3 year waiting list.I told him to enquire what it would cost privately 3000 pound.Sent him the money and he presto 6 weeks later he has been operated on and not walking around like a spring chicken but at least he can walk around now and not in any pain.When it all boils down to it money talks in any country and any trade

Re: nhs con
 

The NHS will never have sufficient resources while it is free at the point of demand and paid for from general taxation. No other western country does it like we do and that is why our standards of treatment, incidence of disease, post treatment survival rates are the worse in the west.

You may as well open a pub and announce that the beer is free. What will happen - queues round the corner, thats what. What do you do? double the number of barstaff....has the queue got any shorter..no.....so then what...the whiskey is free and the barmaids are topless to.....has the queue got any shorter....I very much doubt it......................

Anyone who believes that chuckinf money at the NHS will solve its problems is in cuckhoo land.....get real - shut it down and start again...

Re: nhs con
 

It's Sad when councils can errect stupid statues in our towns, when our hospitals are crying out for beds. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Re: nhs con
 

Maybe the council should erect beds in the town instead..

Re: nhs con
 

:)  The NHS will always be a bottomless pit as far as money is concerned. It was originally intended to provide a free, accessible service to all, regardless of social and financial status. Over the years, as research has improved, treatments become more complex and expensive, new diseases identified it has become increasingly expensive to run. Treatment is now available on the NHS which is no longer life saving, ie. fertility treatment, reversal of sterilisations, plastic surgery (skin grafts, scar reducing treatments, etc)  and although treatments such as these undobtedly improve quality of life, the NHS was not originally intended to supply this kind of treatment.
Public demand dictates the services that are provided and healthcare is becoming increasingly complex. We have high levels of disease in this country due to lifestyle. Smoking, alcohol, obesity and poor diet. The NHS is now trying through public health consultants and nurses to put the emphasis of healthy living back onto the public, as they cannot expect treatment for diseases caused by their own bad habits, if they are not willing to take some responsibility for their own wellbeing.
Paperwork and red tape inhibit the jobs of many medical and nursing staff. Sometimes it is felt that there are too many organ grinders and not enough of us monkeys. As pressures increase, many nurses and midwives leave the professions to either retrain for something unrelated to nursing or are lured abroad for better working conditions, leading to staff shortages and increased pressures.
Recruitment of staff is difficult, as kids who are bright enough to do a degree are not tempted by nursing or midwifery, they want shorter working hours, better pay, company car etc.
There is no forseeable answer to these problems, despite what the governments tell us ::)

Re: nhs con
 

Well said, Lettie. The NHS is'nt a health sevice anymore - it's a lifestyle service and the sooner we recognize that the better.

What moral reason is there for the taxpayer to fork out for IVF treatment at £3 - 5,000pds a time. What the hell has this got to do with health?

We pay for tattoo removal, because someone may suffer from clinical depression for putting it there in the first place. What crap.

Worse of all, we pay for "Gender Reassignation - sex change"...can someone please explain to me what this has to do with health.....

At the same time that we're forking out on all this garbage we see kids being driven to school & doing sod all exercise doing the day, returning home and messing around for two/three hours on these things every night.

God alone knows what these kids will be like in 30 years time.....I'll be an old pensioner forking out thousands for some coronary bypasses who just ain't fit & have never been fit.....

Re: nhs con
 

Sorry.. Whats IVF treatment?


A bit far fetched in my opinion.. But I suppose someone somewhere could have a tattooo on say there forehead when there 16 and dont know any better than get so depressed about it when they become an adult that it makes them feel ill... I suppose... But on the whole I would agree with your comment on this one :)

Quite a lot.. people feel they are born into the wrong body and this makes them very ill.. mentally I presume. i don't think its a sexual prefernce.. Oh i wouldn't mind being a woman lets have a change.. its more deep routed han that and those people do need medical help.. if that help is deemed to change them then....

Do you ahve kids? Do you let them walk to school on there own.. have you read a paper in the last ten years? people have varying levels of fear and will decide if they think its safe to let there kids walk.. some routes are safe.. some ya wouldnt want yer kids walking along no matter what time of day..

As for no excersize during the day.. What makes you say that? There running about half the day.. they have PE as well.

Re: nhs con
 

IVF = in vitro fertilisation, or artificial insemination if you like....
and the cost quoted above is for one cycle....the new NHS rules allow for 3.

My point is.....some people are not just as lucky as others. Some grow up as midgets, others lose their hair, others have difficulty in conceiving naturally. There is no threat to health wellbeing whatsoever; they are not in pain....if they want to have kids by IVF, then let them pay for it.....it's a lifestyle choice, like going on holiday or not...

Justr as it is a lifestyle choice to make a statement by having a tatoo bunged on your head.....It might hurt when it goes on, but other than that , nothing..no pain, no health problem (other than Hepitatis c in having it done in the first place..)

Sex change - this really is a complete nonsense....I'm not happy about alot of things - I'd like free beer & I'd like to travel abit more - but I don't expect the taxpayer to pay for it. You may as well say the taxpayer should pay for your gambling down at William Hills if you're short of dosh..If someone wants a sex change, let em pay for it. It's that simple.

Remember, our survival rates in Oncology are the worst in Europe. If you want to spend money on some some souped-up drag artist, do it. But I'd rather spend the money on cancer patients and others equally deserving.

And as for the kids, again its a fact that our kids have the most sedentry lifestyle in Europe......do you get child crocodiles in Accy? Answer No.....But it's not me who is raising this point...it's the medical profession...I suggest you check out a few websites..

Re: nhs con
 

We work, pay for an health service and what do we get but a joke.
You can come up with fancy explanations,reasons, complaints and moans. When it just boils down to this we just arn't getting back what we put into and the councels and goverments just have prioritys all wrong.
How can they possibly justify spending all this money on usless junk they call art. When the money could be spent sensibly on HOSPITALS, beds nurses etc.
Not tomention the schools.
It makes me so  >:(

Re: nhs con
 

;)  Many of the above treatments are fairly new in medical and research terms, but as technology increases, so does demand and cost. for example, Fertility treatment (IVF) is  relatively new (less than  25years) and is constantly improving, demand for this is growing. When the NHS became established by the Act of 1948, if someone couldn't have children it was hard luck, but you'll get over it/live with it kind of attitude. Same case scenario as gender reassignment, scar surgery etc. Health professionals now recognise the psychological and social aspects that these treatments can provide, and try to look at overall wellbeing, not just physical health. The NHS wasn't originally intended to provide these services, it was intended to cut mortality rates, by offering free treatment to those who could least afford it for illnesses and prevention (immunisations). As medical knowledge improves, so does demand, therefore leading to a service that no government can afford to pay for, because there's too much on offer. I can honestly forsee a 2 tier system, where the rich/insured get modern, prompt, efficient service, and those who can't afford it don't, and they're the ones most likely to need care and treatment. :(

Re: nhs con
 

Perhaps the first step is to g back to the above... Tattooo removing, sex ops and IVF treatment as tealeaf puts it doesnt come under the above... I do think tealeaf is wrong to say some of those things arnt health problems because they are.. not everyhting boils down to physical pain.. But I agree with him/her?  that the health service shouldnt be paying for it if the above quote was a guidline.

Re: nhs con
 

IF its not life theatening only cosmetic then i think a contribution is in order say 50%

Re: nhs con
 

But mick where do you draw the line?

If your legs falling off in an industrial accident.. your not gonna die but its 50k to sew it back on and next to nothing to let it frop off and sew up the mess.... you cant afford.....gulp!

Silly example but you get the idea.. the line shouldnt be drawn at wether its life threatening..

Re: nhs con
 

;) A few of us at work have said for a while, that some things should be paid for separately. Although we do realise that these things are health problems, and they contribute to overall wellbeing, they are not life or death (although we do get the occasional suicide associated with poor body image) Unfortunately everybody is concerned with moving forward these days and trying to be all things to all men. While researching and experimenting with new non life saving procedures, the scientists are more concerned with wether something can be done, rather than wether it should!! ::)

Re: nhs con
 

i ment  none crytical sergery like ivf boob job face lift there must be a big list of things like if
its at your own request.
then you should pay somthing

Re: nhs con
 

Harry, if you lose your legs in an industrial accident, we can assume that you have not made the conscious desision to do chop 'em off. we can also assume that you're likely to be in some pain and that through bloodloss the injury is life threatening - yes, you need treatment, free, at the point of delivery.

However, if you lose your d**k in a sex change op, I think I am right in saying that you have made a decision to do so. Why then, should I have to pay for this nonsense through my taxes? Your choice - unlike above - so you pay. It's that simple.

Re: nhs con
 

If your illness is self inflicted due to  e.g. smoking, drug abuse, alcololism,obesity then if you are not willing to help yourself then why should the N.H.S. help them. there is a lot of genuine illness's out there as it is.

Re: nhs con
 

agree tealeaf... My response re legs was to micks post suggesting the line is drawn for paying through death or non death and in my example i put...not life threatenign...  http://www.accringtonstanley.co.uk/m...ons/camera.gif

Re: nhs con
 

:(  That's what they're trying to do now. If you are ill because of your own habits, then the NHS will treat you, but they are looking at having the patients sign for want of a better word a contract to say that they will diet/give up smoking/take more exercise etc, in return for their treatment. This is not up and running yet, but was on the news a few weeks ago. It will mainly affect GP's but they have to try and get across that treatment could be withdrawn if the patient does not comply.

Re: nhs con
 

Janet ..your simplifying things a little.. smoking may not be self aflicted all the time... For example I started when I was age 14 and didnt know any better... no notices saying its bad for you.. even advertisments on telly telling you to buy them... OK I managed to give up and have been given a clean bill of health.. no problems after 25 yrs of smoking...but i take no responability or blame for smoking.. i didnt know it was bad and it took me half my life to give up... but a lot arnt so lucky...

if it was a simple choice to give up smoking i believe everyone would do it./.. it aint that easy and if it wasnt really your fault you started and ya ddnt know it was bad for ya then....

there are other issues with smokers... do you turn someone away and tell them to go die in pain.. because its your own fault.. you made a mistake and started smoking now pay the price?

you ahve to take circumstances into consideration.

whats about people who are obese and its killing them.. do you turn them away saying its your own fault for eating too much?

what about someone who contracts a death threating llness while on holiday.. turn them away ..its there own fault for going on holiday..


life isnt that simple :)

Re: nhs con
 

Having a leg torn off in a accedent harry can be live threatening it depends on the curcumstances .
but i was thinking more cosmetic as i said in my last post

Re: nhs con
 

:D  I agree Harry, it's not that simple. Public health is the new buzzword. Specialist doctors nurses and midwives are now going into communities to try and get health messages across. A lot of their efforts are aimed at young people, who just don't seem to be getting that they have to take some responsibility for their own health. Hence drop in centres like the new one at fairfield. These centres are quite good, cos we try to make them fun in order to educate, there are other things that we are trying to do in the hyndburn area, as blackburn has had some of the services that we are trying to get up and running here for ages, and those of us who work in Hyndburn feel that we are losing out.

Hyndburn has the largest number of pregnant drug users in our health district a specialist service is now being provided.
HIV is on the increase, as is chlamydia, National sexual health strategy (DoH) 2002 is looking to address this. Many nurses and midwives are now training in sexual health (myself included)
Smoking cessation services are now provided in the area.
I could ramble on for hours about this, and it all costs money, but I'm starvin and need me tea!! ;)

Re: nhs con
 

Sorry Harry but you and you alone are responsible for the choice you made to start smoking. People told us we were kids and so shouldn't be doing it. Hence you were told it was wrong.
YOU were the one that made the decision yes I will smoke.
When the N.H.S was intraduced surley the smoking related problems were worse.
Things are different now. Nothing stays the same exept one thing the cost of things. At least and I keep comeing back to one thing putting cash were it's needed.
This is NOT with stone things, bronze statues etc.
You cant mend or nurse anything with a ------ statue.

Re: nhs con
 

as you say lettie it all costs money its alright saying to someone you must go on a more healthy diat but when you are on income support with 3 children to feed how do you afford the food seen the price of fish latley
i have been told to go on a better diet but cant afford the fish chicken and other things surgested .
people on income support arnt rich you know
and no we dont spend a lot on other things
Anne sees to that
she is very good with the food bill
they said have oily fish 2 times a week who going to pay for it
???
the better the food is for you the more expencive it gets

Re: nhs con
 

The fact is that their are alternative ways of funding public health treatment other than the one we have now....and those alternative ways in in Europe, Canada & Australia result in an overall better standard of healthcare than we have in this country.

Not only that, but the staff are better resourced and work under far less stress. The nightmare job in the world must be that of an A & E nurse in any major hospital midnight on a saturday.

OK there's an awful lot more Doc's & Nurses than 6 years ago, but there's less beds (not in itself that crucial) and vastly more bums on seats (bureaucrats)

The sooner people start to do some radical questioniing about the NHS, what it's there for and what it does, the better - then maybe we can start to make changes and catch up with our cousins

Re: nhs con
 

[quote author=Tealeaf link=board=general;num=1065035655;start=0#27 date=10/03/03 at 17:40:14]The fact is that their are alternative ways of funding public health treatment other than the one we have now....and those alternative ways in in Europe, Canada & Australia result in an overall better standard of healthcare than we have in this country.[/quote]
examples ???

Re: nhs con
 

:D  Most of the recent and not so recent studies have found that poverty is also a big issue with health. Trying to have a healthy diet is all well and good, but a lot of our families round here just can't afford it, so they do their best with what little they have. The eat 5 campaign of recent years is an example. Trying to get people to eat 5 portions of fruit or veg a day. Not everybody can afford to. There has also been a rise in the incidence of TB in this country over recent years, due to poor, damp housing and overcrowded housing. A heck of a lot of social issues need to be adressed, because they all ultimately knock at the door of the NHS. :)

Re: nhs con
 

have you noticed the increase in spitting in the street  :-X
cant be good

Re: nhs con
 

It's called Insurance, Mick.

Re: nhs con
 

dont be stupid its called disgusting

Re: nhs con
 

;D  There may be more qualified nurses than 6 years ago, but there are less practising nurses. Many have re-trained to do other things, ie law, accounting etc. because they are brassed off with the working conditions, and have left the NHS for good.

Did you know that we have 5000 less practising midwives in this country than we did 10 years ago.  (British medical journal 2003) a study by Ashcroft et al.

This means that patients throughout the service do not get the care that we want to give ;D

Re: nhs con
 

Spitting - yep. Why do you think there has been such a big rise in TB in the last 20 years.....practically eradicated by the early 60's.

Do you remember when you could smoke on the top deck of Accy buses.....and right at the front was a sign saying "No Spitting"....was their a fine...was it 5/- ?

Re: nhs con
 

I don't dispute your figures Lettie. And I also know that half the trained nurses coming into the NHS are from overseas.

Do you think we'll end up like the States in Midwifery and Obs & Gyny? I know that 75% of all births there are now Caes....I'm told the figure here is approaching 20%...It could well be that childbirth becomes a DIY thing, as in Africa....go out , find yourself a bush and have  your baby under there!

Re: nhs con
 

Its becouse of spitting that its on the increase
and before you say you cant get it like that lettie
my mum was a ward sister in a & e thats how she got TB
she is fine now ;D

Re: nhs con
 

;D  Yep the section rate in this country is around 20 % nationally. We won't get like the states because midwifery is actually illegal in about 47 or 48 states and their services are run by obstetricians.
The royal college of midwives, obstetricians and groups such as the NCT support that women do better with one to one care in labour and have less complications and intervention. The rate for our health district is lower than the national average.
In order to provide one to one care there needs to be more midwives. Experienced midwives nationally have taken on the role of junior doctors, because there aren't enough of them either. In my job, I see women through from the start of their pregnancy, labour, and until the baby is 28 days old and they see the same midwives all the way through (in theory)  We put up drips if needed, stitch our own ladies afterwards, perform inductions of labour and do the first physical examination of the newborn. All these tasks have been taken from the doctors for no extra pay, in order to give the ladies some continuity.  The midwives in this country are pretty fierce with their territory and so are our women. Many british ex pats come home (especially) from the states to have their babies here, cos they feel they get more of a choice and better care. :)

Re: nhs con
 

[quote author=mick link=board=general;num=1065035655;start=0#36 date=10/03/03 at 17:55:47]Its becouse of spitting that its on the increase
and before you say you cant get it like that lettie
my mum was a ward sister in a & e thats how she got TB
she is fine now ;D[/quote]
;)  I'm sad that you think I'd dispute you there Mick. You can catch terrible nasties from spit. TB included as it is an airborne bug. Think I'm just gonna hide now [smiley=coffeecup.gif]

Re: nhs con
 

Ok excuse my ignorance but i am really really confused here.

Firstly I thought sex changes whereNOT covered by NHS, didn't Hayley (our own Julie Hessy) have to go to Holland for hers?
I didn't think tatoo removal was covered...my brother has just spent thousands getting his removed out of his own pocket. yes it was a stupid thing to do when he had it done, but he was in the Falklands and got bored and it did say Accy!!! I dread to think how much this is going to cost in the future as tatooing is such a big thing these days.

My other point is several years ago my gran was found  to have lung cancer after smoking for many years. She wasn't given any treatment because she wasn't prepared to give it up. Am I following this right, are all these services now covered?

I think, from what I could see when I was back there for a couple of years, is that many beds are taken up unneccasarily, why be admitted to hospital the day before an operation if the op isn't taking place till late in the following day? I was admitted for food poising when I was there, I was de-hydrated but was taking care of myself at home very well. They wanted to keep me in for 3 days!

Re: nhs con
 

[quote author=lettie link=board=general;num=1065035655;start=0#38 date=10/03/03 at 18:12:39]
;) I'm sad that you think I'd dispute you there Mick. You can catch terrible nasties from spit. TB included as it is an airborne bug. Think I'm just gonna hide now [smiley=coffeecup.gif][/quote]
Dont hide lettie love you realy ;D [smiley=foryou.gif]
most of the nurses do a great job under very difficult condicions i do know the odd one that shouldent be in nuresing though .
you can come out of your cup now lettie

Re: nhs con
 

;D  Thanks for the flowers, I'll come out of my cup now, I also know a few who I wouldn't let near my family, but at least I am lucky enough to know who they are (and it is only a few) :-*

Re: nhs con
 

if every one gave up smoking how would u fund the nhs  thats where most of the money comes from tax on drink and smoking

Re: nhs con
 

;D  On the whole, things like tattoo removal and gender surgery are private and not NHS (yet) but they are now introducing IVF tratment on the NHS ( very expensive and not life or death treatments)  people can have plastic surgery to cover bad scarring on the NHS and I even know somebody who managed to blag her way into having a tummy tuck on the NHS citing severe psychological distress regarding body image as the reason for having it done. I know the surgeon who did it!!  People have sterilisations reversed on a regular basis on the NHS ( they are told when sterilised that it is permanent, and asked if they would want another child should their circumstances change,, ie, lose one of their children or meet a new partner)
The point being that non life threatening things such as the above can be done for free, and this takes money away from the more acute areas ie A&E, Acute Surgery and Medical services. :-*

Re: nhs con
 

In Accident and emergency people are seen in pirority of illness. Life threatening first (i.e unconcious, not breathing and heart attacks) so unless it is life threatening you will have to wait depending on what comes through the doors.  And nobody could disagree that the most serious have to be seen first as if it was your relative thats what you would want. This brentwood scheme is not known that well. As soon as it is well known  there will be queues like at your local casualty.

Re: nhs con
 

Not quite, Malibu......as soon as the queue starts forming, they'll stick up the price like anything else.....no price, endless queue, as in the NHS