Your Country Needs YOU!
 

You have to imagine one of our top armed forces brass pointing a finger outwards.

The MOD has declared that our armed forces are some 5,000 personnel under strength and are looking to our young men and women to come forward and join the navy, air force or army.

Has it ever occurred to the Generals, Admirals and Air Vice Marshals that the reason why the armed forces are under strength might just be down to new recruits not wanting to be involved in illegal wars ordered by a foreigner and followed blindly by our PM? And then being sent into battle ill equipped.

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I think the shortage stems from cutbacks on recruitment for cost purposes before Iraq started. There's also the fact that lots of todays youth don't want to join the army because it involves discipline !

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Our recruitment goals are being met. Plus, re-enlistments are through the roof. Our military personnel are awesome. How lucky we are to have such wonderful men and women. Many citizen soldiers, (National Guard), live in our local community and I keep up with quite a few of them. I can tell you that they are most displeased by the way in which the media and members of a certain party have chosen to describe their service in Iraq and Afghanistan and the fact that the good things they have accomplished rarely get reported upon.

As for this being an illegal war, jambutty......perhaps if the UN had managed to enforce even ONE of its umpteen resolutions, rather than accepting bribes from Saddam, (and they were not alone in that), the U.S. wouldn't have needed to pick-up where it left off in 1991. After what happened to us on 9/11, everything changed. We would have been foolish indeed just to sit back and not do everything we could to protect our country.

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Either that or we don't like the idea of being shot.

Or the fact that some young people actually have a brain and may have reasons why they think the war is unjust.

Or the fact that they do not wish to become murderers.

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The first 2 points are quite reasonable choices, The third is ridicolous.

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It's one of my reasons for not joining, I don't want to pull the trigger that ends a persons life, whats so ridiculous about that ?

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Firing a gun as a member of the armed forces does not make you a murderer.

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Would you be so squeamish if you were being shot at?

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In who's eyes ?

What is the difference between that and shooting someone to rob their possessions, your killing people for their land, just because a lot of people are doing it doesn't make it right... and its supposed to be my generation that has no morales.

I have the choice to join the armed forces.

If I take the choice to join then I am taking the choice to put myself in the position where it's me or them and therefore my responsibility for my actions.

It is my choice whether I become a murderer or not, if I kill a man in war I didn't have to, as I did not have to join.

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Good job previous generations didn't have the same morals

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You are a little too young yet to understand the necessity of maintaining a strong military. One of these days, you may grow to appreciate the many sacrifices made by those who serve your country.

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A strong military is currently needed, that is obvious, as world peace seems a long way away. However why not use the military solely for defence, and not for policing the world. To counter-act the arguement that attacking another country is needed for defence I quote:

A pre-emptive war in 'defense' of freedom would surely destroy freedom, because one simply cannot engage in barbarous action without becoming a barbarian, because one cannot defend human values by calculated and unprovoked violence without doing mortal damage to the values one is trying to defend. - J. William Fulbright

And add the point that the war with Iraq has if anything made the chance of another big war even more. The USA and Britain, the supposed "Superpowers" are struggling to defeat a small country without a leader. Now any real threats will be thinking they've got a chance, seeing a 5 year old take Mike Tyson to the 12th Round would make Amir Khan consider his chances if you understand my point.

Also, please don't use my age as an excuse to not put up a half-decent debate.

Would you be saying that if it was your great great great grandad that died when another man wanted some more land ?

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if europe gets its way it soon will though , you cant even torture terrorist for gods sake :rolleyes:

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How do you know he didn't or did they not teach you history at school ?

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Your alive. One day you may find out how babies are made and you'll understand.

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I'll leave you to it Sam, I like intellectual conversation but you clearly came to the debate totally unarmed :cool:

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You say that it's good that people have killed others for land, when asked if you would have liked it to have happened to your family you replied with a relevant comment and a personal insult, who brought the level of the debate down ?

I have yet to be disproved, so if I am unarmed I'm doing a bloody good job at it.

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Having rules of war does seem rather strange.

If you are going to fight, you fight to win.

Having international rules drawn up, that make some killing legal or illegal, has always struck me as bizarre.

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I've read the thread several times and can't find where I said that. Has somebody been deleting posts ?

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Lets see now, err pay for your own grub run short of ammo polititions and senior officers agreeing to disagree risk being blown up by a bomb in a country you are trying to help oh and dodgy ish equipment. Now if faced with that lot for starters then how the hell do they expect to get recruits. Could be back to the times of the kings shilling in the bottom of the beer glass to get some to join up.

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Sorry if the original quotation wasn't exact. It's the same point though.

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I'm afraid it's a long way off the point Sam.

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Care to explain then ?

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Haven't time now young man. I'm off to the pub, hopefully I'll get somebody to explain to me how babies are made and I can come back and check with you if it's right :D

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Conscript all chavs who'll kick your head in for 50p,lets see how bloody hard they are when faced with a throng of mad mullahs trowing petrol at them.Defination of "chav" up to you.:mad:

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We may be 5,000 military personnel short but yesterday's news on Century FM claimed that lots of young new applicants for the forces were being turned down because they are too overweight. They have had to move the goalposts on BMI so that they can recruit more personnel..:rolleyes:

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Is'nt this along the same lines as when the police force removed height restrictions on joining as they too were having problems recruiting?Maybe the armed forces are short of new recruits because for the first time for 20 odd years our forces are actively engaged in warfare,and todays youth would rather sup cider at our expense than be shot at in some middle eastern s***hole.

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I think the jury is still out on what actually did happen on that terrible day. I am not sure we will ever find out the truth.

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How dare you come on here being so patronising? A little too young to understand? and yet it's his generation that you expect to go out there and perhaps die for your beliefs?

Why not nip over here and cover him in white feathers for being a coward?

Perhaps it's because he appreciates the many sacrifices made by those who served his Country that make him think that this is an unjust war?

I may not agree completely with all that he has said in fact in places I feel he is wide of the mark, but he, thanks to the many sacrifices of young men from other generations is free to express his feelings about this particular conflict. That does not mean that he or many other young men would not be prepared to defend his family and friends if the need arose. However I would deeply regret that if or when that need should arise he and others would just go blindly like lambs to the slaughter because you and others banged some form of patriotic drum and forced him to!

Excuse me are you re-writing History here? the U.S. didn't do it alone in 1991, they had other countries around at the time helping them, just as, in case you haven't noticed they have now!

Our armed forces are out there dying alongside your armed forces, these young men are doing their duty, they are not on some sort of picnic.

Please in future, do not talk to our young men in this manner, (talk to your own as if they are stupid if you wish), treat ours with respect. If the need ever arises they will do what is right.

I would prefer that our troops weren't there, I think this whole thing has turned into a complete shambles and wish we could withdraw before anymore of them have to be returned to this country in a wooden box.
But, because they are out there then it should be the highest priority that they are not only equipped with every means with which to protect themselves but that any short fall in necessary personnel be made up but only from volunteers that go there equipped with the best tools for the job. That can only be done by being honest with them at all points and not trying to fool them with some mis-guided form of patriotism.

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But SamF as a member of the armed service on active duty and following orders it is not murder.

From what I have heard recently bullseyebarb the bulk of the new recruits to the USA armed forces are men and women at the bottom of the ladder with little or no hope of attaining a decent life.

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I can tell you that they are most displeased by the way in which the media and members of a certain party have chosen to describe their service in Iraq and Afghanistan and the fact that the good things they have accomplished rarely get reported upon.

So the truth hurts then?

The reason why the Iraq war was executed by George Bush bullseyebarb was to rid Iraq of Weapons of Mass Destruction on the flimsiest of fabricated evidence and he managed to drag other countries into the ILLEGAL war. No WMD’s have ever been found, although there were some chemical weapons but no meaningful ways of launching them from a distance and in any case those were destroyed before the invasion.

Terrible as a tragedy that 9/11 was, it was used as a revenge excuse to attack Iraq and as a side issue gain control of their oil. They underestimated the resolve of the Iraqis in the same way that they underestimated the resolve of the Afghans and latterly the Vietnamese.

The USA is the self proclaimed policeman of the world whose only purpose is to grab the world’s wealth for itself or at least under its control and impose its style of democracy. Indeed many people take the view and have done since WWII that the greatest threat to world peace has never been the Soviet Union or China but the USA.

The USA puts self interest above and beyond all else under the guise of helping others.

If Hitler had not declared war on the USA and attacked American merchant shipping the States would not have entered the European theatre. If Japan had not blasted Pearl Harbour the USA would have sat back and got rich selling and leasing arms to the Allies. In fact at the wars end the only country in the world that was twice as rich as at the start was the USA. The rest were near bankrupt if not actually bankrupt.

Attaboy Less.

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I haven't made a point of discussing the war much in this thread because to be quite honest I don't or haven't had the time to sit down and study it. But I am confused about the term' illegal'. Where does this come from. Has some official court termed it illegal ?

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Besides removing someone who was guilty of heinous crimes, but who was only one of many dictators throughout the world, but the only one in strategically placed amongst massive oil reserves, what has this ongoing war achieved?

Thousands of allied service people dead, even more Iraqi civilians dead. A country which could be said to be having a civil war, and what to all intents and puposes amounts to ethnic cleansing between the various Muslim factions, and still not a sign of any weapons of mass destruction to be seen.

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From what I've seen on TV the American public is growing more and more disenchanted with the Iraq debacle...and with Bush. He's having to confine his campaigning to his home turf down in Texas where his core support is.

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Exactly. If we were being attacked and it was the people I knew that were in danger then I would be the first in the line to sign up. However going over to some foriegn country just because some redneck wants me to ? No chance.

I think it is to do with the war being declared because USA and UK claimed they had MoD and since these MoD's have not been found, their reason for war was unjust.

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I think if you look at the picture below you might just spot a couple of those missing MoD's from Iraq :rolleyes:

http://uk.geocities.com/medwayscooterclub82/14.jpg

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Sorry quite late to this discussion. W.H. as has been discussed umpteen times in various threads, "the TV" is very biased and "anti-Bush!" Imho.

However I do agree, and believe you are right, America is certainly frustrated by what's happening in Iraq. However, I believe it'smore based on the ineptness or lack of desire of the Iraquies to police themselves.

This war has been a huge thorn in the President's side but he is campaining in many different parts of the country. Our economy is very strong, the unemployment rate (4.4%) is the lowest in many years, inflation is tame, crime is down, the stock market is near a record high etc., etc.. However, I believe the republicans REALLY blew it with the power they had. Ultimate power corrupts!

One of the boys that seee me as his father figure just yesterday graduated from Marine Boot Camp. He said they are graduating 6,000 to 8,000 new recruits each week! (this number shocked me)

If all goes as planned, he will be off to Iraq in a few months. I currently have 3 other of "my boys" over there right now. They are more frustarted by the lack of media support than anything else. They spend more time handing out supplies to children and families, protecting the infrustructure, and trying to keep Iraqies from killing Iraqies. Reminds me alot of Northern Ireland back in the days!

I think the world, the Kurds, and most Iraqies are much better off with Hussein and his horrendous cronies out of power. I also believe we are all now fighting most of the terrorists in one place greatly (but not totally) reducing their attacks throughout other parts of the world! IMHO

Brian

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Very true, America supplied guns to both Iraq and the IRA.

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I havn't the faintest idea why I said MoD's, other than I was talking to someone about the ministry of defence at the time of posting :p Meant WMD's

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So if we are much better off with Hussein out of power, which dictator is America going to tackle next? The one in Zimbabwe? The one in North Korea? No chance, because there's no oil there!

And do you really believe that most of the terrorists are in Iraq? Then, you've been more misled by the media than me. If only it were true!

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Blaming the Iraq war for the diminution of the armed forces is a bit of a red herring. The reason is that the MoD deliberately cut back on recruiting numbers and also made some personnel redundant in the 1990s. It was called rationalisation or, in other words, saving money. The fools who run this country really believed that it could all be done by half the staff. Now the lesson is being learned.

The same thing is happening in the Civil Service. The Government will boast that it is halving the number of Civil Servants and, thus, saving your money. The truth is that you are now getting an abysmal service because there aren't enough people left to do the job effectively.

The present global conflicts have shown up the fact that to retain an effective armed presence anywhere in the world you need soldiers/sailors/airmen. Don't blame the young people for failing to sign up, blame the Government for its disastrous and shortsighted policies.

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The invasion of Iraq Who knows, was based on the lie that Saddam had WMD and that they could be launched within 45 minutes. There was no UN mandate to invade on those grounds yet Bush and poodle Blair, trying to pretend to be a world statesman, ignored the UN and went in. Well not them personally, they were safe behind their desks and bodyguards. Thus the invasion was and still remains illegal and no spin by anyone will alter that fact.

It was only after the event with Saddam behind bars that the tune changed and no matter how many times B & B were challenged on the issue they brushed the question aside and never really answered the accusations. The stance became and still is “the end justified the means”.

The news is that Saddam has been found guilty as charged and sentenced to hang.

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Trouble seems to be Jambutty that they don't appear to have the means to end it !! That was typical of the Americans, we will conquer, but what do we do with it after that ?

Anyone heard of any grand plan yet of how they are going to settle this troubled country ??

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Which only serves to establish that Bush went in half cocked with no clear idea of what to do other than him getting some sort of twisted revenge for 9/11, to finish what his pappy couldn’t and to take control of the oil and gas.

The Americans never do anything that won’t return them a profit even if it means that American lives are shed in the process.

If it ever come to the “hey lads hey” Bush would drop UK like a ton of hot bricks.

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Isnt half cocked putting a bit of spin on it? All he saw was a possible financial hitch that could cripple a lot of his countries customers so he went in to safe gaurd these fiscal areas. Have I Got News For You's openeing title scits some it up well. Arab has a gusher of oil so the troops wade in to protect, it runs out they disappear only to reapear when another gusher appears and with a thumbs up sign.

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SamF can say anything he wants to. And since military service is voluntary, he is not obliged to sign up. That is his right and I have called no-one a coward for having that point of view - so knock it off, Less. I apologize if you thought my remark patronizing. It certainly wasn't meant to be.

I do, of course, realize that there are many other countries involved in Iraq, including your own. Such was the case in 1991. However, you cannot deny that the U.S. supplies the bulk of the forces. I also would prefer that our troops not be in combat. No-one likes war - least of all the military personnel themselves. The best way to avoid such conflicts is to seed as many democracies as we can.

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[quote=jambutty] From what I have heard recently bullseyebarb the bulk of the new recruits to the USA armed forces are men and women at the bottom of the ladder with little or no hope of attaining a decent life.
So the truth hurts then? quote)

You are misinformed, jambutty. As a recent independent study shows, the men and women of the U.S. armed forces are educated and well trained. You cannot be a dolt in today's military because it's so highly technical. Members of the military are not hopeless souls with no chance of attaining a decent life. So, as Less would say, stop insulting our young men and women. In my own community we have a National Guard unit which returned from Iraq several months ago. These are my neighbors. Very bright individuals. Doctors, small business people, teachers, lawyers, truck drivers, engineers, etc., They already have a decent life, yet these good folks volunteer for duty because they love their country.

And, yes, the media has done a lousy job!

If America went to war for land and oil, etc., then where the hell are they? Pardon me, but I believe Great Britain is the country that had the largest Empire ever known.

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We supplied satellite intelligence during the Iran/Iraq war. The American Irish raised cash to supply the IRA with weapons.

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The best way to avoid such conflicts is to seed as many democracies as we can.

Who is America to say that country so and so should have a democracy bullseyebarb?

The best way to avoid military conflicts is to allow countries to govern themselves in their own way and not try to impose the “western” way. Then do honest trade with them without strings. Sadly America wants the cake and the halfpenny and tried to use muscle to get it.

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If America went to war for land and oil, etc., then where the hell are they?

I never mentioned land. There are warlords and dictators in Africa with millions being starved but no oil or gas in their land. I don’t see America going in to impose a democracy.

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Pardon me, but I believe Great Britain is the country that had the largest Empire ever known.

The operative word there is HAD. But we weren’t the only nation to boast of an empire. France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands and Belgium are a few that spring to mind.

You don’t have to look very hard to find skeletons in every country’s cupboard.

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How am I to answer you if I 'knock it off?' Your remark was patronising, your remarks are still, 'patronising!'.
I find most of what you say to be jingoistic (in favour of the good old U.S of A. of course) and patronising, I only refrained from answering you yesterday because I want the words I use to be in English rather than Anglo-Saxon.

You attempted to twist my words by accusing me of quoting you of calling Samf a coward, in future, read my words carefully or I will no longer be as friendly as I am. My suggestion was:-
No way, (bad English must be the Yankee influence), did I say you said he is a coward!

If America's concerns for Iraq are as altruistic as you claim then it doesn't matter if America supplies a million troops and Briton only supplies one! They are supposed to be there helping that country so butt out with the childish, 'we contribute more than you do so there', sentiments (unless you perhaps are thinking in investment terms, we put more in so therefore we deserve more out?).

Every post after the one telling me to has been explaining what you mean instead of what you said, so, will you please in future say what you mean, (English, English being the preferred language on here, (and the plainer the better)), then you won't have to keep explaining what you didn't mean to say in the first place!

Do you perhaps feel that I am being a little over critical? Well guess what? That is the way you have always come across to me and a few others, you are lucky enough to live in the 'Land of the Free', I happen to post on a site where I can say, "knock it off, your form of freedom is killing people!"

The above statement is not how I view the majority of Americans, the few of them that I have met have always been polite and curtious no matter what the name of the Country they have invaded!:D

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That may well be but it was some time ago and, whatever its good points and bad points, you can hardly regard it as the responsibility of present-day Britons. Would you like me to start berating you for your country's past treatment of American Indians? You might also care to reflect on the fact that if Great Britain had not decided to expand its empire by colonising North America, you probably would not be sitting here today bombarding us at regular intervals with your pro-Bush propaganda.

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I have a cousin and several friends in the USA. recently their emails all seem to have this same post-script tagged on the end:
Pulleeze! :rolleyes:


Try telling that to the soldiers who faced a court martial in N. Ireland for opening fire on possible IRA terrorists who drove straight through a checkpoint when challenged to stop. Or to the East German soldiers who were ordered to open fire on anyone trying to escape to the west. Or to a firing squad in WWI whose members had to shoot one of their comrades for 'cowardice' when they were suffering a nervous breakdown from the horrors they had endured. :(

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We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one WillowTheWhisp but any soldier carrying out legitimate orders should not be charged with murder. The officer issuing the orders – maybe, if it can be shown that the orders were unlawful.

As for the NI incident, wasn’t the car full of teenagers and all they did wrong was drive through a checkpoint instead of stopping. It was assumed by the army patrol that they were terrorists because they drove through the checkpoint so they opened fire. Thus they killed without just cause and were, quite rightly, court martialled for doing so.

The East German soldiers were under orders to open fire on all escapees.

Any members of any of the WWI firing squads were under orders from an officer on the instruction of a court martial. However it was argued that some of these courts martial were not legally convened or conducted within the KG & AI of the day. But I do not recall any such firing squad member being charged with murder.

Some officers took it upon themselves to shoot a soldier for refusing to obey orders in a time of war. But few if any were charged with murder, although they should have been. At the time the Kings Regulations and Army Instructions did not give an officer the authority to shoot and kill a soldier for disobeying orders. Only to arrest them and return them to head quarters for a court martial.

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That is the dilemma that all checkpoint soldiers face WillowTheWhisp.

However the point is they were under orders to stop all traffic through the checkpoint but did those orders include shoot to kill any that didn’t stop? I guess we shall never know without access to the court martial documents.

As I said we shall just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Legally not murder... morally is a different matter IMO.

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Morally if some fruitcake is going to attack me and I have a gun in my hands I'll shoot him

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Two of those cases were technically self defence. If they hadn't shot who they were ordered to shoot they would have been shot themselves.

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Perhaps that in itself showed that they supported the 'terrorist' cause.The soldiers were carrying out orders. Their orders were to shoot suspected terrorists if they did not stop when challenged to do so. If they had just let them drive through and they had turned out to be terrorists with bombs wouldn't the soldiers have then been court martialled for disobeying orders? Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Life isn't so crystal clear in the modern army. "I was just following orders" is not apparently a legitimate excuse at any more.

The critical advice and direction which the soldier on the ground needs is clear 'Rules of Engagement', telling him in what circumstances he can open fire. Without such unambiguous rules, his position becomes almost impossible. In Northern Ireland, every British soldier was required to carry a card – known as the Yellow Card - which spelt out precisely the circumstances in which he could open fire. Failure to abide by the rules of the Card laid the individual open to prosecution in the civil courts. Discipline and leadership are the key. If the command chain turns a blind eye to infringements, all is lost. At every level, an understanding of the importance of obeying the rule of law must be instinctive.

In the case of a soldier in Northern Ireland, in the circumstances in which Private Clegg found himself, there is no scope for graduated force. The only choice lay between firing a high-velocity rifle which, if aimed accurately, was almost certain to kill or injure, and doing nothing at all.
One interpretation would be that when a goverment deploys highly-armed soldiers, equipped and trained to kill, in a civilian area, the law must give the armed forces greater licence to kill than would be granted to any other person including, presumably, a less lethally-equipped police officer. In the event, Private Clegg was convicted of murder. He had been on patrol to catch joyriders, and fired three shots at the windscreen of a speeding car as it approached the checkpoint. He fired a fourth shot, killing a passenger, after the car had passed him and was speeding away. The first three shots were fired in self-defence, or in defence of fellow soldiers, but the fourth shot was not a response to imminent danger. The judge dismissed the evidence of bruising to a fellow soldier's leg as a fabrication to suggest injury to that soldier from the car. The Lords observed that army Rules of engagement given to every soldier on a "yellow card" entitled "instructions for opening fire in Northern Ireland" could, on a literal reading, justify firing on a car where a person had been injured by it, irrespective of the seriousness of the injury. But, in any event, the Lords said that the card had no legal force because English law does not have a general defence of superior orders.