Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

In the wake of the 'execution' of Alexander Litvinenko, allegedly by Russian agents using deadly Polonium 210, a poison 250 Billion times stronger than cyanide available only from countries with neuclear reactors, can we really ever trust them or will we slip back into a form of cold war? Or was it the Russians, Putin would have us believe that it has been done to discredit his regime and he has nothing to do with it. What do you think?

Re: Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

I would trust the Russians as far as I would trust the Yanks and for my money the Yanks are the biggest threat to world peace.

I doubt if we shall ever know if the Alexander Litvinenko affair was an ‘execution’ or not and by whom.

The only fact that we know is that Alexander Litvinenko is now dead. At first the ‘experts’ positively stated that he was poisoned with Thalium. Then there was a hint of radiation poisoning and now it is alleged that he was irradiated with Polonium 210.

Putin denies any involvement but then would we expect him to hold his hand up and say otherwise?

Whatever the real reason for his death, if it ever comes out, you can bet your sweet life that it will somehow be tagged onto ID Cards.

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I see political intrigue is not dead. To think this is more like the cold war era than the new era. Whatever happend will never really be understood but since when has anything aligned to politics been simple. It could have easily been an execution from someone he has crossed other than the "alledged" Putin involvement. Hell even the bods at MI5 could have done it.

Unfortunately there are so many ways to top a guy that a govenment dosnt need to be directly involved. If man is good at one thing its killing his fellow man. Was there Russian involvement only they know and if involved they aint gonna brag about it. This does ring of the assasination of the Hungarian dissident (forgot his name) back in '74.

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Personally I do not think Putin ordered the execution of Litvinenko, he was not really important enough to be a threat to him, Britain need the vast oil and gas on offer and will have to be satisfied with tut tutting, more like the work of the commercial mafioso who have never been afraid to silence thier critics.

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I take it Jambutty is/was an 'expert' in forensic medicine, pathology and nuclear physics?

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No but he can read a paper

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Much obliged silvermain I can read a newspaper but I don’t.

I do listen to the regular news bulletins on the wireless (note the olde worlde term) and watch the news on TV.

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I wonder what real news is being buried under this throw back to the sixties, 'Red under the Bed', propaganda?

:mad:

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well roy has been in perfect health for some time so hes been looked after ok :D

i trust em

note to roy:

avoid drinks that glow in teh dark especialy after a row with the mrs ;)

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A very rare element in nature, polonium is found in uranium ores at about 100 micrograms per metric ton (1:1010). Its natural abundance is approximately 0.2% of the abundance of radium.
In 1934 an experiment showed that when natural 209Bi is bombarded with neutrons, 210Bi, which is the parent of polonium, was created. Polonium may now be made in milligram amounts in this procedure which uses high neutron fluxes found in nuclear reactors. Only about 100 grams is believed to be produced each year, making polonium exceedingly rare.

Thallium (IPA: /ˈθaliəm/) is a chemical element in the periodic table that has the symbol Tl and atomic number 81.[1] This soft gray malleable poor metal resembles tin but discolors when exposed to air. Thallium is highly toxic and is used in rat poisons and insecticides but since it might also cause cancer (although the EPA does not class it as carcinogen), this use has been cut back or eliminated in many countries. It is also used in infrared detectors.[2] It has even been used in some murders, earning the nicknames "The Poisoner's Poison" and "Inheritance powder" (alongside arsenic).

Re: Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

short version..

you drink it your screwed :D

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After years and years of proven History, is there any government body that can be trusted? Who really knows what goes on behind those closed doors be it Washington, DC, the Kremlin, 10 Downing Street, etc,.

My first real taste of Government letdown was the Watergate scandal. As a young teen, I had a hard time seeing my "trusted" leader straight up lying. I guess it was just a way to thrust me into reality.

In spite of the above (and not to cause an uproar), I have absolutely zero trust in any Communist Regime. I believe history would support this conclusion.

Brian

Re: Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

Excuse me? But which Communist regime? The Berlin Wall came down in '89 and (soviet) communism collapsed at the same time didn't it? or am I living in a different world to you?:confused:

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Without wanting to complicate matters to much, Marie Curie descovered Polonium, the element was named after the place of her birth Poland. It is used in the 'triggers' of nuclear devices, a highly toxic and dangerous substance that non but the irresponsible would even consider using outside of the laboratory.

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Does this lend to a conspiricy theory then????

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Less, one thing you need to realize about the U.S., Americans were brainwashed for 50+ yrs into believing that the Russians ate babies and lots still think this way. It doesn't matter that every home in America is filled to overflowing with cheap tat produced in the PRC and is a greater danger both militarily and economically to the world than Soviet Russia ever was .

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Sorry spuggie, no it certainly does not, just that Madam Curies Radium/Polonium has more than one use. This was a most crude method of assasination, that could not have gone unoticed by even the most inept of pathologists, but it must serve as a lesson to all of us in the so called 'free' world, the Russians do not give a 'sucker' an even break.

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We can probably trust the Russians as much as we can trust Tony Bliar.

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China, steeljack is another kettle of fish, even they in their own muddled way would have done a more professional job of removing a dissident than 'Mother Russia' have.

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if the KGB did top him? if the authorities ever prove this? does anyone HONESTLY think we will get to know?;)

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in a few days will anyone even care , old news dosnt even get used for chips anymore never mind remembered :)

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to be honest chav i dont give a rats now, end of the day he wernt mother teresa.

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A weeks holiday in mother Russia for such an enlightening reply, no wonder they commit murder without worrying about public opinion.:confused:

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thats why i dont live in russia its practicaly lawless but it aint my problem ive got enough to worry about walking the streets in my own town without worying about people in another country :D

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:cool: It's a grand place for holiday chav1,the females are very forthcoming, foods a bit 'iffy' but fringe benefits are not to be sneezed at, if you'll pardon the pun. Committing such an act on British soil shows their contempt for us and our system of justice and fair play, these thugs are in no way representive of the ordinary Russian citizen.;)

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all i know about russia is what i have been told by peopel that have visited there or lived there and from teh few stories i hav eheard its not te poeple you have to be aware of its the corrupt police :(

we have probably had spies etc comit assasinations abroad and iem pretty sure the S.A.S have done their fair share of hush hush operations etc

all governments are the same just that some are better at not getting caught in te act than others :)

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I am sure we do just that, but the s**t does not hit the fan at a rate of knots when our 'lads' do it, what a mess they have left.

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yup very sloppy work but they got their man and thats all they are probably bothered about, why the hell they couldnt just stab him in teh street or shoot him i dont know , instead of putting so many other people at risk with elaborate plans like poisoning with radiation

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The Peoples Republic of China at the moment! Also, I'd add Vietnam to that list also, oh, and Cuba . . . and all the past ones. Just part of my world!:cool:

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How can the blatant murder of a Russian dissident on the streets of London be propaganda?, pray tell us Less.

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Why don't you give us absolute proof that all this is what has happened, you have made yourself accywebs 'Russian Expert', I personally will await some official report as to what led to this gentlemans death, then if it turns out that this fantastic tale of bungling is true I will no longer consider it to be 'propaganda', until then however I will give the head of the Russian state the benefit of the doubt that if he wanted to have someone assassinated he could employ people of competence to do the job for him.

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No need to personally attack me Less, I did not seek to attack you, only an answer to your previous reply, may be they will find that he died of natural causes as would happen in Russia?

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It was not an attack, you can't prove it was me where are the traces of residual radioactivity?:D

It wasn't an attack, you have put forward many theories about the Russians, I bow to your superior knowledge on these people but I will still await some form of sensible confirmation about what has happened than join in the 'only good red is a dead red', mentality that seems to percolate through this thread.:o

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Not theories Less, thoughts/questions lead to an interesting debate the conclusion is another story.

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Quite frankly, I am appaled that this has occured. On sunday afternoon, I made one of my occaisional forays into London's West End in order to meet up with a few chums for a pint or two, in a pub just off Grosvenor Square. I forgot about sunday's footy, so not only was the pub almost packed with hordes of retarded zombies watching those two faggot teams, Man U & Chelsea, but any available space was taken up by idiot cameramen and journalists, hot-shot from the Millenium (Polonium) hotel round the corner.

I have no problem with these buggars knocking each other off - but please, please, do it in such a way that the results do not interfere with my precious drinking time.

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I do apologise, I'd almost forgotten you LYY, but the Russians are no longer Communists, the thread is, Can We Ever Trust The Russians? I agree that the other people you mention are communists, but, the question is about trusting the Russians, not giving in to the Americans seemingly God given right to be paranoid about anything that doesn't fall within their narrow platform of freedom.

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Less is quite correct the question asked was "Can we ever trust the Russians", mistakes made by the USA in other theaters of conflict IE China, Vietnam is for another thread.

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Dear Less, so sorry to keep you waiting for a reply to your drivelling/obnoxious reply!

Am I a schoolboy to be chastised by you? I think not! As you can see by my original response to the thread, I gave my general OPINION on Governments in general. Also, after 70 years of Communist Rule in Russia, I FEEL that there is a strong communistic mentally that still persists throughout the former USSR.

How dare you attack my contribution to this thread by turning it into an Anti-American blather. That also is not part of this thread. I believe I've seen at least a few times over the year that, on ocassion, a thread contribution may subsist of a general opinion of said contributor. Although somewhat unrelated to the aforementioned topic.

Here is my reply to the subject in it's entirety:

After years and years of proven History, is there any government body that can be trusted? Who really knows what goes on behind those closed doors be it Washington, DC, the Kremlin, 10 Downing Street, etc,.

My first real taste of Government letdown was the Watergate scandal. As a young teen, I had a hard time seeing my "trusted" leader straight up lying. I guess it was just a way to thrust me into reality.

In spite of the above (and not to cause an uproar), I have absolutely zero trust in any Communist Regime. I believe history would support this conclusion.

Maybe we shoiuld conduct a bloody poll as to whether your response to the above was in anuy way warranted? Hopefully you were just having a bad day reminicing on the peace, love and understanding of the Former Communistic Russian Regime!

Have a wonderful day Comrade!

Hugs and Kisses,;)

Brian

p.s. wonder how many took my rant seriously?:D

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Is that what it was. I thought it was a history lesson for the politically inept. ;)

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Brian not at all, I cannot speak for any other members we all have our own views or foibles, you have yours I have mine, some are more abrasive than others, please do not take umbrage, I personally look under the bed every night, Regads Ian. .

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You can't possibly be serious!

The Russians have a long history of political assassinations. Pre-Soviet, Soviet, post-Soviet. Remember Trotsky and the ice-axe?

Yes, the Soviet Union may have collapsed - but Russia is far from democratic. For the last few years, Putin has been consolidating his power. He's a former Head of the KGB and knows how to do it. We cannot trust him or his government. To compare Russia or any Communist/totalitarian country with America or any of the other Western democracies is just ludicrous. Use your noodle, man!

Re: Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

bulls eye - so do the americans

maybe not quite to the extent of assassinations but whole politicial regime changes etc

russia just tends to target ppl meddling its own affairs such as this russian spy

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Oh, come on - get a grip! At least you had the presence of mind to correct yourself on the assassination charge. As to political regime change - you bet ya. If the West was serious about peace in the world it would be looking to do a lot more of that. Iran for starters. The Iranian people are begging for change.

Re: Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

how do u know they are?

sure there's disillusioned people who wud much rather iran b in their vision but wudnt there be disillusioned people to that too?

the west did install a leader it favoured back in the 70's 80's there - but the ppl decided otherwise and toppled the regime. if they were that unhappy they wud topple this one too - iran's regime isnt what saddam hussain did durin his reign

Re: Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

Bullseyebarb ........I am writing this as one of your fellow countrymen .......It's not surprising to me one bit ,that the general feeling on this thread is showing a bit of "anti" americanism , and who can be trusted more the Russians or the Americans , consider .....prior to Sept 11 it was possible to go into many Irish American bars in NYC, Boston and San Francisco and come across fund-raisers for the IRA , funds which were used to buy bombs to blow up British city centers, killing and maiming, women and children , succesive British Govts. appealed to The U S Govt to try to stop this all with no action , it was only after 9/11 that the open invitation to Irish Republican leaders to have lunch at the White House on St. Patricks Day was withdrawn .....so lets not be so critical of folks who don't have as much faith in our Govt. as you seem to have ,
Maybe the idea of exporting democracy is a good idea , I seem to remember that Iran was a secular democracy during the 50s (under Prime Minister Mossedeq) until it was overturned during a CIA sponsered coup which re-installed the Shah, any wonder the Iranians distrust the U S, another fine example of exporting democracy comes to mind , remember a country called Rhodesia, it used to export millions of tons of excess foodstuffs every year, not the case these days is it .

Re: Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

Well said steeljack, lest we forget which side our bread was always well buttered, the choice is 'Hobsons' Mani, if you seek to be an apologist for mediaeval tinpot regimes such as 'Iran',
and the likes of them, maybee a change of address is in order.This thread is about the cruel murder of a Russian political refugee in our back yard, not an anti Amercan platform for the non believers!

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Whinston Churchill would not have agreed with you willow, the Metropolitan Police Force are sending 10 police officers to Moscow to follow the 'radiation' trail, this is only another cosmetic exercise to see that justice seems to be done. That pig that just flew past my window has more chance of solving this one.

Re: Can We Ever Trust The Russians?
 

well said ianto.w. and even the pig wont solve it.;)

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Yup, regime change sure seems to work well! Civil war in Iraq, and a lovely Islamist government in Iran.

Seems to me that the US did best in the countries where someone else (the USSR) had caused regime change - Poland, Hungary, etc.! Small wonder - folks don't like foreign powers messing with their governments.

Probably the best way to export democracy is to do our best to live up to the ideals expressed in our governing documents and show the world how well democracy works here.

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What a shame he did not, Winston feared the Russians, there is a saying keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. If you for one second think the Russians will do you any favours think again.

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[quote=steeljack;344800].....so lets not be so critical of folks who don't have as much faith in our Govt. as you seem to have, (quote)


"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." Thomas Paine.

Since you are the chap who is anxious for socialized medicine to take root in the U.S., I think you have a lot more faith in government than I do.

I have never been keen on foreign intervention. However, it's a fact of life that every country in the world puts its own national interests first.

I think there are many things the U.S. government can do to support democratic movements around the world. We've done it before and should be doing it now.

Irish-Americans would have found a way to supply the IRA with cash no matter what. You aren't blaming the U.S. for conditions in Zimbabwe as well, are you?

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[QUOTE=bullseyebarb;346076] so that justifies ignoring it then?

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The poor man has been buried in a sealed double lead lined coffin, what torments Mr Litvinenko had to endure I will leave to your imagination, the restaurant stays closed "their is no danger to the general public", according to news reports only a short painfull death by radiation!

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Now they say the Sushi Bar is safe and the deed was done at a hotel. What next will surface?

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Would you risk a bit of raw fish Spuggie?

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lastest report out of moscow, one of the guys who met with litvenko is in a coma! just wondered if its the main guy scotland yard want to interview? wouldn,t surprise me.

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Why not we eat raw Salmon so I could give it a go. I have only tried Salmon once and it had the appeal of a cutting tourch around a delicate area. ;):D Whats the difference between sushi and a steak that has had its sides slapped on the pan then served?

The only way the fish would have been radioactive is if it was caught around Vladivostok. :D

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Alledgedly yes and he is according to his lawyer not in a coma though in a coma. :confused:

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Now I'm definitely 'looking' under the bed every night Spuggie j!:confused: