a lesson to the british prison system!
 

TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO, HE IS THE MARICOPA ARIZONA COUNTY SHERIFF AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER.



THESE ARE SOME OF THE REASONS WHY:

Sheriff Joe Arpaio (in Arizona) who created the "tent city jail":

He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.

He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails, took away their weights, cut off all but "G" movies.

He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city projects.

Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again, only let in the Disney channel and the weather channel.

When asked why the weather channel he replied," So they will know how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs."

He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.

When the inmates complained, he told them, "This isn't the Ritz/Carlton. If you don't like it, don't come back."

He bought Newt Gingrich' lecture series on videotape that he pipes into the jails.

More on the Arizona Sheriff:

With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just set a new record), the Associated Press reports: About 2,000 inmates living in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their government-issued pink boxer shorts.

On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees inside the week before.

Many were also swathed in wet, pink towels as sweat collected on their chests and dripped down to their pink socks.

"It feels like we are in a furnace," said James Zanzot, an inmate who has lived in the tents for 1 year. "It's inhumane."

Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates:"It's 120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your damned mouths!"

Way to go, Sheriff! Maybe if all prisons were like this one there would be a lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should be punished for their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for their parole, only to go out and commit another crime so they can get back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things taxpayers can't afford to have for themselves.

Sheriff Joe was just re-elected Sheriff in Maricopa County, Arizona. « Previous Next »

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

This was the subject of a post many moons ago.
I would pay this chaps airfare to come over here and revolutionise our prison system....but wait......have they got Human Rights legislation in the States?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Sounds like he has the right attitude, they dont deserve treating any better.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Arpaio? The fellow who has cost his county many millions in lost lawsuits, several for wrongful death? The fellow who has been publicly accused of torture? Not much to admire there!

No evidence that Arpaio's methods work to reduce crime, either. Even the sheriff himself admits that the recidivism rate in his prisons are about the same as the national average.

Folks can admire this grandstanding bully if they like, but I certainly do not.

Truth is, you just cannot train any sort of animal (including humans) effectively by using cruelty and negative reinforcement. The only thing prisoners learn in such situations is to use cruelty, violence, and negative tactics themselves.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

that's just the kind of namby pamby attitude that causes problems

make it known that prison is hard and not the holiday camp that is now and i'm sure there would be less crime on our streets

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

I don't agree with torture or cruelty, but neither do I think that society is served by prisoners having a lifestyle that their victims cannot even dream of.
Prison should be a place where life is hard.....early mornings.......physical exertion.....suitable food requirements but nothing fancy....... and the inmates should be aware that they are only in this deprived situation because of their own actions. I am sick of hearing the pleas of solicitors who bleat on that their client had a deprived childhood...is a drug abuser etc. etc. THEY CHOSE to do wrong......so if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Less crime? How then do you explain the fact that the repeat rate for folks leaving this sheriff's facility is no better than average - by the sheriff's own admission? If his cruelty does not produce the intended results, then it is just more useless inhumanity! Meanwhile, he has cost his taxpayers many millions of dollars in lawsuits. BTW, If you think prison is a holiday camp, then you obviously have never visited one.

Also, it should be well noted that most of the folks in that sherriff's jail are not yet convicted and, while they are in lock-up prior to trial, entitled to the presumption of innocence in the meanwhile. Presumption of innocence is one of the good things we Americans gained from the Brits. Much better than the French system. Or perhaps you would favor going back to thumbscrews and the rack as evidence-gathering techniques?

In any case, suggest you do a bit of research on this sheriff, as I did. Let's not forget that Herr Hitler was also very tough on some folks and very popular as well - until folks came to their senses.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Torture? That doesn't sound much like torture. Did he ever use thumbscrews or the rack? Did he brand anyone with hot irons? Did he poke anyone's eyes out? Or lash the soles of their feet with a whip?

Depriving them of a few home comforts that many people on the outside can't afford gets my approval. Why should prisoners be better off in prison than their victims are on the outside?

OK maybe living in tents in all that heat s uncomfortable but he does point out that the soldiers in Iraq are ;iving in similar conditions and they have committed no crimes.

As for the chain gangs well are they real chains and are they breaking rocks like in the old days or are they just being kept under control and made to earn their keep? Some people have hard gruelling jobs which they have to do in order to pay their way in life wiithout resorting to crime.

I'm with Margaret that we are qute often too soft with criminals and they end up better off than the victims. Crime doesn't pay? Free board and lodgings, no bills, a balanced diet and chances of further education to help them have a better start when they get out. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

Post Scrip following Billcat's post - I do not think prisoners on remand should be treated the same way as those who have been convicted. Remand prisoners may well be innocent so they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Herr Hitler didn't vent his spleen on criminals.....as far as I am aware...though if you know of some information to the contrary, I'm sure you will let us know.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

The reasons that prisons don't work is because the crims can't wait to get back inside to their cushy lifestyle....with full leisure facilities, TV, and as Willow observed further education opportunities that folk on the outside(decent, law abiding folk, I might add) have to pay for. I don't know what prisons are like over in the USA......but here the criminals have better health care, better nutrition, better leisure faclilties than many of our pensioners. Murderers are accommodated in open prisons...they can walk out and be on the loose for 2 months before we get to hear about it.
We have a Director of Prisons who freely admits that he hasn't a clue how many dangerous criminals are on the loose. Sentences are soft and are almost NEVER served in full....LIFE should mean life......18 months should be 18 months...not the six months that is currently the norm.Prison SHOULD be about deprivation of liberty and social contact......it should be about reparation.....it should be strict enough to deter the wrong doer from offending ever again.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

probably cos too many people complaining about his methods instead of getting behind him and following his example and the cons know it
people who cause harm to others in whatever way do not deserve to be classed as human beings and as such waiver their "human"rights
they are there to be punishe3d not for a bleedin holiday

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

exactly.....and its all free!!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Willow, this sheriff runs a jail, not a prison. Most of the folks in his lock-up are not yet convicted. Don't know how it works in the UK, but the only convicts you will find in most jails are parole violators and newly convicted criminals - both awaiting transfer to a prison. Sometimes, folks convicted of relatively minor offenses with very short terms will also be found in county jails.

Also, from what I have read about him, it sure does not sound like this sheriff is making any attempt at a "balanced diet." Indeed, he seems to take great pride in offering such a poor diet that the only good thing that can be said about it is that you may not starve. Also, please do not characterize it as free board, as it appears that this sheriff also charges for the meals.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

In other words, you favor punishing folks who ahave not yet been convicted of any crime? Am I understanding you correctly?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Margaret, please read a bit more carefully - this sheriff does not run a prison. He runs a jail, where most of the inmates have not yet been convicted of anything. Under our law, they are presumed innocent. They are either being held because there is a risk of flight from prosecution, or because they cannot afford the bail bond. His behavior would be shameful in a prison; it is clearly a moral and social injustice to treat folks who have not yet been found guilty in such a manner.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Prisons aka State Hiltons. Maybe we could learn a thing or two off the law system in the land over the pond. They seem to have what we need less capital punishment.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

no you misunderstand

let me explain in laymans terms

criminal= person responsible for commiting crime
commiting a crime = guilty of performing an illegal act
guilty = punishment
punishment does not mean a free holiday in butlins

is this simple enough?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Yes but as was pointed out quite simply enough, any prisoners who may happen to be on remand, haven't yet been found guilty of any crime yet. They may indeed, as many are, be innocent.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

prisoners in the UK will never be punished..

europe wont allow us to :mad:

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

ok maybe i need to explain a little more

i am mereley trying to say that the BRITISH prison system could learn a thing or two from this example
the difference in justice systems between here and America is irrelevant
britain needs to stop treating convicted criminals in prisons as 1st class passengers on the QEII and actually punish them for their crimes

If criminals were to see that prison meant punishment and hard labour instead of luxury and a free ride through life then just maybe there would be less repeat offences!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

yes we all agree with that but liek i just stated above europe wont allow us to treat prisoners liek they should be

example

when we tried extroditing that terrorist with hooks for hands all teh papers were sighned to ship him off to america but european law over ruled us and said we had to keep him

all the rights given to prisoners come from been under european law so na matter how many laws britain makes a prisoner can go crying to europe and get them over ruled

thats the way i see it anyway :-)

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing. Just pointing out that you were a bit snotty and dismissive of Billcat's comments, which happen to be true.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

not at all rindy
as i said the system in the us is irrelevant to what i was trying to get accross
hence the thread title

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

So why quote Billcats reference, that not everyone in prison has been necessarily been found guilty of committing a crime?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

cos i havent quite mastered the cutting and editing of quotes yet
so the whole thing was quoted to show who i was replying to

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Lol, ok, I'll let you off.:D

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

cheers rindy i appreciate it

i will get the hang of it one day!!!!


(notice no quote)

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

You never let me off that easy when I was 'learning' garinda.:D

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

I think our prison system is a farce, let's face it if our prison's were to get more tough perhaps we wouldn't have people reoffending. Let's face it it's a pretty cushy life! Especially if you've got some waiting on the outside with a wad of cash if you do the time for their crime (it happen's) you get decent meals, tv and even learn a trade whilst serving your time. Maybe their are the few who are remorseful for what they have done and want to come and restart a new life but you only need to look at the stats to see our prison's need a big shake up! Cos whatever there doing at the moment just ain't working!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

It would be interesting if someone could find the recidivism rates for the different countries in the EU 'tough jails' in Greece , Bulgaria ,Romania etc. compared with the 'soft' UK , Also the recidivism rates in the UK compared with other countries worldwide , I'm sure the EU Headquarters have these numbers since these are national statistics ,and maybe the UN/Amnesty have figures for other countries .
Would take a bit of digging but I'm sure at least one of the politcians who use this site have access to the numbers , (whos the local MEP and is he/she an Accy web user ?) maybe he could get someone to check the facts and tell us if the countries with softer jails produce more repeat offenders than the countries with harsher regimes .

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

very good pint willow
i never thought of that but it will probably end up with the tougher countries becoming more like ours!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

The reason why other EU countries may have tougher laws than us is that the Human Rights Act does not have its origins in the EU. It has its origins in the European Convention on Human Rights which was set up in 1950 by the Council of Europe - an institution which has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

For 48 years after this, we were not bound by this Convention in any way, but in 1998, the present government incorporated it into English law as the Human Rights Act.

Incidentally, Jedimaster, a freudian slip here I think! Maybe you were looking forward to a trip down the pub when you wrote it!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

oops maybe i thought i needed a stiff one after the seriousness in this thread!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Maybe you'd seen this in another thread :D

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/a...4&d=1165919359

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Prison in this country is a joke.

The stroies I have heard, like people breaking in to open prison to drop there mate of some fags, booze ect, chilling with them for a while then breaking back out.:confused:

People wanting to go back to prison, so coming out and re offending to get put straight back in.

The best I heard was someone making money from being in jail , more than if they was out of jail.:confused:

Soon we will have too many offenders to put in our already over crowded prisons.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

but i doubt it if corporal punishment were reintroduced

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

For certain offences, the offender should be birched outside the town hall.:D

Public Show.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

I've not been a first class passenger on the QEII, but I did travel on her - in just about the least expensive cabin! You'll have to excuse me for doubting that the accomodations in Her Majesty's prisons even come close. Somehow, I doubt that Wormwood Scrubs measures up - not to mention the fact that, on the QEII, one never feels that one's fellow passengers are going to beat, rape or kill you.

"Luxury" in prisons? I think not!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

in comparison to some working class family homes in this country they may as well be and it's honest taxpayers money that keeps them in this luxury.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Now, that message I can agree with!:cool:

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Okay, back with the hard data!

Interesting article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism. Goes completely against the ideas proposed in this string. Perhaps someone on the pro-harsh-punishment side of the debate would care to counter with some other factual data?

Per the article, the USA (with harsher, punitive prisons) has a recidivism rate of 60%, while the UK with more emphasis on education and rehabilitation, has a rate of 50%. In other words, the recidivism rate in the USA is 120% of that experiencedi in the UK!

Hardly surprising, IMHO. Many prisoners are poorly educated, alienated from society, and unlikely to be able to earn a living. The UK system, which places a greater emphasis on addressing these issues, results in lower rates of repeat offenders. Perfect? Of course not! But considerably better than ours - and I'm sure that we here in the USA spend far more of our tax dollars on prisons that you do in the UK, given our longer prision terms and five times higher rate of imprisonment 625 per 100,000 in the USA, versus 125 in the UK. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/r88.pdf

Frankly, when it somes to getting results, perhaps the USA should look the the UK as the superior model in this instance.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

here we have a picture of uk soldiers living conditions


http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...07_228x647.jpg

now follow this link to uk prisoners living conditions and compare them for yourself

http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/pr...risonoperates/

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Do those those pictures show typical living conditions for the UK armed forces? Or is it an attempt to present the gross exception as the rule?

I very much doubt that this is what most of your armed forces have for living quarters - and they certain paint a very poor and, I suspect, misleading picture of how the UK values its troops. I'm sure that the UK typically does a much better job of providing decent quarter for its troops! I've been in the barracks that the USA offers our troops, and they are nowhere as bad as that.

I observe that the pictures of Her Majesty's prisons show quarters that a clean and serviceable, but pretty spartan. When are we going to see the "luxury" accomodations that are repeatedly mentioned in this thread?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

are you actually for real?

i've seen peoples hoses in worse condition and more spartan than this
good honest working people who pay taxes to provide this free accomodation and as for the armed forces scenario yes it is quite typical as why would ther be a public inquiry at the moment?

see attached link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6230173.stm

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Interesting. Basic ammo (e.g., bullets, hand grenades, mortar rounds) is usually designed to be inexpensive. Is the problem financial or, as is often the case with soldiers in war zones, logistical? Willow, do you have link to some info about this? I know that our US soldiers have had troubles obtaining appropriate body and vehicle armor, but that is largely because the Defense Department had not budgeted for sufficient amounts of these items.

In any case, I'm not sure why the question of soldiers housing is even relevant here. Soldiers in war zones often have to make do with substandard housing - indeed, over history, most the housing for most soldier in war zones has been makeshift at best. Often, the is simply no housing, save for what the soldiers carry with them. When you think back to WWII, the soldiers on D-Day didn't worry much about housing, as they usually wanted to carry as much munitions as they could manage. Those pictures of those horrible accomodations are far better than those enjoyed by the men who fought in the Battle of the Bulge in 1944. No one likes thise fact, but it's a normal part of having soldiers in combat.

I don't believe that it is a valid comparison with what the accomodations in a prison should be. From the pictures of HM Prisons, basic and serviceable seems to be what is on offer. IMHO, that is entirely appropriate.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

is this what you were looking for willow


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...23/nammo23.xml

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Why would you question if I am for real? Obviously, even if you do not care for my opinions, I am very much so. Are you just attempting to be insulting? I had thought better of you.

BTW, I read the article. I'm afraid that the survey of solidiers housing, while it does show some serious gaps in quality, does not show that the "typical" case is as presented in those pictures. Indeed, the article states that 95% of family housing is rated in the top two categories. Single housing has more issues but, even there, the majority of housing rated better than the extreme examples shown in the photographs.

In any case - Why does the problem with soldiers housing have any bearing on the basic and spartan accomodations in HM Prisons? Where is the "Luxury" that is repeatedly mentioned? I don't see any, and the pictures of the prision housing clearly do not support the claim. I'd be interested in what you would do to change the standard as presented in those pictures; would you be so kind as to provide some specifics as to the changes you believe necessary?

I'll agree that soldiers should have decent accomodations, but I fail to see how that would imply that things are amiss in UK prisons. Decent shelter is high on any list of basic human needs. In an ideal world, everyone would have decent, basic accomodations. Those, my friend, are not a luxury!

Question - if the prisons are so luxurious, why don't the folks here who find them so find a way to pass their holidays "inside," partaking of "luxury" accomodations for free? Could it be that they, like me, truthfully believe that the biggest luxury is one that is clearly missing in all prisons - the luxury to do pretty much as you please and come and go as you will?

BTW, I find it very interesting indeed that, when I presented factual data on recidivism, no one lifted a finger to contest or even comment on the data. Why, if the UK system is aparently workiing more effectively than ours in the USA, would anyone advocapte the dehumanizing tactics of that Arizona sheriff?

Oh yes, I am very much "for real."

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

how about this one too

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../05/navy05.xml

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Interesting, but not quite as originally stated.

In any case, what bearing does this have to do with the situations in HM Prisons? What changes to HM Prisons would have ensured that defective ammo was not obtained? None, that I can see.

Looks to me like a failure to do quality control testing on the ammo ordered. In wartime situations, that can result in loss of life.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

the point is why the hell should people who put their lives on the line every day for the safety of this nation and yours! have to suffer in these conditions while people who obviously have a total disregard for any other person lap it up with free living free meals sky tv pool tables gyms computers etc..

heres another example:

Morton condemns jail luxuries

Tabloid News - 12/10/06 - Sid Billington


http://www.megastar.co.uk/meganews/n...DYzOTkwMzE.jpgMorton tells some home truths
MegaStar says: ‘Er, you might want to take off that Hindley wig before you start your campaign. Just a thought.’

British actress Samantha Morton has had a wise pop at prisons who allow convicted sex offenders certain luxuries.

And when we say luxuries, we mean things like cosy cells and HD Ready flat screens. Probably.

According to the Express, In America star Morton, made this shocking discovering while visiting a prison to film a her new role as Moors child-killer Myra Hindley, for Channel 4 drama, Longford.

The drama explores the relationship between Hindley and penal reformer Lord Longford.

http://www.megastar.co.uk/images/bgpixel.gif With £500,000 on offer is it Deal or No Deal?
http://www.megastar.co.uk/images/bgpixel.gif Saucy virals for your viewing pleasure!
During the press screening, Morton, who was brought up in care homes, was quick to condemn the jammy conditions in which criminals live in: “We were allowed to film in a normal wing, then I walked through some grounds, where you had this beautiful lawn, to another wing.

“As I walked down I could see each room had portable TVs and Sky TV. They had these amazing kitchens. Other prisoners get treated abominably but this new wing was totally fantastic with all mod-cons.

“I said, ‘Who are they?’ and they said, ‘Oh, they’re the paedophiles’. I felt cold all over.”

A Prison Service spokeswoman was quick to say that Morton was mistaken, and that Wymott jail only allows inmates to rent portable TVs but does not allow them Sky.

Morton went on to describe her time spent in child care, where they had “no carpets, no nice beds, nothing. To see how these offenders live – I’m just asking, ‘Where is the balance?’”.




would you like more?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Surely someone can do better than that bit of journalistic tripe!

That article is so full of "probably"-type qualifiers and "she said, he said" contradictions as to be useless.

In any case, it mentions luxuries, but really does little to domore than make a lot of disputed claims.

I will admit that I do not have a lot of confidence in the generally low quality of reporting evidenced in that article. Reads as if it is designed to stir the emotions rather than to present anything remotely approching facts.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Interesting editorial, full of a lot of emotion and completely free from even a timy smattering of factual evidence. Save that sort of thing for the folks who want to debate purely from an appeal to emotion.

Frankly, I prefer to deal in factual evidecne, and the recidivism data posted earlier certainly do not support your case.

"A prisoner should have no rights?" Do I take it then that you do not believe that MS Prisons should not be governed by rule of law? That is the logical conclusion, based on your statement.

When you find yourself in hole. it is wisest to stop digging. BTW, where are your ethics? In the same place as all those facts you have not presented? I Googled some of your verbiage, and you lifted the lot from elsewhere, without a hint of attribution. Frankly, it was obvious that it was not yours as the writing style is totally dissimilar. Shame! At my university, that sort of plagiarism would be grounds for permanent separation.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

see at mine it is called resoursefullness

the ability to use available resourses to back up your case
a commendable skill where i come from
also i never said that the material was mine however the opinions are

and my case is that the prison system in this country sucks along with many other things but especially the fact that so much emphasis is put into criminals rights that more often than not the rights of the VICTIMS are either ignored or rubbed in their faces

but unfortunately you like many others choose to side with the criminals

i wonder if you would feel the same if a similar occurrence to the example i gave happened to you

but as we have said before the system is different in the us and it must be far superior to our system so much so that normal people feel that the only way they can be safe is to carry guns with them

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: soldier's accomodation.

The earlier posted photographs may infact have been solidiers accomodation, but they are unsourced. How typical that is, I am unable to say. I do however have a friend in the army, and he lives in the Palladian splendour of Wellington Barracks in London's Knightsbridge, just a short hop to his, and the other soldiers who live there, corner shop Harrods.

I'm sure that service personnel throughout the world sometimes live in less than perfect situations. This I presume is part of the deal when you sign up to serve Queen and country.

I did find this press release from the Army about accomodation.

http://www.army.mod.uk/news/army_new...ommodation.htm

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

By the way, if infact the photograph puporting to show a bath, that is typical of a soldier's living conditions is true, then the soldier whose job it was to clean it, should be court martialed and sent to prison.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

(digression) in the old days Mess invitations used to be addressed to....
Officers Ladies
Sergeants Wives
other ranks women

maybe one of the "other ranks women" is responsible for the nasty bathtub :D

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

This is usually due to the fact that their 'lot' in prison is far better than their 'lot' outside, this leads to institusionalization.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

being convicted of a crime and serving a custodial sentence doesnt make
that person bad or evil......... there are more reasons excuses and motives
than there are sub-clauses in the law books... to tar eveyone with such a
one sided misinformed attitude means lack of true knowledge and an education totally reliant on papers with tits in them..... if all prisoners are scum then what about moses..john the baptist and even the christ! all became prisoners of the state (and criminals) ... are they scum too?
or the people jailed by over zealous mentally retarded j.p,s for refusing to pay
the poll taxes? people arrested at(peacefull) protest rallies...people accused of sex crimes by a disgruntled ex... the list is massive ... prison is not cushy..
if youve never actually served time in prison you really shouldnt comment on
life inside as a misinformed conclusion can lead to a sin greater than the
criminals you would like to see strung up and starved... its satans favourite
sin...... Self-Righteousness.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

i can provide many many links but as you say when the reply is just derogatory what is the point
and in reply to some i am a litttle confused since when does the telegraph have tits in it? (well apart from the odd article about g w b. lol.)

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Maybe they should have two types of prison.one for first offenders maybe people that have fallen on hard times, maybe a lack of a proper education are hooked on drugs,give them a chance to do better for themselve,put them out, and if we see them back, then the second prison should be slightly differant rocks and sledge hammers and if they repeat again, throw away the key,becauce these people are no hope'rs who who don't deserve any public sympathy and only educate petty criminals into their lifestyle,you can't tame a mad dog,

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

yes it does i could be convinced with a system like that
however as with any system once you get a government body behind it, it is open to bribary and corruption and prone to failure
but in theory a great idea!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

It was you that asked if Billcat was 'real' when he raised a point you didn't agree with. Respect for someone elses differing point of view works both ways..

Where did the photographs od soldiers 'typical' accomodation come from?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

same pics as were on national news and there are plenty more like this

i agree with what you are saying but no i don't agree with him
his point is basically stuff the victims and let the prisoners have what they want!
he is entitled to his opinion and i mine. that is the point of a discussion
however i have not been derogatory in any way just put forward my point of view which i believe i am entitled to do on here!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

"Resourcefulness?" ROTFLMAO! Let's be brutally honest. It was not resourcefulness, but theft! You took something that was not yours and presented it as your own. You didn't even do a competent of it as you deception was immediately revealed. While we may call it by legalistic names such as "plagiarism," or "copyright infringement," when you come down to basics, it is simply stealing. Loks like you really aren't much differnet than those fellow "inside," enjoying all those "luxury" accomodations! The only real difference is that when you do it, you appropriate things that are worthless.

You are really a very poor debater, jedimaster. Full of emotion, devoid of fact, ignoring any evdence that the other side presents - and determined to engage in "ad hominem" attacks ("side with criminals" for example) when you find yourself in a losing postion. I have really lost all respect for your abilities. IMHO, you aren't here to enter a discussion, you are here to whine and complain - and you cannot deal with the concept that there are folks who have reasoned, factual reasons for disagreeing with you.

BTW, it is very rare for anyone in this part of the USA to carry a gun, so I will thank you for posting one more bit of factless nonsense! Around here, we manage to be safe without them.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Thanks for the reasoned comments, rindy! They are a blessed relief from the rest of this non-discussion.

Hope you're feeling better recently. I know that you were at less than your best in the past weeks and that is certainly no fun. If you seen Yvonne, give her my greetings - and let her know that I am rehearsing a show. When I came home I auditioned for a local theatre group and landed the role of Pseudolus in "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum." Should be a blast!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Jedimaster, those are your words, not mine. You have once again blatantly misrepresented what I have said. Do little matters, like factual evidence, reasoned argument, and the truth ever concern you?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

A bit of a thread wander but Billcat I'd have to dispute that point. At least the part of the East Coast I'm aware of (that'd be from Richmond, Virginia through Boston, Massachusetts) there are many. many people who are carrying guns. Unfortunately, it is 90% being the criminal element. Either using them in commiting crimes, shooting each other or innocent bystanders. It amazes me how many people are stopped for some small incident then the cops find them with a gun.

Jedi., I'd love you to come over and run some of our prisons. I think you'd do a swell job! :D IMO

Brian

Okay, carry on! (I'm off to shoot something!:p )

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Brian,

Let's look again at jedimaster's original quote, "...normal people feel that the only way they can be safe is to carry guns with them." Unless you define it so that the "criminal element" is the normal people carrying guns in order to feel safe, I don't buy your argument.

Certainly, from my experiences in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut and New Hampshire (all placed where I have spent considerable time), I have not found many "normal people" who carry guns with them for safety, either legally or illegally. In almost the entire area you have mentioned, packing a concealed weapon without the propler permit is a felony, and those permits are not easy to obtain for most normal folks.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Play nicely and don't hurt yourself, said the Sharpshooter, Bar 7.:D

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Okay, I stand corrected as to my address. Most normal folk around here do not carry guns although conceal weapons permits are rather easy to obtain here in Virginia. Another interesting bit is that I believe any non-criminal in the State of Arizona can carry a weapon anywhere except for schoolds and bars! Willing to be corrected if I'm wrong!

Brian

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Don't know what the situation is in Arizona. May be a god place to avoid. Well-meaning amateurs packing handguns worry me more than the criminal element. There are many members of the general public whose most dangerous weapon should be a butter knfe.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Checked the CNN website. If their info is correct, Arizona requires a permit to carry a handgun.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

now are you sure you haven' got your threads crossed here willow?

that sounds like a reply to the other thread about the college professor!

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Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Looks like the post with the possible copyright infringement (former #60 in this string) has been deleted.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

he did a bit of whining to the mods
apparently one of me posts had a copyright thingy and cos i copied it instead of linking (is there much difference) it it was deleted
shame really that people must resort to underhand tactics instead of discussing like adults

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

bet you thought id given up didn't you! lol

well i happened upon this article yesterday thought it might help illustrate my point a little.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,3...020296,00.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007020341,00.html

and this time i've linked the articles to avoid any niggles about me pasting them!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

The last time I went to the Ritz. nice though it was, it wasn't secured 24/7 by trained guards. Comparissons between prisons and hotels don't really equate.

Also Broadmoor is a secure hospital for the criminally insane, hardly your average nick.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

still full of rapists, murderers and paedophiles most of which are only in there beacause of technicalities and lawyers tricks.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

I'm certainly not in favour of prisons being easy. Infact I'd help the economy by building more, and put the scrotes that are currently free to roam the community onto tread mills to help power the national grid.

I just find the financal comparisson between prisons, army accomodation, and hotels totally unconnected.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Golly! Any reputable website, and any reputable user of those websites, will go to great lengths to avoid copyright infringement. The costs of infringement can be very dear, but those costs often fall on the websites owners. Guess some folks just want the law to apply to everyone else, but not themselves - which to the folks running the website, if like having an extremely inconsiderate guest.

Of course, presenting someone's else's work as your own is also intellectual dishonesty, but that is quite another topic.

Stop whining, jedimaster! You did something wrong, got caught, and now are unwilling to take your lumps. So sad, too bad! And rather like the "blame anyone but me" attitude of many of those fellows you claim are living in luxury - LOL!

jedimaster, Luke Skywalker you are not! Grow up and act like a man.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Exactly! Well said.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

fair comment re. copyright i possibly should've checked a little more in depth however i wish to point out yet again that i never once presented it as my own!!!!
tis you who must do the growing up and agree to disagree on this subject instead of throwing insults. which as a grown up i am more than prepared to do!
furthermore i do declare that throughout our discussion heated as it may have become i have not once personally attacked you in any way and i would thank you kindly to show me the same curtosy. unless of course that equates to conduct unbecoming a person such as yourself.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

jedimaster: I wish to "point out yet again," that when you post something - anything - without proper attribution, you are presenting it as your own. That is dishonest behavior. Also, in doing so, you put the the good folks who run Accyweb at risk. In your dishonest attempt to deceive, you tried to play all of us for chumps and suckers - if that is not insulting behavior on your part, what is?

In the final outcome, the one you damaged the most is yourself; who can ever believe you again?

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

i fail to see what your pint is here as there is nothing to believe or disbelieve as i have only put forward my opinion!
and used various snippets of information, however gathered to illustrate that opinion after all that is how the majority of the western world's politics operates. including the grand us of a so maybe you need to look a little closer to home before trashing someones opinion on atheir home country thousands of miles away from your own!
i fail to see the damage
and to be frank i couldn't give a rats a... whether someone as highly self opinionated as yourself wishes to believe disbelieve agree or disagree with what i have to say as they are my opinions and as far as i'm aware i am freely able to express them within this forum and untill i am told otherwise i shall continue to do so.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Frankly, that much has been obvious for a while! You got caught doing wrong and you are totally unconcerned. Choosing not to give a rats ass exhibits the same attitude towards the property of others as that exhibited by those folks you claim to be living "inside" in great luxury.

And you choose to employ yet another tactic of those who can't stand the heat when their argument is failing....trying to change the subject to divert attention. But, you chose very poorly in your attempt to divert. "Look a little closer to home," indeed! Pretty humorous, considering that you, jedimaster, started this string closer to my home than yours, by lauding the tactics of an American sheriff; one who has lost lawsuits that cost the taxpayers millions!

Actually, there plenty to believe or disbelieve. We're discussing housing and the humane treartment of humans. I believe that, whenever possible, all human beings deserve decent housing. For soldiers, prisoners, whomever, even plagiarists! You showed us some pitcures from HM Prisons and tried to convince everyone that they are luxurious. While they looked decent and clean, serviceable and basic, they sure don't appear anything close to what most folks would see as luxurious.

Let's all feel sorry for poor jedimaster. Getting his virtual knuckles rapped for doing wrong. Awwwww, poor lad! Okay, enough of that nonsense!

Frankly, at this point, jedimaster, I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make. Do you endorse the mistreatment of prisoners by that Arizona sheriff? Punishing those who are not yet convicted, against the great traditions of both the USA and the UK? Taxpayers shelling out for wrongful death suits? The recidivism rate noted by that sheriff, even if far higher than that in the UK? If the pictures from HM Prisons do not confirm with your concept of how prisoners should be housed, how would you "improve" the situation?

Here's a piece or two of advice for you, jedimaster - when you find yourself in a hole, it's a good idea to stop digging. When your horse is dead - dismount!

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

ahh finally we get back to the point in hand
i thought you had forgotten about that.
maybe if you read the title of the thread and the various posts in it tou would see that the point i was trying to make was that BRITISH CONVICTED CRIMINALS are in prison to be punished for their crimes and the sheriff in question is more on a par with that notion than the british justice system.
my first poin we are not just discussing housing as you have wrongfully quoted(yet more evidence of failing to recognise the points raised) but the whole lifestyle in which these convicted rapists murderers paedophiles drug pushers etc. are allowed to live in
why shouldnt prisoners be made to earn their keep, why shouldn't they be on rations and why the hell should they have such luxuries as wide screen tv's playstation state of the art stereos etc etc i said this at the start and now i have to reiterate myself just because you haven't paid attention
and as for your advice - i think you will find that is no right or wrong answer and therefore there is no win or lose there are only the opinions of the persons involved in the discussions and as i have stated before i don't agree with your way lefty leanings nor you my opinions so for once be an adult and just agree to differ on the situation as i think you will find i already have.

and in answer to your question if it was down to me firstly i would reintroduce the capital punishment system and for those who were sentenced to imprisonment would be set to workin order to pay back their debt to society and the said prisoners would be fed on a meagre diet, enough to sustain them in their duties and maybe if they behaved themselves i may allow them the odd game of football for good behaviour

further more if anyone has changed the subject her it is you as you have turned this serious discussion into nothing more than a personal slanging match for which reason i humbly bow out of it. as unlike yourself i am her to discuss things seriously among the generally good natured people of this land
and not self obsessed yanks. As that would be the grown up and britsh thing to do.

Re: a lesson to the british prison system!
 

Looks like you are taking my advice and have decided to stop digging yourself into a hole. :Banane37: