Two Million And Rising
 

A report in the news today suggests that there are over TWO MIILION vehicles on our roads today that do not have a current tax disc on display. This is an actual INCREASE on last year.

But hang on, what were all those adverts about on how the DVLA can tell which car is or is not taxed and the registered keeper of an untaxed car would be brought to heel and even the car crushed? It seems to me that it was just an almighty bluff in the hope that those people without a tax disk for their car would rush off and get one. Some may have done but most, it seems, have not and have been joined by others. Another costly and wasted effort on the part of a government that is increasingly becoming a laughing stock.

You don’t need a university education or an ology in finance or physics to realise that before a vehicle can turn a wheel just one revolution it will need fuel.

The simple and most obvious solution, and it is not just mine alone, is to scrap the tax disk altogether and save masses of money on its administration and increase the price of the fuel. Not only will this solve the untaxed car problem at a stroke it will also spread the load fairly between those who travel thousands of miles per year and those who can barely muster a couple of thousand miles. By their very nature gas-guzzlers will pay more to travel the highways and byways than the small economical car. Use the roads more – pay more. Pollute more – pay more. Is that too simple for the cretins in Parliament to understand?

I can hear counter arguments already and no doubt ‘insurance’ and MOT will be thrown into the debate. Problems are not for ignoring but for solving and the insurance question can also be solved by increasing the price of fuel. Thus every time that you buy some fuel for your car your car is automatically covered for third party insurance. If you want better cover for your brand new car then go and buy some extra cover. It’s not rocket science but simple common dog.

What about the MOT – you can’t tax your car if it doesn’t have an MOT, although this only applies to cars over three years old. There are plenty of garages who will pass a borderline or even rogue car and in any case the MOT’s value is worthless the minute you drive away from the garage. It may be valid for one year but it’s true validity is that on a specific day, at a specific time the tested vehicle was deemed to be within the law for taking that vehicle on the public highway. Quite frankly the MOT certificate isn’t worth the paper that it is printed on. But as well as receiving an MOT certificate, a disk would also be issued and it would have to be displayed as the current tax disk is displayed.

Of course there will always be someone who will forge an MOT disk but think on this. Would you rather have your car damaged by a vehicle that does not have an MOT or one without insurance? If third party insurance was included in the cost of fuel you could make a claim.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

in my opinion they are not crushing enough cars

i think you used to have 14 days leeway to tax your car and that should still apply but no tax disk then yer car shoudl be taken away and crushed if it is on a public highway

also cars parked on double yellow and zig zags shoud be taken away and crushed even if teh driver is sat in it waiting to pick somone up from a shop or talking to his friend , removal of owner before crushing the car is optional and at the polices discretion

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

I can see you point on Untaxed vehicles, but the fight is still on.

With the new ruling coming to play soon, that any vehicle you own it will have to be insured.
Should reduce the amount of tax dodgers, as they are probably in the same group as those that dont have insurance.

The Petrol Increase I have to argue, how would you judge a Price increase? It would grealy affect UK business who need fule to survive in business, and find it hard enough to compete at the moment.

As for fule providing Third Party Insurance, how would you judge a premium to fuel increase?

I presume you dont do much driving?

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

tax disks for cycles should be implimented , childs cycles shoudl be exempt , i mean the ones that 5 year olds ride as an example

infact some form of insurance as well considering how many accidents they cause


time to start hittng the cyclist i say

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

I would agree with you.;)

You can Get it.

http://www.eandl.co.uk/insurance/cycle

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

should be compulsary and powers to stamp on their spokes if not using lights on tehir bikes would be good too

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So some new ruling is supposed to come into force that says if you own a vehicle it will have to be insured? It may have escaped your notice ***Mr D*** but that is the case now and has been for donkey’s years, except that it pertained to a vehicle on the public highway not just owning one. I cannot see this control freak government going as far as to force people to insure a vehicle just because they own it. In any case if they can’t enforce the current insurance law what chance is there of enforcing this new one?

Well let’s see. The average motorist will do 15,000 miles in a year at an average of 35 mpg with petrol at say £5 per gallon. With road tax at - well there are various prices now - but for the sake of argument let’s say £200 as an average. I don’t know because my car is a Motability lease vehicle and it comes with tax and insurance paid.

So a motorist would use about 450 gallons, spread over the cost of road tax that would be about 45p per gallon. So petrol would have to go up by about 45p a gallon or 10p a litre.

You could do a similar calculation for third party insurance. I’ll let you do that.

With over 2 million un-taxed cars on the road the losses to the treasury are, if we take the average car tax at £200 pa, around £400 million each year. So the increase could come down to just 5p per litre with say 10p for third party insurance.

As you point out most if not all of those 2 million un-taxed cars would not have insurance so if they damage your car your only come back is to sue the driver if he I still alive or pay for the repairs yourself or pay the first whatever it is and lose your no claims bonus and that could be expensive. Even if you successfully sue the driver there is no guarantee that he will pay up. He’s hardly likely to have any spare money if he didn’t insure and tax the car in the first place.

How much driving I do isn’t relevant but if you must know, come next April when I will have had my present car for one year I will probably have managed about 2,000 miles. When I returned my last car in April 2006 it had done 4,500 miles in 3 years and never been faster than 60 mph.

However don’t forget that if petrol were increased to cover the cost of road tax and third party insurance I would be the loser because as I stated earlier my car comes with free tax and insurance.

The government doesn’t like one ‘catch all’ tax because then tax rises will stand out and hit you in the face. But a penny here and tuppence there isn’t quite as noticeable. The more complicated the situation the easier it is to hide sneaky tax rises.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

To many people who do not need a motor car have one why a status symbol, some families have two or three cars why? to many car journeys are made by one person per car, going to work the perfect example, car sharing should be made compulsory going to and from work. If less motorcars were on the road the bus service would then come back into its own as it was in the 60s and 70s, people who work within a 5 mile radius of their homes have no excuse for driving there, unless they use the cars in the course of their working day.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Don't know about returning your last car with only 4,500 miles on it, sounds to me you should be returning your driving licence, bet you are a real joy to be behind on a country lane :eek: :eek: :eek:

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

I shouldnt of said 'coming in to force soon' as I am not the decision maker.

Continuous Enforcement.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...033114-02.hcsp

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

I sense a few torpedoes are on your way steeljack:D

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Just the one Ianto.W. Just the one.

Fire one!
One running true sir!
I have yet to meet a country lane where the speed limit is more than 40 mph in the UK steeljack. This might seem to be a strange concept to some people but if the road sign declares a speed limit of say 40 mph I do not exceed that limit regardless of the idiots behind me. Actually that is not strictly true because in the UK there is a leeway of 10% plus 2 mph so if gravity causes my speed to increase I will allow it to rise to 46mph before taking action to keep to the limit. If the road conditions are such that it isn’t safe to travel at that speed I slow down to a speed that I consider to be safe. Others may and probably do have a different view on the situation and will feel comfortable at a higher speed. We can’t all be Stirling Moss’s.

I have been known to pull over and wave past the idiots behind me and let them reach the morgue before their time.

I KNOW that I’m not a bad driver and that doesn’t mean to say that I consider myself to be a good driver - that is someone else’s call.

Now why should I be returning my license? A clean one for more than 20 years I may add. My car is not a status symbol. It is a tool to be used when required and being retired my annual mileage is going to be low.

I don’t care how drivers behind me feel, as I will generally not exceed the speed limit although I will go with the flow when required to even if it means breaking the speed limit. What I won’t do is scream up to a speed camera, slam the anchors on before reaching it and then burn rubber after passing it. Sadly too many drivers do just that and tailgate others in the process.

Hit amidships skipper.
Roger torps, nice shooting!

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

trough of bowland is 60mph

well ime pretty sure i saw national speed limit signs down there althhough i dont recomend it in some parts theres some pretty sharp corners :D

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Thats probably to get rid of drivers steeljack was refering to, just joking jambutty keep those torpedoes stowed:D Seriously chav if you tried to do 60 through the trough you would certainly finish up in it.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Are you trying to stir things up ???:D :D

he probably drives like he's steering a ship , sail before steam and all that

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

As we say in Yorkshire where I come from steeljack, "Im carring quiet" jambuttys gone to bed, and he stirred the pot well on this and the gay adoption thread, and he's a crammed beggar in the mornings:D:D

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

lol if you can get to 60 because of fallen trees in teh way that is i had to shift 2 last week at 3 am in the mornig just to get past :)

got to admit though there are soem dollopers drive along the country roads at 15 mph and suddenly find teh accelorator when after 5 miles eventualy an overtaking oprtunity appears :mad:

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

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Is that 3rd party though or only for the bike itself?

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

That would cover both.

If you click the link, click on Cycle Insurance under Rates & Premiums.

At the Top click Policy Summary, that lists all the covers provided.

It also includes replacement Hire, Recovery, Personal Accident - (be it only slight cover)

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Just got out of bed willow, i'll think of an answer when i've had another brew. Hang on a second, something has got to be done there are far to many status symbols on the road, what's wrong with walking and catching a bus/train,? that is what I did when I was working and still do now i'm not, to many folk have cars they do not need. Now i'm going to make my second brew.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Motability is something else that needs major reform.

Why should you be given a car with free tax and insurance?
Why should it be replaced after only 4,500 miles?


As for your calculations on tax on fuel. Where do you get 35mpg from? My car is good for 45mpg. More if you sit at 60mph on the motorway.

I can agree, I think on the road tax on fuel.
The insurance on fuel is a daft idea. I could have as many crashes as I wanted and not have to worry about insurance. 17 year old lads could drive around in sports cars killing themselves and others.

The only nice thing about the whole idea is that I could have a car for each day of the week :D


Another confused statement by you. A condition of your insurance is that it is taxed and holds a current MOT. So no MOT means no insurance.

While we are talking about MOT's all cars should have one every year. This silly idea of not MOTing a new car for 3 years is stupid. You did 4,500 miles in 3 years. I was talking to a service engineer yesterday who does 90,000miles in 3 years.

90,000 miles with no MOT, daft isn't it?

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

There is going to be Torpedoes flying about left right and centre today ,I can't wait:D

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Are you going to the meet tonight? If you are, I will bring you a new wooden spoon, you must have worn your old one out by now. :rolleyes: :D

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Did you serve time aboard a Sub? there seem to be a lot of torpedoes mentioned.:D

Agree with you on this one, I bet a few mobility vehicle arnt even need by the person they are provided for.

Not bad, I only manage 35mpg on a motorway at a steady speed, round town more like 20mpg.:(



Totally daft, would never happen, who would underwrite such a risk. Any Car, any driver. the increase per gallon would have to be high.

To insure a car for one day would probably cost a average of £10.00 - 365 x 10 = £3650.00. on a none annual contract basis.

This would also undo all the work the industry is putting in a the moment with the MID. (Motor Insurance Database).

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

just a note, anyone who has a motibility car is giving up their cash amount of £43.35 per week that is paid for their Disability living allowance high mobility rate so that is getting on for over £170 a month so I think that does help cover alot of the costs of the car

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Quote:

he probably drives like he's steering a ship , sail before steam and all that

If that’s the best that you can do steeljack, then God help America. Oh! I get it! A lame attempt at taking the micky. It’s rather sad when someone doesn’t have the nous to take part in a serious discussion and can only resort to stupid remarks.

I’m not a crammed begger in the morning Ianto.W. Whatever gave you that idea?

I agree with WillowTheWhisp that car sharing is not the be all and end all solution primarily because many people have no option but to drive their car on their own. I’m one for a start. Do the advocates of car sharing suggest that I find me a passenger every time that I go out? Come on! Get real!

It is not the Motability car leasing scheme that needs reforming Neil it is the government department that hands out the Disability Living Allowance to anyone with athletes foot and worse. Or at least they used to. Things have tightened up a lot in recent years.

The Motability car leasing scheme enables people who qualify to be independent in their mobility. Would you deny someone that independence?

To qualify for the higher rate of DLA the applicant has to demonstrate severe walking difficulties. These are generally seen to be experiencing pain whilst walking or not being able to walk at all (like a lower limb amputee) or needing the assistance of someone else to walk. The distance is generally seen as about 50 yards. I think that there is also an age limit on first qualifying for DLA. Thus a 90 years old crippled with arthritis and barely able to stand let alone walk would not qualify for DLA. But I don’t know what that age limit is. To qualify for DLA an applicant has to go thorough medical tests as well as getting corroboration of their condition from their own doctor not just on the application form but also on an independent form that is sent to the doctor.

The Motability scheme allows recipients of the higher rate of DLA to use some or all of the 4 weekly allowance to lease a car and if they are prepared to they can add their own money to the allowance to lease a car that costs more than the full allowance.

The car is not replaced after 4,500 miles or any mileage. Now that is a stupid conclusion to come to Neil. The lease lasts for 3 years although there is a total mileage limit of 60,000 miles, I think it is. Anything above that amount incurs an extra charge per mile that has to be paid at the end of the lease. Like any car that is leased it comes taxed and insured, so we are not getting them FREE. They are paid for in the lease fee.

Your comments on insurance Neil do highlight a problem with multiple claims against one person. But as I have stated before, problems are there to be solved and not just dismissed out of hand and called daft. At least having a ‘daft’ idea is better than not having any ideas at all and just knocking other people’s attempts at finding a solution. In any case a so called ‘daft’ idea can and often does trigger a train of thought in someone else to come up with a different idea.

You seem intent on trying to put down my suggestions Neil but if you read my post carefully you will note or you should note that my calculations were just an example based on a countrywide average. In any average figure there will be highs and lows.

It seems that things have changed since the last time that I bought car insurance. Then I did not have to produce an MOT certificate to insure my car. I had to produce a valid MOT and Insurance to tax it though. Maybe you are getting confused in that if an insured car does not have a current valid MOT and a claim is made against it the insurance becomes invalid. The same would apply if it isn’t taxed.

When the MOT was first brought in the cars of the day were nowhere near as reliable as they are today. For a start off they had starting handles to crank the engine if the starter didn’t do its stuff. Nowadays you can get a manufacturer’s warranty for SEVEN YEARS.

However your argument that all cars should have an MOT after one year has some merit, although I would base the criterion for needing an MOT to be based on mileage AND time. I would suggest that a new car would need an MOT after 50,000 miles or three years whichever come first and thereafter at 10,000 miles intervals or one year, again whichever comes first.

Sorry to disappoint you Ianto.W. but the MOD won’t give me any more torpedoes. I’ll just have to use words instead.

It’s not only subs that have torpedoes ***Mr D***. Destroyers, Cruisers and even Battleships had torpedoes and not forgetting Motor Torpedo Boats better known as MTB’s. I don’t think that modern warships have torpedoes any more. With missiles they don’t need them.

Good win by the Rovers!

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Yawn Yawn Yawn!

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

If this thread is that boring, why do you read it tadah?

Or is this yet another puerile attempt to belittle a serious discussion?

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Yep that's what I meant, I know people who have received it when they should not. Ie a woman who supposedly could not walk very far who worked behind a bar in a pub :mad:

I now you meant 3 years, it just seems a waste of money to be replacing it after so little use. Pushing the lease to 6 years or 60,000 miles would make the lease cheaper and cost the government less money.

It means the same thing, no MOT or tax = no insurance.
When people are fined for not having tax or a valid MOT, they should also be fined for having no insurance.


Your 3 year old car could have as many defects as my 9 year old car. Lamps could be blown, tyres damaged, premature bearing failure etc etc etc.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

[quote=jambutty;375697]If this thread is that boring, why do you read it tadah?

Or is this yet another puerile attempt to belittle a serious discussion?

I think this and many of your threads are anything but boring and usually quite interesting.
Even if I don't always agree with you.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

You do not need to produce a MOT to insure a vehicle.

I have also yet to read in a policy a wording anything relating to insurance being invalidated dut to not having a MOT or Road Tax.

The Insurer would ALWAYS be made to pay any Third Party Claims, but could possible make a deduction to any claim relating to your own damage.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Not being a mind reader Neil how could I possibly know what you meant. As one Scottish judge put it, “People (he actually said notices) should say what they mean and mean what they say” Seems fair enough to me.

If you knew that I stated 3 years why blather on about 4,500 miles? I am the exception in that my mileage is very low. I know of several people who come close to the mileage limit and one person who regularly has to cough up a mileage fee at the end of the lease.

The Motability car does not cost the government a red cent. If a recipient of the higher rate of DLA didn’t want to lease a car they keep the money to spend as they wish, on taxis maybe.

My 3 years old car could have defects with the operative word being could. On the other hand it could not as the annual service would pick up any potential problems. And if perchance something develops between services it is repaired. Any car owner with an ounce of respect for a new car would maintain it while they have it let alone for just three years. The Motability lease deal also includes up to 4 new tyres for no charge and puncture reapirs are done free of charge by Kwik Fit garages.

I think that you are being picky just for the sake of it.

By the way this thread might be boring to tadah so why shouldn’t he say so?

Well there you are ***Mr D*** we learn something new every day.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

No MOT here....although, areas with a higher population do require emissions testing.

Jambutty, I am always disappointed when your solution is higher taxes. Good heavens, don't you pay enough for petrol already?

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

'Tis a fact, also I think £170 a month would also get you a pretty decent car anywhere on HP.

Car tax itself is an outmoded idea, I think all car insurance and MOTs should be logged by the DVLA and the car tax itself should be shoved on fuel, therefore the heavier the user of the road the more they pay to use it Ipso Facto a fair tax. I do think a quota of the tax should be used to keep the roads in a reasonable state though.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

just a question or two .....who qualifies for this mobility allowance ? every pensioner ? or just those who can't get about ?

:confused:

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If you read my post and understood what was written bullseyebarb you should have noted that my suggestion isn’t to increase taxes but a shift on how they are collected.

I can unequivocally confirm that the current higher rate of DLA is £43.45 per week paid at 4 weekly intervals to the sum of £173.80. If some or all the money is used to lease a Motability car it is paid direct to Motability and the balance, if any, is paid to the recipient.

Can I remind the reader that the Road Fund License, to give it its official name, was introduced to pay for the repair of roads and to pay for new ones to be built. Those roads being those that are not the responsibility of town and city councils. The maintenance of those being paid for out of council income although the borderline is more blurred than that. The RFL should have been ‘ring fenced’ but it wasn’t. However the idea was that the motorist paid to use the roads. The RFL has always been unfair in that someone who travelled 50,000 miles in a year would cause more wear and tear on the roads than someone who only travelled 5,000 miles pa yet both made the same contribution to the ‘repair fund’. It’s a bit like everyone paying a fixed price for their bread and you can take as many loaves as you want.

Maybe you should read what has already been posted steeljack. In my post #27 I wrote

Quote:

“To qualify for the higher rate of DLA the applicant has to demonstrate severe walking difficulties. These are generally seen to be experiencing pain whilst walking or not being able to walk at all (like a lower limb amputee) or needing the assistance of someone else to walk. The distance is generally seen as about 50 yards. I think that there is also an age limit on first qualifying for DLA. Thus a 90 years old crippled with arthritis and barely able to stand let alone walk would not qualify for DLA. But I don’t know what that age limit is. To qualify for DLA an applicant has to go thorough medical tests as well as getting corroboration of their condition from their own doctor not just on the application form but also on an independent form that is sent to the doctor.”

I think that you are right Ianto.W. in that you have to be under 65, for men, (I’m not sure what the age is for women) to apply for DLA and once granted it continues until death or the person is taken into a care home and the like. Also the lease agreement does not allow me to drive any other car on my Motability insurance nor can any other insured driver drive my car, unless I have officially nominated them as my co-driver. I can have two co-drivers and either can use my car but only if I am in it as a passenger or they are doing an errand on my behalf. This rule does get exploited by some though, in the same way that friends and relatives of Blue Badge holders exploit that award. Which reminds me Ianto.W. if you get DLA you will also qualify for a Blue Badge but you have to apply for it. However you can get a Blue Badge even if you do not qualify for DLA and the Blue Badge is for you not your car. Also you can ask the council to mark out a disabled bay in front of your house. Not that it has any legal standing. It would need a plaque on an adjacent wall, lamppost and the like to make the bay road legal.

I hope that you do get the higher rate of DLA Ianto.W. because it will make one heck of a difference to your financial situation. Motoring expenses will be limited to fuel. And when it comes to your state pension it will affect that to your advantage as well.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

The thread isnt boring. You are.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

This reply is not a personal 'dig' at you Tadah, iv'e read some of your previous posts and enjoyed them, jambutty is right if you don't like the thread why read it. Why not start a thread about Formula One motor racing Ferrari is that what that badge is ? We can't help being boring old farts sometimes:D.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

yes it is upto the age of 65 for both men and women to be able to claim DLA but you will continue receiving it until death or if your condition improves (of course that depends on the medical condition). After 65 you can only claim attendance allowance and that does not include mobility component...it can be quite confusing and the forms for DLA are a nightmare....let me know if you want any help with them ian as its part of my job :)

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

I think that you are right Ianto.W. in that you have to be under 65, for men, (I’m not sure what the age is for women) to apply for DLA and once granted it continues until death or the person is taken into a care home and the like

Wrong! DLA can be taken away. I was given DLA 12 years ago. 4 years ago they stopped it. They said i wasnt ill enough for it to be carried on. Dont know how they said that - when i had my wrists still in the splints and actually couldnt squeeze the doctors fingers!!!

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Yes I think you are right shillelagh, it can be given for a certain term and then removed, but the whole process of applying is a minefield of traps to try to trick you out of getting it, and certainly the application form should only be filled in with the help of a 'professional'

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

Oh DLA is definately a minefield and I did put in my post above that it DLA can be stopped if the medical condition improves, however they sometimes stop the benefit with no warning, but always, always appeal (unless you are better of course). As Ianto says it is a minefield and yes there are many pitfalls to avoid when filling out one of the forms :(

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There is certain in law of my wifes family that is in that category, only he drives as well, my mum in law says it's because he goes to church with the doctor. I think he's a member of the pant leg roll up and funny apron gang.

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

I know a few people who also have mobilty, and have no problems walking whatsoever, but I also know someone who couldnt walk so far without being out of breath and could not get mobilty, !!! so how do they work that one out???, half of these people who do get it are conning the system, and some who are in need of it, dont get it!

Re: Two Million And Rising
 

The mobility is a bit like the benefit system as a whole.

Messed Up.

People who need it dont get it.

Those that know how to play the system will.