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Aged 12 And Looking After the Family
seen this last night on channal 4, 12 year old Louise and 9 year old Jenny who between them look after their four young brothers day in, day out, because their parents are blind and disabled.
But the documentary took a darker turn when it came out that Jenny tried to commit suicide by putting a black plastic bag over her head when she was 8 because the strain had got too much for her.:eek: I felt really sorry for them, a child should not take the responsibilty of what a adult should be doing, whether they are disabled or not! http://adsadmin.newsquest.co.uk/Real...ault/empty.gifwhat do you lot think?:confused: |
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I seem to recall a program on tv a couple of months ago looking at children who care for their parents, and from memory the number is about 2 million. They should be getting far more help from the state but of course the state would rather squander it's money looking after the druggies,criminals, and other dropouts.
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Didn't see the programme Panther, but on the face of it, does seem outrageous that these children should be expected to give up their childhood for their indulgent parents. Were they disabled when they had them, or became that way after the births of the children ?
Not saying disabled people should not have children .. of course they should, lots of disabled parents manage in these circumstances .. but producing six ! when it is obvious would be difficult to look after them correctly, does not seem right to me. Did they not get any help at all ? Like I said .. don't know all the circumstances, so my comments may be a little unfair. |
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Wasn't one of the parents qoted to have said that having so many was so that the kids could look after them also spread the chores :rolleyes: rather selfish attitude indeed, feel sorry for them kiddies:(
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one kid was asleep under the pram!! while another was crawling outside under a bin I think it was, and they where dirty, I dont know how these parents get to keep these kids! I found it a bit upsetting really,:( |
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i heard that too mel, i thought it was outragous, i'm all for equal rights, yes let blind people become parents but not to 6 of them, when the programme was filmed there was no sign of the social services, yet right at the end of the programme the narrator said the ss had been involved and they now have a bigger house, this family will just keep on breeding and it isnt fair on the kids, the state of the house was horrid, the kids where dirty, eating off the floor and the smallest was bottle feeding whilst absolutely filthy, it just made me wanna jump in there and take the kids away and give them a big hug, love and a bath....it wasnt a pretty sight :mad: |
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Just hope the programme will do some good for them, as sure lots of other people felt the same way as yourself. Yes, Chav .. know what you mean .. will now be a discussion on sterilisation of very badly disabled people being sterilised .. wait for it. In the end, can't do this of course, Human Rights and all that, and I agree. |
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the father wasnt blind from birth, his father beat him up and he went blind
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was gonna say havnt they suffered enough :D |
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eejit :rolleyes: |
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Did they interview the Social Services ? What did they have to say ? Sure they must be involved somewhere along the line , and possibly the NSPCC ?
Sorry, Flashy just read your previous thread properly .... bigger house,eh ? Well, that must solve everything, more chance of the toddlers wandering off out of sight (sorry, didn't mean that to be literally) |
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social services dont take iinterviews they only take children
strange however that these people can keep their children in squalor yet only last year a couple who were slightly backward and had their child in good health etc had their child taken away:mad: |
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In a way it's a shame they had to highlight the blind people for this programme. There are plenty of able bodied and sighted people who look after their kids the same way :(
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they only had a 3 bedroomed house kate, it was in a real state |
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I didn't see the programme but on the face of it agree that these people should not have been allowed to have children if they are not capable of looking after them. What a shame for the children especially the older ones who have been given the responsibility like it or not, surely social services should step in.
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I only saw a little of last night's programme but the woman came across as completely stupid and selfish. She had no idea of trying to help herself or do anything for herself and she just looked on her children as insurance for her future. She had no interest in their welfare whatsoever and just left the little ones to rot until the older ones came home. She and her husband didn't talk to them or play with them, they didn't even change nappies, not that difficult even if you can't see provided you have everything in order. The couple didn't seem to have much difficulty finding their cigarettes and beer cans.
Social Services jumped in and took well cared for children from their homes when ridiculous allegations of Satanic rites were made, some years ago, but they leave little ones in a home like that. It defies common sense. |
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I didnt watch it i went out and forgot to tape it and i did want to watch it. Its hard being a carer and like i've said before i dont know how kids can do it especially with school and all that entails.
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Hopefully these poor little sweethearts deprived of their childhood get their revenge by shoving them in Britains Worst Nursing Home when they're elderly! Who looked after the younger ones while the older ones went to school? They were allowed to attend school weren't they?? :mad: |
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A film crew must have been with this family for days and the social services must be monitoring the situation. Maybe these families should have a home help from the social.. but then people would be on here moaning about paying extra tax! Does anyone think it would be better for the kids to be seperated from thier parents, seperated from thier brothers and sisters,taken to homes were child abuse is not unknown? Grego.. when you say "these people should not have been allowed to have children" what do you actually mean? |
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well they could have taken the children away at birth like they do from some able bodied people who are deemed not fit or able to bring up children
just an option but surely when a blid disabled couple turn up at teh doctors pregnant some action one way or another wether it be help or taking the kids away should have begun interestingly enough the couple had several previous attempts at conception but only got success on the 8th attempt after recieving a guide dog which was able to bark " up a bit " ;) |
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So Chav.. they turn up at the doc's ... because some able bodied skaghead pros and her pimp have the baby taken away at birth (I'm not sure that happens)..these people should also have their kids taken away.. two wrongs don't make a right.. but then they do in your.."bash em smash em kill em all world" you seem to live in.
from what I've heard you are in no position to bring guide dogs or any other dog into the argument :D) |
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these people are blind and disabled and stated that they wanted more kids to help out , this alone appeard that they want a child labour camp and not a family so yes i think teh children should have been taken away at birth and given a chance to lead a better life than cleaning up after 2 selfish people
ps: the dog in teh animal sex clip i posted shots from in the 18 section had not been trained to be a guide dog it had been trained in other areas like cunnilingus for example ;) so the next time a labridor licks your hand ask your self if it is a trained seeing dog or just licking your hand because you are a ( well we share similar humour and i cant use stars so you should be able to figue ths 4 letter word out) :D |
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Taken away at birth and given a chance to end up cleaning for a living?.. nice ..the eldest girl was doing well at school.. Chav..a simple questionaire (which I think you should be legally required to answer as an obvious extremist)
should invalids(blind,deaf,immobile..) be exempt from having children if yes..should invalids be sterolised should people who may carry some uncontrolable desease be sterolised? I suspect its a YES chav what next?... blonde hair blue eyes? Chav.. you are one Nazi..and his dog! |
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err read my post again , i said they should have been taken away at birth to save them from having to clean up after their selfish parents if your going to come onto a forum trying to look clever throwing names about at least get your facts right. unless of course when you said "Taken away at birth and given a chance to end up cleaning for a living?.. nice" you actualy think that all people adopted or brought up in foster care are only fit for cleaning jobs? saint marys genetic clinic are currently doing tests to see if stupidity is genetic , just a thought if your passing that way :p |
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A friend who saw this program was telling me about it and as she described the squalor and the lives of those children I felt so sorry for them. I didn't see it myself and all I know about it is what others have told me but the fact that an 8 year old tried to commit suicide because she couldn't cope is enough to indicate that something is very, very wrong.
I'm apalled Mancie that you seem to be defending the selfish attitude of these parents in having children to act as servants and carers. Leaving babies without having their nappies changed, leaving them uncleaned and unfed unless an older child feeds them (which cannot happen when the older child is at school), doing nothing when a child falls and is injured ........ it amounts to neglect. Those children will not look after the parents when they get old. They'll be off like a shot as soon as they can and who could blame them? I do not think parents, able-bodied or disabled, who cannot or will not look after their children should be allowed to keep them and keep producing more. It's not a case of the parents' human rights and equal opportunities, it's about the lives of the poor innocent kids. |
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I have never in any of my posts stated that gay people should not be allowed to adopt. Neither has the Catholic church ever made such a sweeping statement. What they did, and what I see no reason for anyone objecting to, was to pass gay couples on to other agencies rather than deal with the adoption themselves. Much the same as when you go to a tradesman and ask for a specific type of work which he doesn't do and he says he knows a man who does.
However, that is an entirely different subject and there's already a thread so no need to drag it into this one. The subject here is the parents in this particular documentary who seem to regard having children as producing someone to look after them in their old age as a form of duty. The children are being denied their childhood and having far more responsibility heaped upon them than they should have to deal with. A child of 8 attempting suicide because she can't cope should get the message across loud and clear that all is not well here. If someone mistreats a dog they usually end up being banned from keeping dogs. If people mistreat a child and the child is taken into care because of the way they are treated by the parents then it often happens that if the mother has another baby, if nothing has changed in the home then the new baby is also taken into care to prevent him or her suffering as the previous child/children did. For the sake of the children I do believe this is the best course of action. I believe these parents are selfish and don't seem to have any understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood. Or do we consider the welfare of dogs to be more important than the welfare of children? I sincerely hope social services will keep an eye on this family and that the welfare of the children will be top priority. And I still think these parents should cease to reproduce. |
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I think what Mancie is defending is the basic right for blind people to have childen.
Taking this case individually, blind or not, I don't think they were caring for their children adequately and as has been pointed out there are many able sighted people who are just as bad. But many, many other blind parents provide loving caring homes for their children. |
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It's this particular family I'm talking about who shouldn't have children not blind people in general - as you say Gayle there are many blind parents who love and care for their children and there's no earthly reason for them not to have children. There are deaf parents who have hearing children and those children may not be able to speak to their own parents or at least not be understood by them but they can still learn to speak from other people. No reason for deaf people not to have children. No need for people who cannot walk not to have children.
Children can be and often are a great help to parents by being able to see something a parent can't see or hear something a parent can't hear or reach something that a parent in a wheelchair cannot reach but that is totally different to this family where the children are under such an awful strain and have total responsibility for their younger siblings. They must worry about what's happening to them when they aren't there. It's been mentioned earlier that some children have been taken into care for the most illogical reasons like those wild accusations of Satanic cults, or indeed the couple whose IQ was below average but the father had a full time job and the children were always well cared for, loved, clean and well-fed and making the normal progress expected of any child. Yet these children who in my opinion are being abused are still with the parents who apparently plan to go on producing more. For the sake of the children I just can't believe that it's right for them to do so. It must see heartbreaking to couples who try and fail to have children to see others mistreated. There are many children who act as carers too but whose parents still love them and care about them too so it's responsibility but in a mutually caring environment. Even so those children get respite help. |
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We also have to remember a couple of factors
Young girls can be a bit dramatic - moving a few clothes to them is tidying the whole house! It was Channel 4, who let's face it, aren't renowned for their positive editing in this type of documentary. |
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I see you misquoted another post by another member in order to criticise him. Not a very intelligent way to win an argument when the original posts are there for all to see. |
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I didn't see it Gayle but the friend of mine who did was quite horrified by it and I think it was more than just moving a few clothes. Mine grumble about having to do that, or their turn for the washing up. Who cared for the babies in this family though and changed nappies? They were not changed all day when the older kids were at school I was told one child fell and hurt his (?) lip but the mother didn't respond to the crying until prompted to do so by the camera crew. What mother doesn't react when a child cried in pain? :( Anyway I'm not the only one in this thread who felt that the parents reasons for having children were selfish and that they don't behave like people who deserve to have children. There are at least 3 others of the same opinion. |
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I agree with you Willow and I did watch some of it but it was actually too sad to watch it all. I'm playing devils advocate to some degree!
All I'm saying is that Channel 4 can be a bit on the sensationalist side. I'm not saying that they fabricated everything, just that they don't necessarily provide balanced reporting. |
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I'm damn sure if Channel 4 had made edited footage to blatantly lie and make me look like a totally selfish, incapable parent they'd have had a law suit on their hands! I would move heaven and earth to clear my name. |
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I agree with you, Gayle, about Channel 4 but from what I saw this programme was not manufactured or particularly manipulated. This was a couple who were full of self pity and totally irresponsible. They weren't reading from a script and the children's blank look and general air of neglect wasn't put on for the TV crew.
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Willow.. i'ts plain for all to see that you have the best interests of the children as the priority.. but I did not misquoute you or Grego... you say the parents of these children should "not be allowed "to have more children.. again I ask you how would you enforce this?.I can't think of to many options so what is yours?
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I really do think people at a higher level should be able to step in and say enough is enough. |
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How should it be implemented? Social Services could do as they have done in the past and take any new babies they may have into care before any more problems arise - based on the treatment of the children they already have. |
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I think Mancie is just disagreeing for aguments sake, which isn't a bad thing, accyweb would end up like burnleyweb if we all agreed on every single subject (oopps I said that out loud didn't I :o ) ......... but if you really do believe, hand on heart Mancie, that this couple that already have six kids should carry on at the rate they are breeding I'd love to hear your reasons why?
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I don't mind him disagreeing and having a different point of view, that's fair enough. Gayle was putting forward a possible alternative viewpoint and that's a valid thing to do even if I disagree with it I respect the right of someone to have a different opinion.
What I am objecting to here is the fact that Mancie is claiming that I have said things which I have not said and would not say. If he would bother to read my post again he would see that what I said referred to disabled and able bodied people alike. It's their treatment of the children I object to, not their physical capabilities. |
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Trouble with anything these days & pinicle of any debate is that rights asways infringe on other rights - right or wrong they'd be & cause of much trouble these days :rolleyes:
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Thanks for settling the argument Willow.. the problem I have with this thread is people saying they "should not be allowed to have any more children".. if you say the children should be taken away at birth then fair enough.. but when the statement is "not allowed" I was wondering how you can restrict two human beings from reproducing... the only way I can think would be by force..forced separation of these two..or by a forced operation of some kind... sounds nasty dosent it?... I have not misquoted anyone..."not allowed" means stopped from doing something
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Oh yeah, I can see were your coming from mel, this couple have the 'right' to have as many children as they like but surely the kids have the right to enjoy their childhood. It really is such a shame for them, childhood is short enough as it is. |
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Yes the kids right should prioritise over these incubators!! |
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By all means disagree with anything I have actually said but do not accuse me of saying something I haven't in order to argue with me and belittle my point of view. |
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Willow.. you said they "should not be allowed to produce more"... its what you said.. no misquote..again I will ask you how you would impose this?... what do you mean by saying "not allowed" to produce more?.. to have the born children taken away at birth is a valid option but you did say "not allowed to produce more".. you still dodge the question.. how would you stop these people producing more kids?????
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You are now carefully changing the subject. I shall not respond to this as you have not acknowledged that you accused me of saying two things which I have not said.
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I'm not that clever Willow.. I'm not good at manipulation... people have posted stuff on this thread that clearly says this couple should not be allowed to reproduce.. in some ways I agree.. but when asked how this should be enforced they bottle out.. "not me" .. wern't me that said it... you said it! (its in the bold letters)...if I've taken your words the wrong way I understand...but please don't say I misqouted you.
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Perhaps then you are not clever enough to read and understand what I actually said.
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Yeah.. perhaps
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If they had, had 1 child and weren't able to provide basic care themselves then I would have the opinion that they had the right to try being parents ...... but to go on and have more .... |
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OK.. yet again I will make the point that people have not only said this couple should not be allowed to keep children.. which is a valid opinion.. but posters have said they should not be allowed to produce more children.. now.. can we have an answer to the question...... how would you stop this couple from reproducing more children?... stop avoiding the question and give an answer!
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You can't stop them! If she went throught 9 months of pregnancy and then childbirth just to have the baby taken from her I'm sure she'd soon get fed up!
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Oh come on Mancie it's not draconian measures. I'm going to put what I think I remember. No. 1 Downs is an hereditary condition so why should any child be born knowing it's going to have that condition. No. 2 Although they can be part of a married couple, yes by law, I think they can be forced to be sterilised or terminate a pregnancy.
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You are joking.. humans can have surgery by force.. when did this become within the law..? the only law I know of is when a person is sentanced to death.
"it's not draconian measures".. no.. just ones of those things.. get over it How can it be legal to sterolise a person? what sort criteria allows this?... beware the blue eyed blond ayran race bods are about! |
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You keep going on about the rights of people to have babies Mancie, but what about the rights of the children? We are talking about helpless babies here, not some inanimate commodity. It's nothing to do with Nazism it's to do with protecting children from a life of Hell. Are you seriously saying that the rights of everyone to have children should take precedence no matter how they treat or mistreat them?
If people had babies and forced them all into child prostitution/pornography/violence would you still insist they should be allowed to have more and more? I thought we'd abolished slavery in this country. |
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somebody is talking out of there bottom!!
and its not willow! |
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I think you are right Tinks. Downs Syndrome people are sterilized if they marry.
I haven't seen the programme but after reading this thread I decided to download it to watch tomorrow. Your comments are pretty sound, Willow, no family should exist in this way, or increase it, disabled or no. Further comments later. |
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I can find nothing that says forced sterolization is legal under UK law.
Willow asked "Are you seriously saying that the rights of everyone to have children should take precedence no matter how they treat or mistreat them? If people had babies and forced them all into child prostitution/pornography/violence would you still insist they should be allowed to have more and more?". Thankyou for making your views plain. No I am not!... but this couple (undesirible thay may be) don't beat or sexually abuse the children nor do they force them into criminal activities. The childrens rights must come first and we have laws to remove children that are being abused as may be the case in this family. I think the idea of forced sterolization is abhorrent..I can see an argument for it in cases of the criminally insane. If you feel strongly about the forced sterolization of certian individuals why not start a petition?.... looks like you would find quite a few Accy Webbers to add thier signatures!:) |
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There is more to child abuse than beating them black and blue. You can't see the outward signs of mental and emotional cruelty but they are just as damaging. An eight year old tried to commit suicide. Please think about that before deciding her parents rights are more important than hers. |
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There is one point though - again playing devil's advocate a little - at what point do you decide?
If a blind couple or disabled couple announce they want to have children do you refuse them that right on the basis that they may not be able to cope? Or, do you allow them to have children and then take them away? I'm not arguing for either, just want to know what you would do? We have the great advantage of hindsight in this instance and seem to agree that these parents should not have children but where is the line between their human rights and the rights of the children (unborn or otherwise) and at what point should it have been drawn? Also, would we draw the same line at the same point for another couple? The problem that I'm getting at is that the social services have to make the decision about that line day in day out. Again in hindsight they've clearly got it wrong but by responding to the outcry from this case they may draw the line earlier next time and be equally as wrong depriving a loving (blind or disabled) couple the right to children. |
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Of course they should be allowed to at least try Gayle but the social services should step in were any family are having difficulties. OK, so the selfish parents aren't having difficulty but the poor kiddies that are trying to raise their parents offspring sure as hell are, or one of them wouldn't have tried to take her own life at the age of 8. I don't think the woman should be sterilised though, no-one should be forced to endure a medical precedure they don't want ... but she shouldn't be allowed to have any more kids, they should be taken from her at birth so as not to burden those little ones even one. |
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Isn't being allowed to have children worse though - going through 9months of pregnancy only to have your child whipped away from you? |
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It's not fair, simple as that, she she shouldn't be able to keep having kids that her children are having to raise. |
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Well. assuming the woman doesn't just give birth at home without any medical involvement surely it starts there and continues with the midwife and health visitor who can then advise on any extra help they need before it becomes a problem. I'm talking here about decent people who actually care for their children not about people who just want to produce children as slaves to serve their needs and wants.
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I don't know what it is but the more I think about it the more I do actually think it has just been sensationalised for tv. I wish I'd seen the programme to have a more informed opinion. |
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It's not just the teachers though. Who looked after the babies after the birth if the mother is incapable of basic care? Were the midwives not a bit miffed at having to care for the babies? Surely the question would be asked "who's going to help you with the baby when you get home?" Did the midwives feel it was ok to send the babies home into the care of children?
The health visitors visit the home regularly, were they happy with the scene of young children being the main carers of younger siblings? |
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Yep and the more I think about it I'm coming round to exactly the same thought Gayle
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I've just finished watching it and I feel that something doesn't quite ring true about this programme. The eldest daughter looked like she was about to burst into giggles every time she was spoken to and she looked a lot older than twelve.
As for the mother, she didn't seem to be with us for most of it and I found it a little strange that she didn't know she had miscarried. I also noticed that she kept a blind eye on the ash at the end of her ciggie! Daddy managed a can or three whilst the mayhem was going on in the other room. I just can't believe that those children would be left to sleep where they fell or that the nine year old should be subject to such a miserable life. It's either a wind up or Social Services ought to be sued for gross neglect. |
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I wish I had actually seen it now people are mentioning discrepancies. My friend who did see it said that the mother was not totally blind but could see if something was right in front of her face so maybe she could vaguely see the ash - and she'd know where her hand was with the ciggie in. Perhaps the girl was giggling at the prospect of life improving now outsiders could see what it was like? Does anybody know if it will be shown again?
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Nursery Schools are quite good at picking child abuse etc up, unfortunately for legal reasons they don't usally get the credit they deserve. My family in particular would like to thank Livingstone Road Nursery for their vigilance in spotting this in a case we were connected with, this was after the Social Services who advised the courts in this case, and on it's advice made a near disasterous decision on custody.Without wanting to elaborate to much (for obvious reasons) this has now been rectified, thank's again to all concerned you know who you are. Apologies for thread wandering, Ianto.W.
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I do wish I'd seen this myself because I'm getting lots of different impressions now about the whole thing.
I will modify my views based on what I've read in this thread. IF the care of the younger children was solely the responsibility of a 12 year old and a 9 year old I believe that is too much for them to have on their shoulders and they need help. I have a 12 year old daughter and she is perfectly capable of doing most housework and of changing a nappy or two if the need arose, but to have the responsibility of the whole family is more than I would expect of her. Aren't there laws about how old a child has to be before they are allowed to babysit? IF the younger children/babies are left unchanged and unfed when their older sisters are at school this is neglect. IF neither parent can see then I would worry about what happens if a toddler gets into danger - how well protected are they from drinking bleach for instance? Or from poking their fingers in an electrical socket? My friend said one of the children fell and his/her lip was bleeding but the mother didn't react to the crying until prompted to do so by the film crew. Even if she could not see does she never wonder why they cry? IF the parents had indeed said that they plan on having more children to share the work between them and to look after them in their old age then I would say they need to be taught that is not what having children is about and they should be discouraged from having more for those reasons. IF Social Services has not previously been involved with this family I would question why and feel that they need to be very closely involved from now on to make sure that the whole burden doesn't fall on the children and to educate the parents about things they can and should be doing for themselves. I would also question whether there is any extended family who could help and if the parents have any sort of social life where they interact with other parents. |
Re: Aged 12 And Looking After the Family
Excellent post willow, it sums up my thoughts too with not seeing the programme.
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