Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

What do we all think?

Is it just blatant theft from a band or artist? Or are share sites an excellent marketing tool for bands and artists?

Are they a way of hearing music you wouldn't normally go out and buy?

Would you be encouraged to go out and buy CD's of the music if you like what you hear or have you saved yourself X amount of pounds by downloading it?

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

It's certainly not stealing. If you download a music file, the owner still has the original, theft is when someone takes your TV and you then can't watch it. It is a breach of copyright though.

I personally have a huge thing over the way the music industry (through the name RIAA) pursues its 'goal'. Firstly, they seem to think that if you wern't able to download an album, then you would buy it. Which is COMPLETELY wrong.

A lot of people download music rather than buying it, true. However, if they couldn't download music im 100% sure many of them wouldn't be buying all those albums they have downloaded. So the music industry makes up a lot of its figures when they talk about how much has been 'stolen'.

I'll buy independent artists music, I hate buying music from major record labels, a very small percent goes back to the artist and the music labels back people like the RIAA who pursue websites like allofmp3.com who are completely legal in Russia, the RIAA is trying to implement American law in Russia, its stupid.

Another thing is DRM, you can download music legally, but its full of technology stopping you from putting the music YOU purchased on to cd's, or your mp3 player, or for example only letting you copy it a few times.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

this is how i see it, if it was stealing then there wouldnt be sites like limewire on the internet would there..........simple as that

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

I agree with most of your opinions there Cyfr :)

They are illegal Flashy, the music industry tries it's up most to get them closed down. Was Napster one of it's casualties? The main legal music download site is iTunes isn't it?

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

its stealing

do care

NO

the internet has provided teh means for peopel to get back what they have been ripped off .

when cds cost 15 quid a throw it was let slip that after the artist had been paid and all teh packaging etc and manufacture the total cost of making that cd was 99p which they sold at 15 quid

i dont have a problem at all downloading music for free , those that do then the answer is simple " dont do it " but before anyone gets on their high horse be sure that you have never recorded songs off teh radio , copied an L.P to cassette , used tape to tape or own a dodgy dvd or vhs copy because if you do then you are just as guilty as everyone else

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Can someone please say what chavs said word for word then I can answer lol! It seems I'm always disagreeing with him these days .... I don't want him to feel like I'm picking on him

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If it's the major record labels as Cyfr has said, it doesn't have that much effect but when it's Independent music, that is their lively hood chav. It's like you going to work for a month and not even getting paid minimum wage for it

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

simply put

what goes around comes around

teh music industry ripped us off for years but technology now allows us to make up for it by getting music free


since the internet became more available and with the introduction of programs liek limewire, kazza , etc etc the price of a cd has fallen simply because the record companies have been forced to so realy the only form of competition the record companies has ever had is teh internet becaus eit has forced them to reduce prices , without the internet we would probably be paying £20 upwards for a cd now

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

But what about the independant artists and bands that are making music to pay the bills?

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

they should get propper jobs :D


just an aditional thought

teh record companies and movie companies put that much pressure on govenments to stop piracy that they managed to force new laws through american congress and our govenment alone just to protect their proffit margins , more money has been spent prosecuting school children for downloading music than what has been spent stopping child abuse and other nasty crimes ( if your child gets caught downloading music you get the fine )

money talks

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

there's a song in there somewhere chav

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Ive not bought a CD for about 3 years apart from TaDah. Not stealing i dont think but do know people who will not go near copies.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Here you go, I corrected most of his spelling mistakes, I hope you don't mind


its stealing

do care

NO

the internet has provided the means for people to get back what they have been ripped off .

when cds cost 15 quid a throw it was let slip that after the artist had been paid and all the packaging etc and manufacture the total cost of making that cd was 99p which they sold at 15 quid

i don't have a problem at all downloading music for free , those that do then the answer is simple " don't do it " but before anyone gets on their high horse be sure that you have never recorded songs off the radio , copied an L.P to cassette , used tape to tape or own a dodgy dvd or vhs copy because if you do then you are just as guilty as everyone else

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

LOL! :D

I do agree with chav on most of it. I download alot but I also have a pretty impressive CD collection so I don't feel any remorse downloading songs.

Like Cyfr I also buy direct from an independany artist or band were possible, but when it comes to bands and artists supported by a major record label I hate feeding the money grabbing fat cats.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Yes it's stealing.

There are a lot of child porn sites out there. Drug user forums. Gang discussions. They all alright because they have a few websites ?

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

THE SOFTWARE TO GET FREE MUSIC ISNT ILLIGAL , HOW YOU USE IT IS

sory caps was on and too lazy to type it all again which thinking about it by the time i typed this little lot out i could have redone it all and taken less time

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

I download at alot of music for me...not for anyone else....I dare say some of the more wholesome posters on here will say it is stealing but at the end of the day we the public have been getting ripped off for years and years with the prices of cd albums compared to other countries...so what goes around comes around...and some artists benefit from downloaders...gnarls barkleys 'crazy' was the most downloaded song of 2006 and the first song to go to no.1 on downloads alone..this was before actual retail selling...if your an artist and you do it right it will work for you...
and I couldnt tell you the last time I bought a cd album...

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totally agree with Chav on this , this copyright business is a load of cack , why the heck should Cliff Richards still be making money from some song recorded 50 yrs ago , or loopy Yoko still making money from some song her dead hubby wrote 40 yrs ago , I look at a song the same as a piece of art (painting/sclupture) that the artist sold for 20 pounds 30 years ago , now 30 years later the guy is famous and the subsequent owner sells the painting/sclupture at Sothebys for a million , does the original artist get a cut ....no way ....... another example of how cocked up the copyright laws are .......no way can the song ....'Happy Birthday to you' ...be used without permission in a film or stage production without paying fees to the copyright owner

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Neil chuck, when you get 2 minutes can you go and correct my glaring spellings in post #15 that's what happens when you try multitasking. TIA :D

Like I say I'm a down loader, but just for arguments sake if you were skilled in work that commanded a high price would you still have the same opinion if the guy next door was offering the same service for free?

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I dont download music but thats only because I dont know how to! I'm not against it even though I can see the argument for and against it.

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I don't download music to save...but I have listened to music over the internet...sometimes it has just been to decide if I like the album enough to buy it...and I have bought music because I have heard it on the net.
I don't think I would feel comfortable with downloading music to keep. I feel that the artists must have some kind of remuneration for their efforts....and yes, maybe in the past we, the music buying public have been ripped off......but two wrongs don't make a right.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Would you also steal say a car, because that same car is priced more cheaply in Europe?:D

It is a dilema.

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its no dilema to me i download music i,m a theif.:D

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I don't really download music, but I have watched illegal copies of DVD's, so I'm not whiter than white, but just because you feel are being 'ripped off', is it justification for what to all intents and purposes is stealing?

If someone was caught nicking a loaf of bread from ASDA, would their excuse that the same loaf at Tesco's was cheaper, therefore they were being 'ripped off', stand up in court?

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its just the same as buying summat that fell off the back of a lorry, which i would happily do if i wished. really its just mind over matter. I dont mind,You dont matter.:D

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Not being a goodie goodie here, but I really wouldn't buy anything that fell off the back of a lorry.

'Fell off the back of a lorry' is really just a euphemism for it was more than likely stolen by some drug addict scum, who'd boken into an old ladies house in the middle of the night. It's good people buying knock off stuff that keeps the theiving scum in business.

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There's really very little that could be said to be a victimless crime, if any.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

'Fell off the back of a lorry' is really just a euphemism for it was more than likely stolen by some drug addict scum, who'd boken into an old ladies house in the middle of the night. It's good people buying knock off stuff that keeps the theiving scum in business-------------------------------- no rindy when i was young it meant exactly what it said, as any jack brad driver or customer will testify, its people that dont know any better that twist things to suit todays ways.:rolleyes:

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Yeah it was funny in the old days, all that stuff kept falling off the back of lorries, but when it was offered for sale none of it was ever damaged.;)

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How much stuff can a business afford to lose from the back of lorries before it starts to affect the company then the employee's? Where I work had a couple of lorries stolen full of finished goods , that hit the company hard which could affect my job or loss of it.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

This is the thing, if you take a loaf of bread you are stealing it because ASDA/TESCO can't sell that loaf, because its now in your position.

It is not the same thing when music is concerned unless you are actually stealing cd's from the shop, its a breach of copyright.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Bands and artists believe it's stolen though Cyfr, you have their product without paying for it.

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I think it how the law defines possesion, If you download music its an abstract item, it can't exist on its own as it needs something else to persist (Hard disk, CD, etc) hence the music item is a copyright issue. If you stole a physical CD from Music Zone(Just to link this back to a thread where we were all symapathetic to Lindsey and her collegues) then its theft.

One issue with this debate is that people rarely see the big picture(to use some management clap trap). you feel aggrieved at the price of CDs so you download it. This stiffles new talent as the music labels don't make as much money so can't gamble of lesser known talent. You also put the whole music retail trade at risk and people like Lindsey lose jobs/careers/houses etc then when you need as specialist to help you they aren't there anymore.

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Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Willow, how many 'random' items have you downloaded? as in just chosen soem random name and thought I'll listen to that. Also there are places like MusicBrainz where people recommend other things that you may like so there is no reason to do it illegally, likewise Amazon etc do similar recommendation lists

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

I'm very random Ian - that's the fun of it.

I'd never heard of MusicBrainz but just being recommended something isn't the same as actually hearing the performer. I've seen some of the Amazon "if you liked that you'll like this." recommendations but some of them are not remotely like the thing they are linked to.

So I find someone who has something obscure that I already have and like and I have a look at what else they go for - especially if they have a few totally unrelated things that are also favourites of mine. I wouldn't just go out and buy another thing they have though. I'd like to listen to it to see if it is something I'd like or not. Then I might toddle off and try to buy it - and probably find out it's unavailable anyway because it was deleted 20 years ago :D

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

half teh stuff i download i wouldnt buy , teh internet is better than sitting with my finger on the record pause button each week when teh top 40 is on hoping to stop recording before the DJ starts talking

i do have quite a dcent CD collection that is paid for of artists i realy like but i wont buy an album for teh sake of 1 song and wont buy cd singles because lets face it who likes swapping cds around when driving its much easier to make a compilation cd of your favourites ongs off teh net

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Whether it is stealing or a breach of copyright is a moot point. If you download the music that is on a CD illegally you are not buying the CD and thus the seller is not making a sale. If you walk into a shop and pinch the CD the seller is still not making a sale. It’s a technicality but the end result is the same. The seller loses a sale! So it is a breach of copyright and also stealing.

People would have a different outlook if they were the musician whose work is being pirated and few justified royalties coming in or the shop owner who isn’t selling as many CD’s as expected.

I do not download music primarily because modern pop music is a load of old tosh. But then it would be to an old fogey like myself. My musical tastes didn’t progress past about 1985.

Like most other people I have recorded from the radio and even from a friend’s record so I too am a thief in that respect. But the resultant tapes never lasted very long.

If my kind of music were available as an illegal download, would I download it? The point is academic because as far as I know it isn’t but then CD’s of older music only cost around a fiver and you get the artwork and the write up about the artists, which you do not get with a download. So I would probably not download.

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http://www.jamendo.com/en/ I think this is a great idea. You can download independent artists songs for free without stupid DRM, and donate if you really like them.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

This is the same as P2P downloading, Jambutty. Users on programs such as Limewire share their own music (can be ripped off a CD they bought onto their computer) and other people download copies of it through the program.

With other programs on the net such as Bittorrent, you can download whole albums with sleeve notes & cover artwork, so you can burn your own complete copy.
The music industry has been running a complete swindle for decades; charging way too much for recorded music. I have to agree with Chav on this one in that the industry's karma as come around to get them.
The internet is taking over the major label's territory and they don't like it; getting internet download sites shut down is just the last shameful action of the majors.
Music is now belonging to the actual artists more, not less.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

I can see where you're coming from, but I really disagree with it. Thats the same reasoning the Recording Industry Ass. of America (RIAA) use.

Every person that downloads an album does NOT mean a record label has lost a sale. A lot of people simply will do without having the album if they couldn't download it, because they don't wish to pay the £16 or whatever it is for a cd these days. This is why the RIAA's facts are so wrong, because they use that reasoning.

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Oh Yeah, I forgot to mention, as Shakermaker says, the RIAA and others are trying to get sites that do not even host music content closed.

There are sites which users submit 'torrent' files to. A torrent basicly tells a downloader's computer where it can download from. But the torrent file in itself does not contain any music. A hoster can't practically regulate all of the content posted, so because it contains SOME copyrighted content they get shut down because they can't afford a legal battle!!

Digital Cameras are used to record SOME films in cinemas illegaly, should we be banning digital cameras?? It's really pathetic what they can do with so much money behind them.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

While I have no love for the record companies, it is stealing pure, plain and simple. You are taking someone else's property without permission and without payment.

Just because Landrover vehicles are a total rip-off, that in no way justifies my taking one. Same goes for the recording industry.

Recording artists have the right to control how their work product is sold, just the same as folks who produce anything. If you don't like the price, don't buy it!

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Id rather go out and buy the CD, dont like downloading!

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When you buy a CD shakermaker you own the disk but you do not own the music on it. So if you allow tracks off the CD to be downloaded via this P2P thing you as well as the downloader are in breach of the copyright act and the P2P site for aiding and abetting. The music industry has every right to get the P2P sites closed down.

The sleeve notes and cover artwork are also copyrighted so copying those is illegal. Unless you pay for them of course or there is a note to state that all copyright claims have been waived. An unlikely scenario.

I get back to my original premise – if it were your work that was being copied and you were losing revenue your view would be different.

No one is arguing that we haven’t been overcharged for records etc for decades, we have, but it doesn’t come into the equation in spite of people trying to put it in. “Milud, I made a copy of the CD for my friend because the record industry have been ripping me off for years with their inflated prices.” Try it as an excuse in a court of law and it won’t hold water.

Every illegal download is a POTENTIAL sale lost Cyfr. If someone wants something badly enough they will go and buy it, inflated prices and all. Some will not.

If my reasoning is the same as RIAA’s then they have got it right within the law.

Quote:

Digital Cameras are used to record SOME films in cinemas illegaly, should we be banning digital cameras??

I assume that you really mean digital camcorders. That’s a nonsense comparison, but yes if you also ban CD and DVD recorders. It’s not the hardware that is being used it is the purpose that the hardware is being used for that is the contentious issue.

I accept that no matter what arguments are put forward you will not agree with them until you stand on the other side of the coin. So let’s just agree to disagree.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Ok - what about songs you can no longer get on CD's, even compilations, especially from 1 hit wonders and the like. You want it, but can't buy it any more !!! so whats the arguments then in these cases ?? - still don't download ?? - I don't think so - I'd download it - what would you do???

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

thats a good point mickmc i have a vast collection of music, and most of the stuff i require thesedays if definately unavailable to buy from any shop.so if i manage to snare it on the net. i will.

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Bet you can't wait for my answer eh? Guess what,I don't download,I consider it stealing,I will own up to having a copied disc of a cd I couldn't get anywhere,someone burnt it for me and it's such bad quality I haven't listened to it twice !
If you want to have no cd shop ,then fine ,carry on copying. I will not be joining you.

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I don`t download because, A ; I hav`nt a clue how to do it and B ; I dont want to listen to my music on a computer. I still frequent record shops and also buy direct from artists websites. This can sometimes be the major way an artist earns his income and they are usually thankful that people are still out there supporting them.
The problem people have with record companies is that they keep introducing new formats to play music. The old ones become obsolete and we all pay again for music the expense of which was written off long ago.
When I first got my CD player, I vowed never to buy anything I already had on LP, and you can guess the rest.

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1985? Why then as a cut off point?

Come on tell us, admit you were a Duranie.:eek: :D

http://www.durandurantimeline.com/im...ssKit_1981.jpg

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Just cause you download it on your PC doesn't mean you have to listen to it on the PC. You can burn audio discs for use in teh HIFI/Car/etc or transfer to an MP3 player like an iPod or there are even boxes that will stream teh audio over a wifi network to any music system

Likewise with changing formats, copyright wise as long as you own the original you can transfer/backup to any other format. e.g.. those old 78's can legally be ripped to MP3 for your iPod as long as you keep teh 78s.

having said that I don't download stuff, the P2P networks ar full of fake/virus/trojans which will punish you if your security isn't 100%.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

I can only answer for myself but no, it wouldn't. I'm not a careerist in the slightest.


At the end of the day if people want to borrow/copy/download music they will find a way. EMI or Sony can never stop that.

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Well I'm just glad of P2P which helped me find things I would never otherwise have heard of or bought. How can I buy something if I don't even know it exists? Yes, I shop for them at Music Zone. :)

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

So if you were a painter say, a good one at that, you'd be quite happy for people to print copies of your work and sell them?

Leaving you starving in your garret, without seeing a penny of the cash that people were prepared to pay for your work?

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

i thought like that---at your age shaker.:rofl38: ah the innocence of youth.;)

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

bought a cd at your place last week linds, but if stuff is not available i will download and much of the old stuff aint. perhaps thats part of the reason shops close,which sure as hell aint your fault or mine.;)

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

that was the point i was trying to make in an earlier post , an artist (painter /scluptor) is only paid once at the first sale , any future sale of the item the artist loses out .
If i buy a painting and make multiple copies and either sell them or give them away its my business not the original producers, should be the same with music

Re: Downloading Music. Is it stealing?
 

Actually in the case of art nearly always the copyright for future reproductions stays property of the artist, unless that's a condition of the sale.