Royal Navy , prisoners in Iran
 

re. The 15 Royal Navy personnel recently taken into custody by the Iranian Govt. for supposed border violations, anyone got any ideas what the British Govt. can do to get them released ? seems to me any type of rescue attempt is out of the question since they are probably being held in 15 different locations around Tehran .

One thing puzzling me is why no action was taken by the crew of the 'mother' ship HMS Cornwall , seems to me a frigate should have been well enough equiped and armed to intervene when the Iranian gunboats arrived on the scene . :confused: :confused:

Re: Royal Navy , prisoners in Iran
 

the problem we have with iran is that because of americas greed for oil we commited all our money and troops to a unfounded war and now a genuine threat to us has arose we are screwed

iran has been a pain in teh arse for months with its nuke program and we could do sod all to stop it and iran knew it so they stuck 2 fingers up at the usa and england because they knew damn well neither country could stop them because they were tied up in iraq

because of tony blair and bush we now have another set of looneys with nukes

thats teh way i see it anyway

as for getting our guys out i highly doubt that will happen, keep your eyes on teh net for the next batch of executions

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Well we know the Yanks would have started World War 3 over it, maybe the Captain decided that was a bit OTT.

They will give them back soon enough. They are just playing games. Iran is not stupid enough to harm them.

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if they do decide to harm them though would they club them to death seen as they are seals ?

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The problem is although it would seem like the logical choice to defend them from Iranian capture, if we had of done it could have escalated in to a much greater situation, im sure they will give them back pretty soon.

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The way i see it= Iran is just taking the P**S, they will be released unharmed when theve gained the maximum propaganda for em. which is of more use to their government.

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Let the Ragheads have their hour of glory, all right thinking nations will see it for what it is, an exercise in propaganda, I wonder if the Iranians had been caught in a similar situation, they would have exercised the same restraint as the commander of HMS Cornwall, who is to be commended for his good judgment in a very dificult situation. Rule Brittania.

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Of course Iran are taking the P**S.. would they have taken American personnel? I don't think so!.. the yanks would have aircraft carriers and battle ships steaming towards Iran's coast as we speak. The Iranians could not give a toss about meek threats/requests from Britain.

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The captain of HMS Cornwall should be court martialled for dereliction of duty.

All warships have navigation radar, which will track just about anything a few yards from the ship to around 25 miles away. In my day in the fifties and sixties the navigation radar could track a man walking along the dockside and radar will not have got worse but better since then.

On HMS Alamein out in Cyprus waters we did exactly the same as HMS Cornwall. We sent out boarding parties to inspect shipping in the area for contraband and our battle class destroyer stood by less than one quarter of a mile away. The watch on deck would keep a visual eye on the boarding party plus a radar watch at all times until they were safely back on board. And we did much of our boarding at night. The Cornwall incident happened in broad daylight.

I would expect that Cornwall’s Standing Orders for boarding ships would include at least keeping a radar watch on their boarding party and the surrounding area with an emphases on the surrounding area. The radar would have displayed the oncoming Iranian craft long before they were in a position to surround the boarding party. So how come no one spotted them and challenged them? A six inch shell whistling over their heads would certainly have gained their attention and made them think twice about proceeding further.

I feel that it will be more than a few days before the 15 sailors and marines are released.

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jambutty, I have to dissagree with you, the commander of the Cromwel will have been in touch with the powers that be, and would have been instructed accordingly, better to loose face than start sending shell's accros their bows. I personally think we are involved with enough as Afganistan and Iraq are quite enough conflicts to be involved with, whist I admire your patriotism, in my opinion the captain/commander exercised restraint for that in my book he should be commended, the day's of 'Mad Mitch' are long gone.

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Depends on the rules of engagement. If only the politicians would let the military do their job. The sailors in question should not have been captured. Just another propaganda coup for the Iranians.

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Just when you thought it was safe, President Bush's Special Envoy to Accyweb appears again!! :D

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Bullseyebarb , wellcome back girl , you have been missed

:cool: ;) :D

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Been in Italy since mid-February. Guess I missed a lot, eh?

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Great to see you on line again, I've been asking about hope you had a good rest now as we say"give em Wigan". ps your not gondola are you:D

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The point is Ianto.W. any warship at sea will have its main radar operating. No ship would put to sea without them especially in what is to all intents and purposes, a war zone. From the pictures of HMS Cornwall that I have seen you can see three radar aerials. The small one farthest for’ard is the navigation radar and the other two cover the air and sea around the ship. All three would have been operating.

The Iranian flotilla of gunboats didn’t appear out of the blue. They had to travel from somewhere and would have been visible on radar for at least 25 miles and that means that it would take at least half an hour to travel that distance. Lets face it a flotilla of small boats racing across the sea towards HMS Cornwall from Iran had to be considered as at least threatening. They were unlikely to be coming to invite the skipper to a cocktail party.

OK! So sending a shell across the bows of the approaching flotilla maybe a bit olde worlde but a ‘star shell’ a few hundred feet above their heads would certainly have got their attention. In any case what was to prevent the captain from manoeuvring the frigate to put it between the advancing gunboats and the boarding party vessels? Unless in doing so he knew that his ship would be in Iranian waters. And from that it follows that he also knew that his boarding party had strayed.

The rules of engagement would have been the same as they have always been bullseyebarb – if attacked or threatened defend yourself.

The captain has a duty to protect the ship and its crew and he failed to take any action to protect the boarding party.

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I VERY much doubt the rules of engagement would normally be to defend yourself in this situation. Firing warning shots is doing everything possible to escalate the situation, which is not what is required.

The commander deserves praise for his restraint as this could have turned out to be a much greater crisis than it already is.

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One of the things which has surprised me over the past few days, while reading about this story, is the fact that in Iran (or Persia, as it used to be known) We British are more hated and reviled than the Americans. The Persians, afflicted with third world paranoia as they are, tend to regard the UK as the single source of all the ills that ail them.

Their dislike and distrust of us apparently dates back to a time when Persia was a buffer state between the British in India and the government of Imperial Russia. It was of course all our fault that the late Shah's father was deposed in the thirties and again all our fault that the late Shah turned out to be such a repressive monster when we restored him to the Peacock Throne. We raped their miserable desert country, stole their oil and refused to say "please" and "thank you". I don't suppose it helps either that we permit our women to go about bareheaded in public and don't wear beards. Sadly, it appears that this sorry state of affairs is not about to be changed by any of the bluster of Tony Bleuuurgh, the United Nations or the EEC; according to Michael Wood the historian, Persians still amaze and astound each other with outraged stories of what a complete and utter sh*t Alexander the Great was. Talk about bearing a grudge!

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[quote=Acrylic-bob;404329]One of the things which has surprised me over the past few days, while reading about this story, is the fact that in Iran (or Persia, as it used to be known) We British are more hated and reviled than the Americans. The Persians, afflicted with third world paranoia as they are, tend to regard the UK as the single source of all the ills that ail them.

Their dislike and distrust of us apparently dates back to a time when Persia was a buffer state between the British in India and the government of Imperial Russia. It was of course all our fault that the late Shah's father was deposed in the thirties and again all our fault that the late Shah turned out to be such a repressive monster when we restored him to the Peacock Throne. We raped their miserable desert country, stole their oil and refused to say "please" and "thank you". quote]

Sorry Acrylic-bob , but I beg to differ , Having spent a number of years living in Iran , (living under both the Shah's and the Khomeni regimes) I can say that the Iranians 'hate' us no more than we used to hate the Germans , But they have something called National Pride , something the English seem to have lost, unless it involves kicking some poor sods head in at a football match . The average Iranian wants nothing more than to make a better life for his family than anyone else in the world . there used to be a joke on the streets of Iran , that if you look under a Mullahs beard it says made in England , a cynical but true view of British meddling in the affairs of an independant state . You can hardly blame them for wanting some recompense ,the numbers killed in action during the Iran-Iraq war were astronomical and these casulties were caused by British/American supplied arms.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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There speaks the voice of a veteran sailor whose knowledge of naval warfare could be written on a pinhead using a thick, felt tipped pen. Have you ever seen a British warship live? When did you serve on such a vessel?

The rules of engagement for the British armed forces are the same today as they have been for hundreds of years. If threatened or attacked defend yourself unless facing overwhelming forces where to fight would lead to unnecessary loss of life. This option was last selected in the Falklands when the outpost of marines were outnumbered and outgunned so they, quite rightly surrendered but only after the Governor told them to.

A handful of gunboats armed with large calibre machine guns is hardly an overwhelming force of a modern British frigate.

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Sorry Acrylic-bob , but I beg to differ , Having spent a number of years living in Iran , (living under both the Shah's and the Khomeni regimes) I can say that the Iranians 'hate' us no more than we used to hate the Germans , But they have something called National Pride , something the English seem to have lost, unless it involves kicking some poor sods head in at a football match . The average Iranian wants nothing more than to make a better life for his family than anyone else in the world . there used to be a joke on the streets of Iran , that if you look under a Mullahs beard it says made in England , a cynical but true view of British meddling in the affairs of an independant state . You can hardly blame them for wanting some recompense ,the numbers killed in action during the Iran-Iraq war were astronomical and these casulties were caused by British/American supplied arms.

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No need to apologise for having a different point of view steeljack. There would be no debate if we all held the same viewpoint. Having never visited the country I must defer to one who has.

However, on the question of armaments, British and American manufacturers may have supplied both Iran and Iraq, at the same time and saw nothing unethical in doing so. But surely the manufacturers cannot be held responsible for the way in which their products are used. The appalling loss of life on both sides is, surely, the responsibility of the combatants. After all, in any disagreement there is always the opportunity to sit down and discuss disagreements - isn't there?

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People have successfully sued tobacco companies.

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People sued successfully because the tobacco companies told lies and witheld information. I don't think that armaments manufacturers ever said that their arms could not be used to kill people. Indeed, I believe that they make potential body count something of a selling point.

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It's all very well to praise the Command for using restraint, but it is Iranians who have trespassed into Iraqi waters and taken hostages... This is nothing less than piracy.
If I was a member of the patrol taken prisoner while my "Command" basically stood by and did nothing but observe, I don't think I would have much faith in my Commanding officers in the future!

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You can call me a veteran if you wish, but my views were the same as the commander from the 2004 incident.

I'm just glad you were not in charge or we might be engaging in a war with Iran right now.

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If they are not returned within a couple of days maybe we should be. We might as well use those old Tridents before we replace them.

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If I were one of the captured 15 sailors and marines or indeed the rest of the crew of HMS Cornwall I would be asking why the ship was 8 miles away from the boarding party. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6501555.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/6502805.stm Even at her best speed (30 knots plus) the ship would take at least 15 minutes to get back to them and in that time a lot could and as it turns out did happen. To move the ship that far away was at best stupid and at worst criminally negligent especially as it was known that the Shatt al-Arab border between Iraq and Iran had been in dispute for decades – although an agreement had been reached in1978. To compound the folly Cornwall’s unarmed Lynx helicopter was stationed above the boarding party but had to return to Cornwall as fuel was running low. After the 2004 incident where half a dozen marines and sailors were arrested for allegedly straying over the Shatt al-Arab waters border into Iranian territory, the Cornwall’s captain should have been aware that a similar incident was always on the cards.

Vice Admiral Charles Style said the sailors had been "ambushed" in the Gulf after searching a vessel and their detention was “unjustified and wrong”. Well he got the last bit right but just how do you ambush someone in the open sea? Just where are the trees, large rocks or buildings where someone can hide unseen. Have the Iranians invented a teleportation machine and their gunboats just appeared out of nowhere? No! Of course not! That’s silly! So they had to come from somewhere and in doing so they would have been visible on the Cornwall’s radar screens long before they reached the boarding party. How come no one yelled out, “Half a dozen unidentified boats approaching the Indian merchant vessel at speed!”

If HMS Cornwall had stayed on station within half a mile or less of the merchant ship being boarded this incident would not have happened.

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If the border location is disputed then by there own action Iran must be entering Iraqi waters. On that bases either lift them or treat it as an invaision and blast them out of the water. Ok not ideal but its better than all this diplomatic cow pats thats flying around. The way these marines and sailors are being used is boarding on human rights violations and is well out of order. Its about time this was sorted once and for all with or without force or UN intervention because seeing what is on the gogglebox is sickening to the core!:mad:

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Although the invasion of Iraq was not sanctioned by the UN a could be seen as illegall.. the service men and women patrolling these waters are doing so under a UN mandate.
This incident brings up the question as to what happens when the coalition forces leave Iraq... it would be no suprise to see Iran simply walk in and take over Iraq.

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Hope that aint a prophesy Mancie it was cause more trouble than we have now.

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You mean a bit like what the English did to Scotland and Wales and lots of other places ..........:eek: :eek: ;) ;)

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Ouch!!! :eek: By the way the bought Scotland as they couldnt kick the backsides into defeat. :D

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What I'm saying is that Iran have conjured up this incident to let it be known that they are the "big boys" in that region and they will do as they please.. and there are no disputed waters ..as far as Iran are concerned its all there waters.
As for the English taking over Scotland and Wales then yes.. I reckon Iran would do pretty much the same thing!