is John Wayne dead ?
 

ok , maybe the title of this thread is a bit off ......but in light of recent events here in the US , the mass killing on a college campus in Virginia , talk came up at dinner tonight amongst a group of friends about how each of us would we have reacted in a similar situation , I made a statement and was roundly condemed for saying that I thought the young men who were involved in this tragedy were a bunch of wimps , it seems from news reports that the only guy who made any effort to confront the gunman was an old guy 70 odd years old , I asked where was the spirit that the folks showed in fighting back on the United flight that crashed on Sept 11 in Pennsylvania when the terrorists tried to take over the flight , but it seems to me that someone could have tried to intervene whilst the guy was re-loading multiple times , but it seems most of the guys were either hiding under desks or jumping out of windows .
So , what do you folks think ? am I being too harsh or not ?
What would I have done ? I dont know , but I would hope I would have tried to do something......

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

well i think you are

details are only just emerging of what ppl did etc - there are still folk too injured to talk properly

there was a story in the local manc paper of how some egyptian student who was injured badly made movement on purpose so that the gunman wud turn to face him and shoot him again rather than other people in the room who were injured and alive.

Randy Dymond, a civil engineering professor, said Shaalan was credited with distracting gunman Cho Seung-Hui to save the life of a fellow student.

Dymond, who attended a service for Shaalan Thursday, said the Egyptian was in the first classroom Cho attacked and was badly wounded. Cho returned to the room twice to search for signs of life.

During one of those incidents, a second student who was uninjured, was playing dead. When Shaalan noticed Cho making a move to shoot the student, the Egyptian made a "protective movement to basically decoy the killer into thinking it was him making any kind of sound instead of the survivor," Dymond said.

Dymond declined to give the name of the student who survived, but said the student wanted him to tell the story "so that the family of Waleed understands the sacrifice."

Shaalan's mother broke down when she heard Dymond's account.

yeah does beg to ponder why a group of guys or someoen try not to rush him. fair enough theyre students but uni kids not school kids.

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Mani , this is the first i have heard about this guy , so please understand I wasn't "digging" at anyone personally , I was just making a generalization that the 'American' media has been playing up the old guy (and his holocaust roots , yawn) as the hero of the tragedy and to my knowledge there has been no mention in the American media of Shaalan Waleed , credit to him and condolences to his family

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

sorry but i think i would too hide under tables.... i have never been near a firing gun, it must be a horrible sound , i dont care if i was called a coward, at least i would be alive, i suppose the only time i would do it, is if my kids where involved, and i thought they where in danger, THEN i would do anything to protect them!!

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I like to think I would do something, I have no dependants and I am physically able, I don't know about heaven/hell the afterlife but if the way I die is saving others then I can't think of a better way.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

An unarmed student, facing a barrage of gun fire, doesn't really have much of a chance for heroics.

Self preservation must kick in. I'm sure if any of them had the chance to unarm the gunman, they would have done. To label them as cowardly is very, very cruel.

Think about the acts of heroism that occured on the hijacked planes at 9/11. They reportedly did try to over power their captors, but only when they knew they were probably going to die.

It's like when you read of an old lady, who died from injuries sustained after being mugged. With hindsight, she shouldn't have fought back, and got beaten to a pulp, she should have left the scum have her bag, which could have been replaced.

I bet each one of those students would have tried to over power the gunman at Virginia Tech, if they had a chance, and to suggest otherwise shows a complete lack of sympathy, and understanding of human nature.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

cant agree steeljack, it depends more on the mindset of the person being attacked, was once attacked by a guy with a knife could have legged it,but either adrenalin or stupidity kicked in n i didnt, i dont regard that as (john wayne) nor would i knock anyone that legged it,people are all differant i imagine a gun is more frightening than a knife,but both are life threatening so i think i would probably do the same again, after thinking about this i guess that makes me Stupid, not John Wayne.

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I'm sure with hindsight nearly all the survivors must be wishing they'd been the one to do the hero bit & disarm the killer,but one never knows how'd they'd react until in that situation.I think playing dead is a good option for survival,after all trained soldiers have done it in battle so why not innocent & untrained students.

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Let's not forget John Wayne was actually a namby-pamby actor.

He did actually apply to join the U.S. navy before he went to college...but was turned down!:D

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No chance,,,,,if it had been me,that chap would have had some VERY sore goolies ,,at least if i snuffed it, i would have tried even if i failed .......:mad:...................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............
Let's not forget John Wayne was actually a namby-pamby actor.


ohhh he was my hero ...

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I totally see where you are coming from Granny C. We should stand up to the scum, and they shouldn't be allowed to win. However, given a choice between you losing your bag, or not having you at all, I know which I'd prefer. After all, who would remind us that it was the first day of the month?:D

If I was a parent of a student at Virginia Tech, I'd much rather have my son or daughter safely back home with me, than dead in a coffin, with a floral tribute reading 'died trying to be heroic'.

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I think it is worth remembering that events such as this cause such shock to the system that literally paralyses folk with fear....rational thought becomes impossible because there is a sensory overload........loud noises, horrific sights,....sights that the students wouldn't ever expect to be faced with...so they had no coping mechanisms. They were like rabbits caught in the headlights.

While I am all for standing up to aggressors.......there isn't much you can do with an armful of books against an automatic weapon and a guy bent on exacting some kind of revenge...for the perceived sins of a society that he didn't feel able to belong to.

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Self defense 101.....throw books, (and desks for that matter), at the shooter. Anything to knock him off balance so that you have a window of opportunity to get the upper hand, (or flee the scene if you can). The element of surprise can often turn the tables. I doubt very many of these students had any prior knowledge of what to do should they find themselves in such a terrible situation.

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As I said......they had received no preparation for this. That is the key. Most people breeze through life never thinking that something like this might happen to them. I am not one of them.

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The other thing worth remembering is that the people on the plane who tried to overpower the assailants during the 9/11 didn't know each other....so what you may say.....there was still an element of shock. OK, that I will grant you, but I am sure they were mature men who had had a little more experience of life. These were just kids (although maybe they would not agree with that) who were seeing their peers gunned down...people they had perhaps sat next to in class....done homework with, socialised with.
What a terrifying experience they take into the rest of their lives.
Faced with a similar situation, we ALL think we know what we would do.......but none of us really KNOW. Situations happen that tend to make cowards of us - even if we think we have a plan.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

They were young, in their twenties mostly.......but not kids. Age is not a barrier to preparedness.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Just to add to the post immediately preceding this one.....here's the take of two Canadians. Eric from Ontario might be interested in their comments. Gosh, does Quebec still count as Canada?

http://www.pierrelemieux.org/artvirginiatech.html
http://www.suntimes.com/news/steyn/3...TEYN22.article

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

So Bullseyebarb, are you inferring that the students could have done more to
protect themselves? I'm not really sure what you are getting at, that is why I ask that question.
I know that if I go somewhere unfamiliar, I seek out the available exits...mainly in case there is a fire.
Who was responsible for protecting these young people on their campus? (I won't call them kids, now I know they were in their twenties)
Have any lessons been learned from other episodes like this, where gunmen have indescriminately killed students?

And just a thought.......aren't we being a bit insensitive to be discussing what the students MIGHT have done to save lives.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

No, we aren't being insensitive. That's one of the problems, actually. Ultimately, I think you have to be responsible for yourself. I wish these students, teachers, and campus security guards had had the opportunity to arm themselves appropriately. Unfortunately, that was denied to them. This restriction did not, however, deter the psycho who gunned them down.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Yes there's Barb, in her bunker, armed to hell, with enough food and water to see her through months of seige, and damn it she gets stung by a wasp. It goes septic, develps into blood poisoning, and puff, she's off to meet her maker.

Bet you didn't see that coming.:D

http://www.webweaver.nu/clipart/img/...ee-cartoon.png

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Garinda, sweetie, could you possibly be more trite?

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Oh dear, mad lunatic gun men hold no fear for her, but a well aimed quip, and she's floored quicker than a one legged girly with St. Vitus's Dance on an ice rink.:D

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Trite and boring. Ooh, double threat. Care to make it a triple?

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Bullets hold no threat, nor sticks and stones, just words.

Pity, I'd have thought you'd have more testosterone to fend off petty insults, and my poor slings and arrows.;)

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Bullets I take seriously. But for your remarks, no testosterone required.

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Gee you're so touchy.

I'm glad you're not armed, you might shoot me for having a differnt opinion to your's.

Oh, I forget you are.

Better shoot me now, I certainly don't want to sully myself my body tackling you.:D

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

If you dont laugh at life you cry,,,,,,,,,you dont know whats round the corner,,,
I think the words of Eric Idles song are very true,,,,and i am not being flippent.....(silly word that)

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Nah. Couldn't be bothered.

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See. Sometimes you drop the tough guy act, and become just so feminine.;)

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Probably because I am. Still packing heat, though.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

That'll be the menopause dear.

Try a nice cup of Catnip tea.;)

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Way, way beyond that.

Say, do you usually stay up this late?

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

I do when people flirt with me.:D

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[quote=garinda;414130]I do when people flirt with me.:D[/quote

It's an art form down here in the South.

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[quote=bullseyebarb;414133]
Well fiddle di dee Mammy. I'd better get me off to bed, before you spike my mint julep then.:D

http://cghs.dadeschools.net/african-...gwtw_mammy.JPG

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Yes, I agree that we all must take some responsibility for our own safety...but just how far can you take this? And shouldn't someone in Authority be responsible for the collective safety of the students?

Personally I would not like to carry a weapon, because it can be turned and used against me....and I would hope that in a vast public establishment there would be some form of security the required me not to have to worry about a gunman.
Though I would still acquaint myself with the fire exits and procedure.

Maybe I won't move to the USA after all.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Please explain what you mean by "his holocaust roots- YAWN" I dont undertsand what this means. Please clarify if these are the rantings of a fool are an anti semitic arse or both?

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Niether , just someone who is fed-up with the one sided media reporting, where anyone who 'dares' to say anything about critical about the policies or actions of Israel is condemed as being anti-semetic, and being subjected to constant emotional blackmail over 'our' collective guilt for allowing the operation of death camps in the first half of the last century. (incidentally where is the universal condemnation about Israel having nuclear weapons ? surley they live in the same area which the Govts. in Washington and London want to make nuclear free zones)

Life is tough, the jews aren't the only people who suffered from ethnic cleansing, ask the folks who live around Hirosima and Nagasaki (oh I forgot, the were just slitty eyed Japs) or maybe the Armenians, (remember them ....they were force marched out into the desert .....and none came back). I don't see much being done except hand-wringing and crocodile tears for the folks in Darfur (a region of the Sudan in Africa) where thousands are dying every week thru starvation.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Interestingly enough, Quebec's school massacre at the Ecole Polytechique de Montreal sparked a provincial and national movement against the possession of firearms.

And indeed Quebec is still integral to Canada. The leader of the Federal Liberal party is Stephane Dionne. Before Harper the last two PMs were Quebecois. In a recent Provincial election, the separatiste PLQ ended up in third place after the Liberals and a new rightish party, the Action Democratique.

Oh, and our Govenor General is a black francophone woman from Haiiti.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Margaret, you have far more faith in the public establishment than I do. How likely is it that a policeman is going to be there in your hour of need? I'd much rather read stories like the one in the following link than see another Virginia Tech.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,267540,00.html

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Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Facts On Gun Deaths In The USA



The Americans value their constitution and the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment deals with the right to bear arms. Here is the price that ordinary Americans are paying for the privilege



- 8 children a day die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns



- since John F. Kennedy was assinated more Americans have died from gunshot wounds at home than died in all the wars of the 20th century



- Osama bin Laden would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.



- Murder rates in LA, NY and Chigago were approaching the hightest in the world (30 per 100,000) until moves were made in late 20th century to restrict access to guns to teenagers. (The NRA wants these moves reversed)





http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000473.html

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

If your sick of one sided journalism- read a better paper.

Genocide is abhorrent in each and every case throughout history- the comment you made however suggests that your are particlulalry 'bored' with hearing about the jewish holocaust specifically. Perhaps you think it has too much press. To use the term 'life is tough' in connection with this subject I find frankly staggering.
You 'dont see much being done' - well get off your backside and do something then. This is what makes me sick- people who moan and groan about the media, about politics, about society, crime, anti social behaviour, young people etc etc etc but dont actually do anything about it.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

The movie "Bowling for Columbine" provides some interesting views of American attitudes to firearms. And it also shows that there is no unanimity in America on the question of firearms. It would be wrong to lump all US citizens in the guntoting redneck camp.

I remember reading in one thread about that the first two ammendments were next to one another for the reason that they are somehow related. To go off topic for a moment, let's look at the issue of flag burning. I find it ironic that those who tout the 2nd ammendment are often those who support a law banning the burning of the American flag. But the right of Americans to burn their flag is guaranteed by the first ammendment. To pass such a law would be to undermine basic freedoms of speech and expression. Why do so many Americans want to emasculate the first ammendment, yet still keep sacrosanct the second?

In my opinion ... and it is opinion only ... the second ammendment like the one dealing with the quartering of troops in private homes (I forget the number) is an anachronism. When there was the potential need for a true citizen army, which is distinctly differnt from a volunteer army, the ammendment had value. I am certain that the founding fathers did not intend that Americans should be able to arm themselves with sophisticated firearms which endanger the lives of innocent civilians.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

I know. It's a fatal flaw in your law.

For Eric and garinda.....you have perceptions but your facts are wanting. For definitive stats, try "More Guns, Less Crime", by John Lott. I doubt anyone has studied this subject more than Mr. Lott. He has an interesting web site also. www.johnrlott.com

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Bullseyebarb , this is especially for you , and would welcome your comments http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../27/ngun27.xml its a news story from the Daily Telegraph about women police officers in the UK complaining the guns they being issued are too big for their hands :D :D

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Typical government......one size fits all. The male officers must have hands as big as hams!

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

And now we have definitive stats ... what are those; nine out of ten doctors leaves one? And don't get the idea that Canadians don't have guns. We do; I own two shotguns and two hunting rifles, and I am presently restoring a WW1 vintage Lee-Enfield. The guns that are difficult to aquire are hand guns, and the kind of assault weapons that are available in Crackerjack boxes in many US states. And with the guns we have we do not usually shoot people. Check out the murder rate in Detroit and that of Windsor on the Canadian side. These stats are interesting, if not definative. When the City of Detroit has more murders in a year than the whole of the British Isles, something is rotten in the state of Michigan.

When people carry handguns in the glove compartments of their cars, it adds an interesting dimension to road rage. I have a bumper sticker a friend sent me from LA, it reads: "Cover me, I'm changing lanes." The murder rate in the US should suggest that something is wrong. And then there is the state murder rate; America is the only western first-world country that routinely executes murderers. I suppose you are aware that Canada always refuses to deport anyone to the States if they are likely to face the death penalty. That point alone gives me immense pride in my country. Anyway I am rambling off topic.

Nothing personal eh:) I just happen to believe as strongly in my point of view as you do in yours. After all, that's what democracy is all about.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Having just read through the previous postings on this thread I have found the differing opinions on display very interseting. As a criminologist I have read three of Mr Lott's publications and must say that you could do with finding a better source to support your argument. His research is deeply flawed in both its approach and its qualitative and quantitaive findings. The conclusions he draws are widely discredited.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Eric , I think you are wrong on this point , a guy called Charles Ng was repatriated to California a few years back and is now waiting his turn along with over 600+ other killers on Californias death row ( an outrageous number since all have been found guilty under the Law , but sleazeball lawyers and lack of will by elected politicians keep finding ways to stop the sentances being carried out ) ;) ;)

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

I remember that case ... and I believe I remember that there was some quirk about it. I would like to trust to my memory, but I might have to resort to google. Good point tho'. I think that it may have to do with his commiting crimes in Canada too.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

By whom? Apparently, they are not acquainted with cities like Kennesaw, Georgia, where citizens are required to have a firearm, (unless a felon or have some religious objection, of course). www.kennesaw.ga.us/index.asp?NID=137

When are you going to wake up and realize that self defense actually does deter crime?

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I never take anything personally, Eric. I have relatives in Canada. Cousins in BC and cousins, plus a 90 year old aunt, in Ontario. Oddly, those in the lefty East are very much in my way of thinking - including auntie, who has plenty of moxy left, believe me.

Assault weapons, my you know what! A definition, please. We can't buy them here legally. Only the criminals manage to get their hands on those. You really must learn to distinguish between law-abiding citizens and felons. See my post to Remedi above.

Detroit....gang central. And let us not forget the drug trafficking. Ditto any major metropolis.

Any idiot who goes postal on the highway and pulls a gun belongs in jail......for a very long time.

Punish the guilty, not the innocent.

Some crimes are so beyond the Pale, they deserve the death penalty. I'm with Steeljack on this one.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Punish the guilty, not the innocent.

Some crimes are so beyond the Pale, they deserve the death penalty. I'm with Steeljack on this .--------------------------------------------------------agree entirely with that part of yer argument, pity MPs aint got the balls to do owt about it.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

re . the Death penalty , I've said in previous posts that I am pro , in favour of it , but then I ask myself , would I be in favour of it if it was one of my family who was in the dock looking at the rope/gas chamber/ sparky etc. same with abortion , I'm in favour of 'a womans right to choose' , but .....if the unborn was one of my own, how would I feel then ? seems a bit hypocritical to be in favour of one and against the other since the end result is essensially the same . :confused: :confused:
would welcome others views

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I think when General Electric developed the technology to give us those amazing images of children in the womb, it pretty much turned the argument around. You cannot put the convicted in the same category as the unborn.

Re: is John Wayne dead ?
 

Before I start to disagree with evrthg you say:D I do hope that your relatives enjoy living in the great white north. I particularly envy your cousins in BC (we often call it British California). I hope that your aunt is happy in Ontario, where, if she should need medical care, she will get the best in the world at no cost. I had to get that one in.

I really have no idea where the "lefty east" is. In Ontario we have a liberal govt. Ontario liberals are like Northern Democrats. But the
Conservatives (like Northern Republicans) are very strong.

I am surprised at the cavalier way you dismiss your major cities ... some of them anyway ... have you given up on them? Is it ok that drive by shootings, 1000's of homeless sleeping on the streets are features of the major metropolitan areas of the richest and most powerful country in the world? Canada's largest city (Toronto) is the fifth largest in North America (Mexico City is the largest) yet, tho' it has some of the problems of large urban centres, it is clean and safe.

The idiot who pulls the gun on the highway must have access to that gun in the first place.

The question of punishing the guilty is not at issue. What is, is the element of revenge in capital punishment, not to mention the fact that innocent men and women may die on the scaffold or in the chair. The State must not exact revenge. Revenge is passionate, highly charged and very personal.

Anyway, it is a beautiful evening, the open road calls, so I will hop onto my motorcycle and go blow some of the cobwebs out of my mind.

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is that a sly dig at California ? sounds a bit like those bumperstickers we often see on the cars in the State north of us " Don't Californicate Oregon"

;) ;)

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Californicate a new one on me but get the gist. Hell they are doing well with it are they not.

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Maybe because of the West Coast location ... and compared to BC the rest of the country (apart from the far north in my opinion) is geographically challenged. They are both seen as paradise on the Pacific. Did you realize that BC's leading cash crop is marijuana?:cool:

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LOL, it just seems we get a lot of bad press from the other 49 states as being the land of "fruits, nuts and flakes" :D :D :D

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Oh come now Steeljack, all 49 states don't say that about you as far as you know. At least Hawaii must appreciate California "diversity!" ;) :p

Brian

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My Ontario relatives hate the winters!

I think the U.S. has the best medical care. I have sampled socialized medicine and found it lacking. Maybe that's why Canadian doctors come down here to work and your citizens often cross the border to get attention. We even get Canadians way down here in the south seeking medical care.

There are few true liberals left. If your Ontario "liberals" are anything like our Norther Democrats - then they are left-wing socialists.

I don't dismiss our major cities. I just don't choose to live in one of them. Those with the worst problems generally seem to have one thing in common. The people in charge are Democrats.

You are too hung up on the gun issue. Fortunately, our law-enforcement people view the law-abiding citizen, (armed or otherwise), as part of the solution rather than the problem. All of these feel good solutions on the banning of guns will not keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. Only the law-abiding will obey the law.

Capital punishment is not revenge, it is justice. No-one wants to send an innocent person to death row and goodness knows it takes long enough to carry out the sentence. Many years, in fact. Plenty of time for appeals, etc., Plus we have DNA now. If a life sentence really meant life, then I think we might reconsider. But it doesn't in all cases. Plenty of examples of people being paroled and going on to kill again. So, take your pick.

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Americans no doubt would like to think that their Canadian neighbours are like Americans who don't quite get it right (or right wing). The majoritory of Canadians ... I don't speak for the opportunistic and selfish Canadians like Conrad Black, but the ones who vote election after election to maintain our way of life ... believe that medical care should be available to all, that the poorest among us should get the same treatment as those more fortunate. We believe that the unfortunate in our society should not be completely shut out. We believe that those in the world who need are help, victims of events beyond their control, should also benefit from our immense wealth.
I should also like to point out that though most of us like our southern neighbours as individuals, most of us do not like America and what it stands for in the world. Canadian voters destroyed one political part for being too cosy with Reagan. Mulroney's conservatives were reduced to 4 seats in our House of Commons because of their pro-American policies.

We are not the fifty first state and we never will be. We hold different values. Through the governments we elect, we try to make sure that all in our country and many around the world share in what we have. As a country, we are blessed. Western Canada is floating on a sea of oil, as is the offshore of Newfoundland and Labrador. Uranium, potash, lumber, nickle, bauxite, natural gas, fresh water .... and on and on ... we have it all. But we don't use our wealth to throw our weight around. We do not storm all over the world trying to shove our system down the throats of those who do not want it. Our power is not in our military might; we are respected in the world, not feared.

This does not mean that we will not fight if necessary. Canadian troops are fighting as bravely in Afghanistan as did their great grandfather's at Vimy Ridge and the Canal du Nord, and as their grandparents did at Dieppe, Juno Beach, and in the liberation of Holland.

We respect our laws. We have Charter of Rights and Freedoms which guarntees us all the basic rights Americans have. We do not walk around in our communities armed to the teeth. Yet we have a very low murder rate, and, in fact, violent crime is on the decrease in our country. If people need guns to protect themselves from their fellow citizens something is wrong, sadly wrong.

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Eric, I think we are getting off the original subject of this thread and will soon be scolded by the powers that be. I am sure that you and I will have plenty of opportunities down the road to discuss the many blessings/drawbacks of our respective countries as new topics bring us back into focus.

However, insofar as socialized medicine goes.....please visit Cyfr's thread entitled "The NHS is ridiculous." I just made a quick post on it and added a link that you might find of interest.

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Ta:D NHS? Is that like OHIP?