Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

An 11 year old boy was shot dead in a Croxteth pub car park tonight allegedly by a youth on a BMX bike.More signs that we are losing control of our streets....how long before we import this in our area?

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

At this rate we will be as bad as bad as the American cities. What the hell could a 11 year old have done to deserve a bullet???? :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: It is safe to say that we are losing the battle with these young thugs. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

thats awaful were abouts is that

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Just been on the news, he was taken to Alder Hey Hospital but was dead on arrival, how horrendous is this news? It was only the other week we had a thread going about letting kids enjoy life, well I said then and I will say now they need watching!!

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

thats very true bernadette we cant let our kids walk the streets without getting hurt.......... no justice will come from this either

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

two kids 14 & 18 apprehended
were the heck do they get guns
at that age

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

There is no shortage of guns on this planet, and they are not hard to get a hold of, even in countries like England and Canada which have fairly strict gun control laws. Our experience in Canada is that most types of crime are on the decrease; however, violence, particularly with firearms is on the increase, particularly among black, poor urban youth. This being the case, some difficult questions pose themselves. And with difficult questions, there are no easy answers: "hang the bastards," and "send them back where they came from," are just not good enough, for many reasons.

To put things in a not too reassuring perspective, the city of Detroit has more murders annually than the whole British Isles.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

very safe to say spug,like Eric says there are no " Easy Answers" the only place i can envisage to start is the source i.e.(upbringing) cos until respect and discipline is taught- Forget It, its a hell of a long haul,but summats gotta happen.:mad:

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I agree Cashman get the basics right;then all will follow.
But where will the guidance come from none of the wishy washy political parties seem to actually do anything.
Meanwhile anarchy grows.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

This is so sad. An eleven year old lad shot dead. God.
Terrible incident, my condolences to his family :(

Later that night BBC news had some muppet blaming the incedent on "gangsta rap lyrics".
Please let's not become like the Americans, being so ignorant as to start blaming meaningless song lyrics for serious crimes like this! (Marilyn Manson caused the Columbine shootings you know).

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Of course one could argue that "gangsta rap lyrics", violent video games, violent movies, violent news clips from battle zones, WWE, etc may have an effect on the young that it doesn't have on more mature people. That is: we know it is fiction and entertainment; the young may tend to confuse fiction and reality.

But in America things may be different. Not too long ago they had a president who thought Star Wars ws real enough to base a defence system on, and that the Village People's "In the Navy" would make a great recruiting song.

However, I do agree that something has gone wrong with parenting, and maybe the education system.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

In that case the blame would go on the youths' psychological problems and/or parental responsibility, would it not?
Because obviously not all young people have this kind of confusion, as if they did everyone who played GTA or listened to 50 Cent would be off shooting people all over the gaff.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Well a start would be to stop rapping em up in cotton wool and treating them like an endagered animals. Give an inch they take a mile comes to mind but in todays society its a case they will take a hundred. Parents cant keep them under control because the law and busy bodies stop parents from sorting it out!!!! Lets stop pussy footing around and if they want to behave like animals treat em like animals!!!!

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I don't think it is really a simple equation: hear song ... kill someone. But I do think that the confusion is there. More like a confusion of mixed messages: they get one set of messages from parents (most parents anyway) and another from assorted media. I don't think we should forget the internal messages either. All who are not suffering from some sort of mental/psychological condition know what is right and what is wrong. And I don't believe that it is up to governments to solve the problem. Even a good government couldn't do it. It is up to the parents. Govts should only interfere with parenting in extreme cases of provable abuse. They can go a long way in restricting access to firearms and access to the nastier drugs. But my parents and my grandparents passed their values on to me; and a lot of them stuck. I may not have turned out the way the wanted: but at least (I believe) I know what is right and what is not. If they could do that sort of things back in the bleak days of the late 40s and early 50s when just putting food on the table was tough enough, surely it can still be done today

:) Here comes my optimism and my idealism; time to go.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

It's a nice idea Eric. A good one if parents had the morals from which to teach.
But with benefit mongers & compo culture in the UK forever on the rise, these type of parents are void of values to teach children!

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Yes as stated we are a generation to late the rot has set in,start again with the younger ones entering school.Discipline,respect and learning the difference between right and wrong should be a staple lesson taught by people who are not tree hugging left leggers.
Forget boot camp for teenagers start afresh!!

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Gosh I could go off in many ways here but just to make one point. Who is to teach the next generation morals, values, respect? Many of the soon to be parents, by many admissions above, have not had that upbringing. How can they teach it to their children? I agree it's not the government's problem to solve and most of the churches have failed in this role (IMO).

Brian

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

We could reinstate some of the old ways in schools.Give teachers and Heads the backing to punish wrongdoers.to be able to permantly exclude disruptive violent pupils and yes bring back approved schools for the little dears who wont toe the line.
Though no angel as a youngster I was in no doubt of the retribution that would be dolled out by teachers and Police if I was caught doing wrong.
Time to abandon the carrot method of rewarding wrongdoers with holidays and Play Stations (for not transgressing) and put a little fear into those who at the moment intimidate 'normal everyday folk'.
The money spent on cajoling young tearaways beggars belief...spend it instead on more Police patrols and prisons,one example I witnessed;was when a youngster in the P.R scheme had a teacher plus an assistant teaching him when he turned 'difficult' a phone call summoned a third person who arrived by car and then literally had to pick the pupil up,carry him out and drive him away(possibly to Blackpoool for a treat)
The experiment has failed ...start again!!:rolleyes:

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I don't think that the churches have failed, I think that the idea of god is dead for most people. Not surprisingly the First World War put paid to that for a lot of people, particularly the men who had been at the front, the mothers who had lost sons, and those who had lost husbands and lovers. Not surprisingly, Existentialism flourished after the First War, even tho it didn't begin then. It interests me that parents in tough times, depression and war, seem to instill solid values in their children ... not always, I agree, but a lot of the time. But we don't want to go back to poverty and laissez-faire govts in order to get the young straightened around. Humans are resourceful creatures, (especially when it comes to technological fixes which won't work here). Between giving up, boarding up, arming, and letting the masses go to hell on the welfare train, and instituting some ultra right wing regime that will crush crime and civil liberties with the same jackboot, there has to be at least one middle way.

In case you are waiting, I have no firm idea of what it is.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Eric's mention of the First World War,reminds me of that often repeated excuse.'he came from a broken home/single parent family'
How many single parent familees were there after WW1 and the replay.
How many of these kids grew up to be decent law abiding citizens??
MOST

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Does anybody actually know that the perpetrators of this horrendous crime are from broken homes? It just seems that whenever anything horrific like this happens it is always assumed that this is the case. I am sure single parents and their children must resent these implacations. Surely not all badly behaved kids come from broken homes!!:(

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Agree with that. I know of a few from good homes that are like they are to look cool to their mates. Some of the single parents have better behaved kids than those with ma n pa at home. Those of a single parent accept that there is a limit but some from a stable home are used to getting and doing as they please.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I watched a parenting programme on tv a while back, it seemed to me that the single parents took all the advice on board and really changed their kids behaviour as a result(and believe me it was horrendous behaviour from young kids) whilst the couples just didn't seem to grasp that changes were needed!!:(

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

this is just short of scandalous just shows all the cuts in the police service wasnt plausible torys and labour are both guilty of inept planning .the population at its highest ever .i know lets have cuts in the police force the torys started and labour kept on doing it.its now out of control there thatcher has a lot to answer for she created a greedy selfish society which has caused resentment for the ones left behind.we should cut down on immagration as well as our island is getting a little crowded and will only make things worse we should close the borders and weed[no pun intended] out the suppliers the big men and work the way down scrap funding for all these stupid artistic ideas and diversity programmes and triple funding the police force and take control again or people will be forced into being vigilantes.its like what it says on shakermakers signiture lets police people singing but its alright to walk about shooting people cause you wont get caught cause the police are too busy policing what people sing at football matches its a farce this country is

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

But that well behaved generation brought up the next, who brought up the next, and we end up with the situation we have to day.

Somehow the idea of respect seems to have got lost along the way.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

In my earlier posting,I wasn't inferring that a single parent family is the cause of tearaways,It is however often used to excuse behaviour.
I have just watched the news showing the little lad's heartbroken parents,unfortunately it is becoming an all to regular occurence.
I reiterate nip the bad behaviour in the bud;start with the very young now not tomorrow.
Let's hear some resolution and commitment from Gordon Brown not meanless handwringing.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I cannot believe that someone could post over the importance of this thread.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I think the overall message to all the authorities who are in charge of our well being is 'Get a bloody grip'

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

The government cannot bring your kids up for you. The parents are the ones who teach them right from wrong. Then when they get older - friends are their influences along with tv, radio, newspapers, music, internet etc. You cant blame just one its them all. Im lucky in a way i dont have any kids and so dont have to bother about outside influences on my kids. But i do have nieces and nephews and 3 of them are teenagers 18, 15, and 13. You dont know what your kids get up to once they leave the house to go out with their mates. You only hope that once they are out that they dont forget what you have taught them - to respect their elders, behave, dont get involved in drugs, etc. It's not the church's fault, its not the governments fault, its not the parents fault - its the kids themselves if they do something against the law then they should take the full consequences not see it as a holiday etc. Those kids who have been arrested for this one is 14 one is 18. They are old enough to know what is right and what is wrong.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Maybe a lot of the kids from wealthier homes are given "toys" (eveything they demand) instead of parenting ... ignore the little ******, shut him up with a laptop ... sort of parenting via bribery.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

You're right, disipline, and teaching right from wrong, should begin in the home.

I'm not talking about this case in paricular, but when young teens are out until all hours, with money to spend on drink, drugs, knives etc., it is obvious parenting skills are somewhat lacking in those cases, to say the very least.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

That could be it Eric. Maybe if they had to earn it like what we did then maybe they'd treat things better and also get a feeling like it is to earn something. I know when i was a kid i was lucky because my dad had his own business and i was spoilt anything i wanted until i was 14 i could have within reason. When i was 14 my dad became ill and had to sell his business and so we didnt have that money coming in and had to earn my spending money. My job was to polish the bedrooms on a wednesday and the living room on a sunday and wash up after tea. If i didnt do it i got my spending money docked - it depended on what i hadnt done to how much i got docked. They only docked it once - i learnt my lesson with that. How many kids get their spending money docked if they dont do anything in the house nowadays. Not many i would guess.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

That and the out of site out of mind attitude of some parents.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

thats what ive been rattling on about for yonks.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

When I lived in Glasgow there was a park across from my flat, there would be ten to twelve year old children in there most nights until two or three in the morning every night. For their own safety, as well as fearing what they might be up to, you'd have thought most parents wouldn't have allowed it, but I guess some just don't care.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I have that problem every Friday and Saturday night and as for their parents then they either dont give a hoot or kids interfere with their social lives. Chances are they dont even know who is with who and what they are doing. If they ask the following day they will get a load of cheek etc about interfering with their offsprings life.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Children have always been up to mischief, it's part of growing up. Nowadays they fear, or more tellingly, respect no one, teachers, the police, or other adults who have the nerve to rebuke bad behaviour if they see it.

I'm really not trying to score cheap political points, but trying to think when we as a nation changed, I think it was in the seventies, and the Thatcher era were only the 'me' generation counts, and sod the rest of society because I'm going to do what I want.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Appologies to all the well behaved young people we have on Accy Web. I know I'm making sweeping generalisations.

Not all young people are hoodlums, it's just that there are definitely more now than there used to be.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

thats it in a nutshell, remember when young some grumpy sod threatened to tell me dad, that was it crapping time, now when this grumpy sod says owt to em, you get so what? F off, or words to that effect kids have NO FEAR of retribution now,at the end of the day,they can prosecute parents, teachers and i wonder whose to blame for that:rolleyes: its fine gordon brown saying i will be tough on the gang culture etc thats too bloody late, you gotta start at home, good parents manage it,so why cant the others? its those that have to fear retribution cos thats the only way they will teach the kids.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

My heart bled for that poor woman tonight. How can anyone explain to her, the reason why her little boy was killed? Maybe, she had strict guidelines for her son, happen the killer's parents didn't care a damn where their son was at the time. Can you just even begin to think how she feels tonight?

My generation was taught respect and, sadly, this has gone by the wayside during recent years. I totally agree with Jen and Rindy......and also reckon first and second generation thugs have led to a third.

Poor, poor family xxxx

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

most are still ok i think, its the lack of respect n violence that has increased, by the wrong uns making society more fearful.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Hope so are we are going to be in deep trouble. :eek:

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

i added a bit to that quote spug.;)

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

So whats the answer - advanced parenting courses for parents to be? Teach respect and good behaviour. What goes on in the home we dont know. We only know what goes on in our own homes not in anybody elses.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

First to Busman, when I say the Church has failed, I didn't come this conclusion just over this most recent tragedy. It is my opinion, that, since the 1960s, the church has lost a whole generation of kids, now adults. No, not all Churches and not all faiths.

Here in America, I've seen people turned off of Churches because of various reasons. Alot is do to overbearance, threats, fear, control, etc.,. Also, many, many churches have failed due to corruption, self-indulgence, and putting all the focus on the men who led them. And then failed them.

Brian

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

When I think of a broken home, it doesn't mean single parent homes in my view. Heck, we've all seen 2 parent homes that were certainly broken. I don't believe it's a monetary thing either. Some of the worst vandals and drug users in College were from upper class families.

To me a home is broken when love, discipline, and consequences for actions are not there. When you have a snotty little brat yelling at both Mum and Dad in the market cause they won't buy them a candy bar. That's broken (IMO). Worse yet (IMO) is when said parent turns around and buys the little thug the candy after all.

Or the "my little Johnny would never do or say that!" Or at recreational sports games the parents that constantly screaming at the referees, the coaches, their kids. Or the kids who never have a parent come see them play cause they're "too busy."

I guess it all comes down to children having good, loving,role models. That can be Mom, Dad, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, Grandparents, neighbors, heroes, etc. Just people in their lives who will teach, love, hug, discipline, guide.

Yes, many of us had none of these and we did turn out fairly okay.

Brian

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

its says on sky that the killer could be as young as 13!!, where on earth do they get the guns at that age!. my daughter is 13 and she says she wouldnt dream of carrying a gun let alone firing one! tuffer laws are needed NOW!!

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

i wouldnt waste a penny on courses for this, i never had one nor me parents/grandparents etc, its just common sense and decency and i think the answer lies in the law/values n human rights laws etc, get the basics right n only then can things begin to get better.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Any One Found Selling Guns Should Be Jailed For Life Put Them On A Island Off The Scotish Coast Along With The Drug Dealers

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Can't see the SNP allowing that to happen..............Siberia???

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Quite right. As I suggested in another thread, we should arrange contracts with third world countries to build high security penal colonies to hold violent criminals and thugs.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I'm not sure that I agree with that. I think from the outside it looks like that but is it not the case that in the 60s there were gangs and bad 'uns just the same as now. Perhaps, the only difference now is that people fight back more, making the gangs and bad 'uns more aggressive. In the glorious olden days (I am being ironic there btw) the police were less likely to intervene with serious gangs - yes, they would have clipped the odd kid around the ear if they stepped out of line, but they were most likely drinking partners with the really bad ones. If you look at families like the Krays (London, not Liverpool but I'm sure Liverpool had its equivalent), the Krays were the law!

So perhaps, turning this argument on its head (and playing devils advocate) the fault is not in the increase in violence but in the increase in policing violence which in turn has allowed smaller gangs to become braver.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

of course there were gangs in the 60s, but was not aware we were talking about organised crime "Krays" and the like, the gangs of teds n the like used to have punch ups, the differance is = with other teds,not kids,n pensioners n the like,something that even evil gits like the Krays would not allow in Bethnal Green,i dont think policing violence will reduce it,you have got to attack the root cause. i would disagree that people fight back more now than way back, in fact i would think Less, cos stabbing,shooting etc could be the end result.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Which was sort of my point - the big gang leaders wouldn't allow anyone to step out of line, so they policed the minor thugs and young idiots.

The police got to the route cause and took away the gang leaders and you've got a free for all.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Yes, there was violence in the 60's, but not of the magnitude and severity that occurs today. Crimes of violence have risen and are continuing to rise. Knives and guns seem to be commonplace. You would see a punch-up on the dancefloor of the Con or on the bus station, but you would not hear of a man being kicked to death simply for remonstrating with youths who had vandalised his car.

The reason, it seems to me, is that you have a large number of people who have been allowed to do exactly what they like both in the home and at school (and I don't blame teachers for the latter - their hands seem to be tied now). Consequently, when somebody tries to stop them doing what they want, they react with the unreasoning fury of a spoilt infant - but unfortunately in the body of a grown adult with terrible consequences for those who cross their path.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

agreed, even now though if the resorces were available it would not make much of a differance,cos the planks in society have given this scum too many rights,or get out of jail free cards.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I'm not disagreeing with you and I think that discipline is a factor at home and at school. But I'm also trying to look at this from a different angle.

When I was growing up, I didn't live in a particularly rough area but there was one family that you didn't mess with on the estate. They ruled the estate by policing it and in a way, defending it. If a young kid stepped out of line they got a clip round the ear. But if someone from outside the estate came in and tried to cause trouble they sent them packing. The estate was actually a quiet, very peaceful estate because of it.

Now, increase that to the scale of large estates and inner cities and you have a 'gang/family' there that everyone was scared of and no one stepped out of line. Ironically, as the Police remove the self regulating gang/family then more thugs started to have a go.

So what has actually happened is that the Police have removed the self regulating force that existed on these estates, thus allowing violence to increase. They have actually removed the top of the pyramid but not got to the bottom of it.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Gayle, I didn't have you down as the Barbara Windsor type! "They wuz real gents, wuz Ronnie and Reggie. The streets wuz safe when they wuz around." :D

Seriously, I can see that it may well be a contributory factor. If you read any books about the Krays, you'll see that many older East Enders say the same. As far as I'm concerned, we should lock up the thugs where they can do no harm for long periods of time, but what worries me is, will others spring up to take their place?

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I think that's precisely what has happened, although not one ruling factor has taken their place but many wanna bees.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

on the same theme a young 20 year old girl attacked last month in Bacup has just died two young people aged 15 and 17 are remanded in custody for the attack which is now murder

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

...it would appear because she was a goth. Five teenagers have been charged.

Meanwhile a passer-by has been stabbed in the back by two teenagers in Gorton, with no provocation.

Just seems to get worse and worse. :(

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I think it is all down to discipline...start young, set boundaries, be firm.
No-one knows their children like the parents. Good role models help too. Teach respect from a very early age, respect for property, their own and other peoples, respect for other people, respect for other ideas. Expalin that respect grows out of respect.

My heart goes out to the parents of this poor boy, but also the parents of the children(for that is what they are) who are indicted for this crime.

It seems like gun crime and gang warfare are the 'road accidents' that killed children in the fifties and sixties. ( what I mean by that, is that children in the fifties and sixties were casualties of road accidents...today children are more likely to be killed in a drive-by shooting or gang warfare).

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

You can't put it all down to lack of gang control. One of the largest contributors to the violence we see today is, in my opinion, the general decline of morals in Society. We live in an age where "anything goes" and there is no protection for the young against the reporting, depiction and glorification of sex and, particularly, violence. It's there in the media, in so-called entertainment, everywhere.

I wouldn't advocate a completely restrictive, completely censored approach but there should be boundaries and they should be adhered to by force of Law. The killers of James Bulger were, at the time, reported to have watched the film "Child's Play", with its attendant violence, the night before the murder. That's no excuse for what they did but it is, possibly, a factor. Turn on the TV and you can always find violence, in some form or another, shown as entertainment and treated as a normal part of life. Even the music industry is part of it, some Rap lyrics are devoted to the violent treatment and denigration of women in particular.

More and more people of all ages, particularly those of more restricted intellect, have come to regard violence and arrogance as the appropriate way of life and, until the country as a whole comes to its senses and returns to some enforcement of moral standards, it will only get worse.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Add to that the 10 year old slashed when he confronted a knife wielding 7 year old lad . So in reality violent kids are possibly getting younger and arming themselves. So where in hell are they picking these ideas and attitudes of behavior to be doing this? Ok violence on the telly, computer games, games consoles, their peers even siblings.

Comments from a rag interviews;

*Youngsters need to be educated from an early age on carrying knives.

*Alcohol abuse among youths is fueling violence and acts as a way to drug abuse

*Using a gun is a cowards way, but sadly, lots of kids carry them.

*Poor parenting and the lack of any real deterrent are largely to blame for this rise in youth gun crime

*Recent horrific incidents bring home the dangers of a self centred society.

Is any of the above true or is it all true with more besides?


(*Scottish Sun)

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I've read through the postings we all have our ideas of causes(and possible cures) for the violence shown by young people.
Currently I wonder if anyone else is aware of the new fad of filming violent acts and posting them on the web for other morons to gloat over.
Supposedly responsible internet outlets are allowing this viewings on a day to day basis.Remember this isn't the latest computer game or movie its real life,that many seek to emmulate and surpass.
As I said time to start again.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Lots of young people watch those sites in local youth clubs and yet lcc block acc web

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Earlier this summer the Accrington Observer saw fit to put on it's front page the story about a local youth biting the head off a chicken, which had been posted on YouTube, and which in my opinion probably encourages more people to do stupid things. Publicity is like a badge of honour to these idiots, a bit like ASBO's have become.

The young man in the chicken incident turned out to be serving in our armed forces.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I agree Garinda,incidently the incident you refer to may counter the oft quoted cure for yobs of giving them National Service,it didnt help this particular example did it?

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

I can say that if his CO found out who did it he would not repeat the act.
That is probably the difference.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Point taken!

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Alas, there is now a culture which has no respect for human life. The rot began to set in during the 1960's. That's when the "me" generation really came of age. Abortion on demand. Welfare state as parent. A lack of personal responsibility. Lax law enforcement. PC. Add to this drugs and gangs. A deadly combination. We should go back to what worked in our past.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

if national service ie conscription was re-introduced, i just wonder how many immigrants would remain in the U.K.:rolleyes:sorry for the thread wander.

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

That's a very good idea Cashy........I wonder if it is as easy to renounce British Citizenship as it is to get it?

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Probably would either apply for and get exemptions on religious grounds , saying their religion was one of peace and they didn't accept violence . ;) or demand to be trained and placed in regiments of other co-religionists :eek:

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

Just wondering what the total cost is for all the funding for Youth Clubs and the like nationwide.This money was provided to encourage youngsters to come off the streets and find useful pastimes.Would the money have been better spent in other areas e.g better policing of our streets.
Even with the facilities provided kids still roam the streets putting themselves and others at risk.
Has the great experiment failed?

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

You only need to look in this weeks observer...two kids chucking concrete slabs off the top of lar-de-dars...slabs were so big that one actually crushed a Ford Ka and wrote it off....

Punishment....Police Caution!

Point is that slab could very easily have killed some young lad walking home from football practice...

Re: Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park
 

The story about the murder and the increasing incidence of violence in the UK made the morning news on CBC (Colonial Broadcasting Corporation). It was a relatively long discussion about violence in urban areas of England. What surprised me is that a suggested solution to the problem is raising the drinking age to 21. Is this all that they can come up with?

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Raising the legal drinking age would not have saved the little lads life.Alcohol abuse is a factor in the usual town centre mayhem seen up and down the country,but so is drug taking.What do we do about that, raise the age limit?
Whilst in Victor Meldrew mode I can only repeat the social engineering that we have seen over the last 20 or so years has failed.
Youth club workers seek to engage youngsters in useful pastimes,exchanging views on life,perhaps steering them in the the right direction.
The reality is somewhat different ;youngsters(as it ever was)prefer a background noise of 100 +Db.They use the clubs as a meeting place and views may not be the only things exchanged.
Then at the end of the session they are released onto the streets and as I have said before they don't all go home to Mum and Dad and a cup of cocoa.
I am not clever enough to have the answers.I can only relate to my own past experiences,I was lucky in the aspect that my parents cared about my behaviour if they hadn't I still got disciplined at school.Then later as I entered employment any youthful cockiness was soon overcome by the reactions of older workmates(many ex service men amongst them.)
Today we seem to have lost our collective way kids rule the roost.
Earlier postings about the breakdown of parental control are correct but this is not the only reason.We are a molly coddled nation,which promotes the idea that you don't have to strive to achieve success,'just collect your dole mate do a bit on the side'.
Not all youngsters are bad,there are many more living worthwhile lives who are a credit to their parents,they will enrich the country.
Unfortunately it is not these who are the worry,it's the Bmx riding hoody,who may or may not be tooled up and heading your way.

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In days gone by the teens would have gone to the church youth club, or the scouts,or the sea cadets.etc......but these organisations are no longer seen as 'cool'...remember peer group pressure on children is huge.
Older guys may get the younger children to carry dangerous items(drugs, knives, guns).....this gives the younger child some kudos, maybe some cash/drugs....and the older guy is safe in the knowledge that the young child will not be prosecuted, or serve a jail term because he is deemed to be under the age of responsibility. I think this has got to change....though I am not sure how. We have to take away the 'glamour/kudos ' of carrying a deadly weapon....again, I do not know how this could be done, but until we do then I fear there will be more young boys and maybe even girls slaughtered in this ugly and meaningless manner.

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Just watched the Liverpool v Toulouse match,what a moving gesture by the club to the young lad's family.Liverpudlians have always been big hearted this reafirms it.

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What was the gesture? I found the people from Liverpool to be great when my grandson was a patient at Alder Hey, the nursing staff were just terrific:)

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BBC SPORT | Football | Europe | Liverpool 4-0 Toulouse (5-0)

His mum & dad wore their everton shirts and they played the z cars theme. No i didnt watch it - im trying to sort out a meeting on thursday.

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The whole crowd applauded the family ,played the Z cars theme and then You'll never walk alone,very emotional.

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agree i have nothing but affection for scousers, spent a fair bit of time in liverpool n always found them funny,but very caring people.:)

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Enough said, You'll Never Walk Alone says everything, I could cry thinking about it.

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Kleenex on its way. :D

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its a shame poor lad,i dont understand how guns are getting into the country and into the hands of kids

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There has been a lot of talk on this discussion, and in others about "what has happened to todays youth." But there have to be bright spots; there are great kids out there. Today in Kingston, 14 yr. old Natalie Lambert swam Lake Ontario. She swam the 57 kilometers from Sacket's Harbor NY to Confederation Basin in Kingston, becoming the youngest person ever to swim the lake, and she did it in the fastest time. She did it not for the record book, but for charity, for a local swim club for young people with disabilities. For the last part of her swim she was joined in the water by her sister Jenna. Last year Jenna made the same swim for the same charity. Jenna is crippled, she walks with difficulty on crutches. Their parents were behind them and with them all the time. What wonderful kids! What a great family! And what an example they set! Kingstonians are proud of their achievement. There are great kids out there, and it is reassuring to know that.

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You are quite right Eric, the problem is we very rarely hear about them. There is a young lad on Accy Web who has just got loads of GCSE'S(can't remember how many off the top of my head) and his mum was badly hurt at New Year, how hard must that lad have had to work to help look after his mum and study for his exams? The problem is that the kids who are bad get rewarded when they are good and kids who behave get miffed and who can blame them? Proirities are all wrong!

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you are quite correct eric,theres many good kids,quite a few on here if the truth were known,but its the complete FAILURE of Society to get to grips with the tosspots,and until they do,these tragedys will continue to increase.

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like i said and will always say, it all boils down to bad parenting!, those who dont give a **** where their kids are, or what they are doing!!!, we all know what type!