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Less 03-09-2007 09:28
Keep failing pupils back
 
Keep failing pupils back - Tories

So, the Conservatives propose that to improve literacy in secondary schools children found in their last year at Junior school to be struggling will be kept back for a year in a bid to ensure these children catch up.

Excuse me? But I thought our children started school at the age of 5 and moved on to secondary school at 11 this surely gives the teachers at the junior school 6 years, (age 11 minus age 5=6 for anyone that should have been kept back), during which time they (teachers), should have the chance to notice that little Sarah is struggling with her reading etc. Therefore shouldn't more emphasis be placed on bringing her up to speed before the final year?

Also, keeping a reluctant 12 year old back could cause disruption of the classroom for the struggling 11 year old that might have been passed as fit for progress to the secondary school if only their lessons hadn't been disturbed by the actions of some older children.

WillowTheWhisp 03-09-2007 09:30
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
It would be a darned site easier if Primary schools could concentrate on teaching the basics first instead of all the additional curriculum which they can't possibly be any good at until they've learned to read and write.

lancsdave 03-09-2007 09:34
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
A clear example of politicians not having a clue, talk about handing the next election to Labour on a plate !!

BERNADETTE 03-09-2007 09:41
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
If a child is struggling the problem should be picked up very quickly and extra help arranged. It is a big thing moving up to secondary school without the added stigma of having been held back at junior school for an extra year. Do these people live in the real world? It would just give the bullies another excuse to havs a go!!!:confused:

cashman 03-09-2007 09:43
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
another glaring example of polititions being completely out of touch with reality.:rolleyes:

WillowTheWhisp 03-09-2007 10:03
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 467034)
If a child is struggling the problem should be picked up very quickly and extra help arranged.
It would be great if it was that simple but even if a teacher knows a child needs help there may not be anyone available to give the extra help. They can't just ask for extra staff and get them. It's incredibly difficult. Then there is the problem of class sizes and in some schools a large percentage of pupils start without being able to understand a word of English let alone read and write it!

cashman 03-09-2007 10:11
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 467038)
It would be great if it was that simple but even if a teacher knows a child needs help there may not be anyone available to give the extra help. They can't just ask for extra staff and get them. It's incredibly difficult. Then there is the problem of class sizes and in some schools a large percentage of pupils start without being able to understand a word of English let alone read and write it!
then that to me puts an un-necessary strain on education, surely if a child cannot understand a word that child should NOT be admitted.sorry if this comes across racist,its not meant that way, its just common sense.:(

BERNADETTE 03-09-2007 10:13
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 467038)
It would be great if it was that simple but even if a teacher knows a child needs help there may not be anyone available to give the extra help. They can't just ask for extra staff and get them. It's incredibly difficult. Then there is the problem of class sizes and in some schools a large percentage of pupils start without being able to understand a word of English let alone read and write it!
I know there are many problems, but aren't we going to add to them if this ridiculous idea takes off?

Less 03-09-2007 10:14
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 467038)
It would be great if it was that simple but even if a teacher knows a child needs help there may not be anyone available to give the extra help. They can't just ask for extra staff and get them. It's incredibly difficult. Then there is the problem of class sizes and in some schools a large percentage of pupils start without being able to understand a word of English let alone read and write it!
How much would keeping children back cost? Instead of stigmatising these children by forcing them to stay an extra year at junior school wouldn't the money be better invested if it was used when and where the problem arises, after all if the child can't read at 11 then as sure as eggs is eggs, they couldn't read at 10 or 9 either, unless some children forget how to read in their final year at junior school? Rather than leave it until the last minute when this practice could cause greater damage let's attack the problem earlier.

WillowTheWhisp 03-09-2007 11:00
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
It would help in the first place if there were extra-curricular classes for the non-English speakers in Reception classes to get them up to the required level by Year One and I fully agree that the problem should be tackled early on before it gets out of hand.

BERNADETTE 03-09-2007 11:28
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
At the end of the day any parent should know that their child is not progressing and should have got things moving before the child is ready to go to senior school. After all lots of kids have dyslexia and it doesn't hold them back. The key to the problem IMO is parents spotting any problems and getting them sorted!

beechy 03-09-2007 11:39
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
we already have problems with classes at
school being to large it would seem impractical to create
a system whereby education of primary childer has to be extended
we are already seeing teachers being told to extend school to include
more sports and to cut the time of other subjects
bottom lie is only so many hours in a day weeks years
once again pie in the sky politics

cashman 03-09-2007 12:33
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 467030)
It would be a darned site easier if Primary schools could concentrate on teaching the basics first instead of all the additional curriculum which they can't possibly be any good at until they've learned to read and write.
while thats all well and good,and i agree on attacking the matter early is a must, my question is WHO pays for teaching the basics to these childeren? to me the responsibility lies with parents,they after all have brought/ brought up, the childeren here.:cool:

Less 03-09-2007 15:22
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beechy (Post 467052)
we already have problems with classes at
school being to large it would seem impractical to create
a system whereby education of primary childer has to be extended
we are already seeing teachers being told to extend school to include
more sports and to cut the time of other subjects
bottom lie is only so many hours in a day weeks years
once again pie in the sky politics
Not really pie in the sky politics, if we, (all of us parents and other so called adults), really cared these kids wouldn't be in this position, it's because we are selfish that such children get left behind. Although I don't agree with the idea of keeping children back a class, I do believe we all have a responsibility that each child should have a chance to learn even if their parents don't care. Which means education needs more investment.

By the way, so far as large classes, I was part of the post war 'baby boomer's' and we had classes between 30 and 40 but we all knew we had to pay attention when a teacher spoke, perhaps something similar needs to be introduced?

beechy 03-09-2007 16:12
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
i to was in the classrooms of the early 50s and we did
indeed pay attention to our teacher
this was called respect both earned and taught
no such thing exists now
i myself as a parent sat down with my childer
and we educated each other through the school years

cashman 03-09-2007 16:32
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Less (Post 467091)

By the way, so far as large classes, I was part of the post war 'baby boomer's' and we had classes between 30 and 40 but we all knew we had to pay attention when a teacher spoke, perhaps something similar needs to be introduced?
exactly, its my old chestnut "RESPECT" and until something similar is introduced, we can all waffle as much as we want= getting nowhere.:rolleyes:

WillowTheWhisp 03-09-2007 16:53
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
There were 40 in my classes at Primary school too but we all learned. One thing which I think helped was that we were split according to ability and taught at our own level which doesn't happen now because it's PC to treat children as if they are all of equal ability which is poppycock. Equal opportunity to learn doesn't mean equal treatment and equal teaching, some need more help than others and some need more supervision than others. Not only does it go over the heads of the less able, it bores the more able so it's only the middle few who are actually being taught at their own ability level. These classes of no more than 30 were supposed to be the answer to the problem but kids today know less than they did in our day - so much for improvements.

Gayle 03-09-2007 17:29
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
St Mary's primary school has a good system but it took me a while to get my head around it at first. Children don't progress at the same rate and so are kept with their ability group rather than it being solely down to age.

For instance there are three year groups in infants but St Mary's have four classes. So a child might do classes 1, 2 and 3 or 2, 3 and 4 or depending on how they progress 1, 2 and 4 etc. The same in juniors where there are five classes but only four year groups, so again a pupil could do any combination of four. So, at any time there could be a combination of year groups in each class, although of course, the top class is always full of the same year group because they're going to be the brightest and the oldest.

I probably haven't explained it very well but it works really well.

BERNADETTE 03-09-2007 18:02
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
I know what you mean they used to do it at Peel Park and then when the children were ready for senior school they used to liase with the teachers from whichever school the child was going to. They were then put into forms according to their ability and if there was a marked improvement in their grades the children were put in another group more suited to their ability. It is a good idea.

shillelagh 03-09-2007 22:07
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Keeping kids back is a bad idea. Simple reason is that parents want their kids to be in the best primary school. Like baxenden primary school is oversubscribed and if you want your child to go to bash then you go to church long before your child is due to go there, you have your child christened there etc because you know the school is a good one. If you start keeping kids back another year then a parent is going to say oh that school had 5 kids kept back - i dont want to send mine there - i want her to go to peel park because they didnt have any kids kept back. So then that school will be over subscribed. But the kids who do then get into Peel Park may live in Baxenden or up Oswaldtwistle not live in the streets next to it they might have to go to Huncoat or Mount Pleasant or Mary Magdelene. Then with all of that you get parents taking their child to school in the car - more cars on the roads, more greenhouse gases etc. Basically what it comes down to is what the kids are taught. When i was at primary school we got taught maths, english, reading, geography, history, science, re and gym. We had two lessons of gym a week, friday morning before break was re (vicar taught us and he took the assembly on fri mornings), we had science on a wednesday afternoon, swimming on wednesday mornings. Thing is though we didnt have all the different lessons that are taught nowadays - science covered biology, chemistry, physics etc. We didnt have computers - we used books and learnt what the teacher taught us writing on the blackboard. We didnt have calculators we had to use pen and paper. We learnt to read in reception more often than not we knew some of our letters if not all because our parents sat down with us and read us books and we followed the story in the books using the pictures. How many parents nowadays sit down with their kids and read a book to them?

jackyalex 03-09-2007 22:30
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
we have a problem with our 8yr old son,i would hate that he be kept back a year,my son struggles to read,but he can write and spell,which i dont understand everyday we listen to him read,but the same book reread he struggles and the school isnt helping,he is being left out of alot at school because he cant read and we are trying our hardest to teach him,has anyone got any tips that would help

WillowTheWhisp 03-09-2007 22:35
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
I know this may be a dumb question but has he had an eye test? I mean a thorough one? It could be something as simple as the contrast between black print on white paper. Has he tried reading with a coloured acetate overlay?

jackyalex 03-09-2007 23:01
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
yes he has to wear glasses and has had a recent eye test,the school he is at teaches children the phonic alphabet,we think that this may be where we are going wrong at home but have tried many different ways of teaching him, but dont want to confuse him anymore ,i have not had a problem with my eldest child reading just my 8yr old ,the school has not been much help , my 5 yr old brings home reading books from school and these are the books that i now use for my son aswell as my 5yr old,it does seem to be helping a bit,

BERNADETTE 03-09-2007 23:07
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyalex (Post 467265)
yes he has to wear glasses and has had a recent eye test,the school he is at teaches children the phonic alphabet,we think that this may be where we are going wrong at home but have tried many different ways of teaching him, but dont want to confuse him anymore ,i have not had a problem with my eldest child reading just my 8yr old ,the school has not been much help , my 5 yr old brings home reading books from school and these are the books that i now use for my son aswell as my 5yr old,it does seem to be helping a bit,
Keep on to the school till you get some satisfaction, it sounds to me like he could be dyslexic. There are many ways of dealing with this one of which Willow mentioned in her thread, Good Luck and try not to worry he will get it in the end:D

jackyalex 03-09-2007 23:15
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
thanks bernie,is there a test for to see if you are dyslexic,if so how would i get him checked

garinda 03-09-2007 23:15
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
How long do they intend to keep people back?

Some might still be there until retirment age.

I acknowledge that children learn things at differing times, but really the only way to ensure all children learn, to the best of their ability, is in smaller class sizes, something this Conservative proposal will only increase the size of.

It is shocking that even today children leave school without adequate numeracy and literacy skills. I do think parents have a part to play in this, as well as the schools. I was no child genius, but I was able to read before starting school on my fourth birthday. A small amount of the parent's time aiding their child's skills, will mean more time at school will be spent on learning more advanced skills, rather than trying to teach the basics.

BERNADETTE 03-09-2007 23:28
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyalex (Post 467274)
thanks bernie,is there a test for to see if you are dyslexic,if so how would i get him checked
I don't know the ins and outs of it as I was fortunate not to have these problems with my two, but there were identical twins at Peel Park when they were and they were both dyslexic. They could both read with different colours over the page(say one was red and the other blue) I think Willows thread mentions it as well.:)

BERNADETTE 03-09-2007 23:32
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
They don't learn numeracy skills today, they use calculators. I do agree with parents doing all they can to help with reading. At the end of the day if children need extra help it should be available!!

WillowTheWhisp 04-09-2007 07:37
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyalex (Post 467265)
yes he has to wear glasses and has had a recent eye test,the school he is at teaches children the phonic alphabet,we think that this may be where we are going wrong at home but have tried many different ways of teaching him, but dont want to confuse him anymore ,i have not had a problem with my eldest child reading just my 8yr old ,the school has not been much help , my 5 yr old brings home reading books from school and these are the books that i now use for my son aswell as my 5yr old,it does seem to be helping a bit,

I wasn't meaning just if he needed glasses. Bernadette mentioned dyslexia and that is a bone of contention with me as it's very difficult to get a child checked for it. However there are visual problems linked to dyslexia that aren't necessarily label-able as dyslexia but cause a child problems with reading due to the colour of black print on white paper. I only learned about this after my daughter had a serious accident and was being tutored at LEMS until she was able to go back to school full time. The tutors there tried out various coloured acetate sheets for children to read through and it makes a world of a difference to some of them. Different colours work for different children and they are specific optical colours not just pretty plastic.

There is an optician in Bury who can do these tests. Most opticians aren't qualified to do them. They are very few and far between. The only other one in Lancashire is in Lancaster I was told. It might be worth making an appointment for him with Crowthers in Bury and explaining what his difficulty is. I can get you the phone number if you like. It may mean that he needs specially tinted lenses.

There's also a brilliant system called "Toe-by-Toe" which I could explain more about if the vision thing doesn't help.

jackyalex 04-09-2007 09:47
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
thanks willow,i didnt understand at first what you meant by the colours,i will have a look into this ,i am over 100 miles away from bury so i will see if their is an optitian closer who can do this if my optitian doesnt,is there a name for these tests,just so i dont sound silly when im phoning the optitian,thanks again willow

WillowTheWhisp 04-09-2007 11:25
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Silly me, it's not Bury, it's Bacup! I wonder why I put Bury? Anyway that doesn't make much difference to you does it? :D

The test is called 'colourimetry'. If your optician doesn't do it they should be able to put you on to someone who does.

Tealeaf 04-09-2007 12:02
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
I'm fully in agreement with this idea. Mind you, if this had been the policy for the last 30 years or so, half of the contributors to Accy Web would still be in year 6, primary school.

BERNADETTE 04-09-2007 12:18
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 467375)
I'm fully in agreement with this idea. Mind you, if this had been the policy for the last 30 years or so, half of the contributors to Accy Web would still be in year 6, primary school.
It looks like you would be one of them. Do you get a kick out of throwing insults about? For some people this is the only contact they have with others, I don't think they want to read stupid comments all the time:mad:

Tealeaf 04-09-2007 12:21
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 467381)
It looks like you would be one of them. Do you get a kick out of throwing insults about? For some people this is the only contact they have with others, I don't think they want to read stupid comments all the time:mad:
You won't get any karma for making remarks like that, you know.

BERNADETTE 04-09-2007 12:25
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 467382)
You won't get any karma for making remarks like that, you know.
When I can spend it in the shops I will let that fact bother me, until then I really don't care.

jackyalex 04-09-2007 13:03
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 467364)
Silly me, it's not Bury, it's Bacup! I wonder why I put Bury? Anyway that doesn't make much difference to you does it? :D

The test is called 'colourimetry'. If your optician doesn't do it they should be able to put you on to someone who does.

thanks willow i will look it up, yes bury and bacup still too far away for me lol

yerself 04-09-2007 14:42
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tealeaf
I'm fully in agreement with this idea. Mind you, if this had been the policy for the last 30 years or so, half of the contributors to Accy Web would still be in year 6, primary school.
Just what I was thinking but I knew you'd say it for me.:D:D

Lilly 04-09-2007 15:25
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Less (Post 467026)
Keep failing pupils back - Tories

So, the Conservatives propose that to improve literacy in secondary schools children found in their last year at Junior school to be struggling will be kept back for a year in a bid to ensure these children catch up.

Excuse me? But I thought our children started school at the age of 5 and moved on to secondary school at 11 this surely gives the teachers at the junior school 6 years, (age 11 minus age 5=6 for anyone that should have been kept back), during which time they (teachers), should have the chance to notice that little Sarah is struggling with her reading etc. Therefore shouldn't more emphasis be placed on bringing her up to speed before the final year?

Also, keeping a reluctant 12 year old back could cause disruption of the classroom for the struggling 11 year old that might have been passed as fit for progress to the secondary school if only their lessons hadn't been disturbed by the actions of some older children.
I wonder how that would work then. At the moment classes are limited to 30 pupils so what will happen if they keep 3 pupils back a year and then they've got 30 more coming up into the class? They'll end up with bigger classes depending on how many they keep back? It's against the law to have more than 30 in a class isn't it?:confused:

WillowTheWhisp 04-09-2007 15:33
Re: Keep failing pupils back
 
I actually remember it happening when I was at the High School. A couple of girls were kept back a year. It didn't happen often but the extra person was just absorbed into the class because there wasn't all the hoohah about numbers like there is these days.


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