10 year old drowns
 

Just heard on the news that a 10 year old kid drowned in a pond while two police community support officers stoud by and let it happen. The excuse given was that they were not trained for this kind of incident. What happened to human instinct are they banned from using it? It is sickening that the stood and let it happen. They should be charged for criminal negligence at least. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad:

BBC NEWS | England | Manchester | Police defend drowning death case

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There would be a good chance that if they had made the effort and then faced sacking the community would have got behind them. Is a job now more important than life because if it is we are in a mess. If I was sacked for saving or try to save a life I would hold my head high.

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They should of jumped in if they felt confident enough to perform a rescue.

I saw something like this once on Booze Britan where someone fell into a river, the police on the scene again didnt jump in as they where not equipt propertly and could of cause more problems then help.
They had to wait for the fire brigade.

Aparantly it is still possible to revive someone upto half an hour later if the water is cold enough.

My condolances go to the childs family.

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i would of lost my job rather than watch a child die

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here here Kathleen, no job is worth losing the life of a child (if that made sense)
















i know what i mean in mi head :D

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What are they made of? Any normal human being would have just tried to rescue the child. They must be void of any feelings. Deepest Sympathy to this little boys family.

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I'm sure it would have been an automatic response for most people to jump in and help the boy......I could not have stood by and see a child drown...i would rather take my chance.

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I wonder if a prerequisite is not to have any humanity at all or they have it "knocked out of em". The passers by were not trained but still made the effort. Priorities are all wrong!!

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similar happened to me last night lol, as for those community support officers, i hope the locals give the spineless gets hell.:mad:

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Actually its because of duty of care that they didnt, in law precidence has already been set where someone doing a good deed like saving someone actually was done criminally for duty of care even though they only tried to save someone. Legally u help or try to get involved & it doesn't go right or failure, the basic human instinct to help can become a criminal act - stangely, because u take the responsiblity for it.

Something i learnt in law about this type of thing in the duty of care legality. CSO's or any persons employed would be warned about taking something on without training or permission for this reason, so hence why could be deemed sackable.

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They should not have been playing there in the first place!!!!!
Who is his mother to complain --alleging neglect?

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The report I read said there was no sign of the boy when the PCSO's got there. Basically they are powerless police without the training a police officer would have had.
It's a bit pointless laying blame now and no-one knows how they would react in this kind of situation unless it happens to them.:(

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Exactly & if those officers had jumped in to try to save him without medical cert/knowledge or permission - then the mother could legally [nasty how it is] lodge a breech duty of care because the officers tho tried failed or poss contributed injury. The officers haven't as such failed their duty of care because it was not their place to do so, other than call the ambulance & report it, unless in their contract otherwise to act in other ways.


For example, senario - say IF in my contract at work as TA i cannot put a plaster or give any medication nor 1st aid - without training cert but can port child to 1st officers positioned in school or in an emergency contact 999, if i do breech that i could be sacked but also sued for negligence if said child should react to plaster or any medical intervention i could of done, so u really have to be very careful indeed, because u get involved u automatically assume duty of care.

AS u see quite an interesting discussion in law terms as we did in law about duty of care.

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most of the world arent 'qualified' to save a drowning child, but we wouldnt think twice about it if the incident happened in front of us, i hope these men are ashamed of themselves

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Yeh morally it stinks BUT legally it could constitute more trouble.

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like i said, i'd risk my job ANYDAY to save any human being

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Surely that is beside the point I am sure that for most people the first thought would be to try and help the child. Or are we so frightened of being sued?

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What if they had jumped in and they to needed to be saved?

Its hard for anyone to say what they would of done without being there at the time.

Kudos to the two fishermen for jumping in.

Im sure if they could of fished the boy out they would of done. Happen it wasnt as easy as just jumping in.

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it wouldnt bother me being sued, i'd rather save a life

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As an adult I would not be able to save anyones life if they are drowning. I can't swim. Are we to assume these PCSO's can swim. Is it part of the qualifications ? ( I haven't a clue so it is a serious question )

I am suprised at their absence from the inquest but given the feeling of the parents towards them maybe thats the reason ?

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What a load of rubbish... the way some people are trying to defend these officers..I'm not calling them cowards they are obviously thick stupid people simple as that!
All this rules and regulations stuff is just an excuse... for example are you telling me that in a scenario were a child is hanging by the neck in let's say a school changing room you can't cut them down for fear of being sacked?.. or if a child is bleeding to death you can't try to stop it and apply a bandage?.. total rubbish!!!

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Might sound rubbish Mancie but sad effects of todays life, all the pc/lawsuit era having a lot to do with it:rolleyes:

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I think people should get their facts right before they start calling people thick and stupid. The officers involved did not stand and watch a little boy thrashing around on the surface drowning if he had of been I am sure they would of gone in and helped this child. A call was given to the police when this boy and sister got into difficulty, two fishermen helped the little girl (they did not enter the water they held there fishing rods out so she could grab them and pulled her into the side)to safety but the little boy had gone under and was missing underwater by the time these officers had arrived, after the wrong address was given by the initial caller.
As a trained water rescue officer I know the hidden dangers that lurk in ponds and reservoirs and to enter one looking for a body that cannot be seen on the surface is suicidal and an absolute waste of time, with visability being absolutely nil on the bottom. The exact location of this child was unknown it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Its fine in the movies when the hero swims out and dives down to pull a victim from the depths drags him to the shore blows a couple of times in his mouth and hey presto he coughs a couple of times and he is fine, hollywood rubbish.
Lets not forget What happened to paul Metcalf, read here.

BBC News | UK | Sadness at failed lake rescue

To call these people thick and stupid is outragous, and they are probably at home with there families feeling absolutely terrible that they could not have got there sooner and got the little boy out whilst he was struggling on the surface.
You are a hero to swim out and drag a child or anyone in distress back to the shore and save there life.
But to enter a lake or pond when there is no sign of the casualty and dive down to unknown depths and hazzards without the correct equipment then you are thick and stupid.

Expierienced people in the emergency services know for a fact that once a casualty has been under for more than three or four minutes then that person will unfortunately be dead and location can only be carried out by trained personnel with breathing equipment, which is a pain staking task as you have to feel around in complete darkness.

Cut these officers some slack enough people have died entering water to find bodies without the correct equipment it is nothing to law suits etc its common sense.

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I heard the mother on the radio today and she made it sound as though they had watched while her son drowned.
It is always wise to be aware that there is always another side to the story....and you can only really comment when you have all the facts.
Thanks for pointing this out to us firefighter753.

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firefighter753 I agree with you 100% ; the report I read said that the lad was no where in sight when the PCSOs arrived. They cannot be blamed for this tragedy.
If people took the time to fully read these reports and not just jump to conclusions these ghoulish debates would be avoided.
Thank you for your insights on this sad case.
I still believe that until you are/have been in that terrible situation you do not know how you will react.... look at the case just last week when 4 kids died trapped in a submerged car.
We all would like to think we would be heroic and jump at these situations but I have been in a similar one and I just froze. You really don't know.:(

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Im sorry but i come down on the side of firefighter here. I agree with him. I am a trained first aider and i can swim but i wouldnt jump in somewhere to try and find someone. It could be dangerous to you and what if you ended up needing rescuing? If you got trapped in weeds or an old pram or wheels that was dumped. 1st rule of rescuing someone who has fallen in is find a branch of a tree or something similar and throw it to the person who has fallen in. 2nd rule is ring 999 and tell them exactly where you are and what has happened. DO NOT ENTER THE WATER. Wait for the emergency services and direct them to exactly where they are. That way they are not wasting time having to rescue you when they could be rescuing the person who fell in.

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Its a pleasure. It really annoys me when parents look for scapegoats and other people to blame , when they really need to ask themselves why were my children looking for tadpoles at the edge of a pond unsupervised.

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Well said !!

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I am a nervous swimmer, in no way confident, I can just about save my own life. You have to be confident of your own ability before attempting to rescue someone else; as I understand it the PCSOs arrived after the boy had gone under; ;to be quite honest I don't think I would have gone in either. (awaits brickbats)

Re: 10 year old drowns
 

Ok firefighter.. I was reacting to the original thread.

Spuggie quote--Just heard on the news that a 10 year old kid drowned in a pond while two police community support officers stoud by and let it happen. The excuse given was that they were not trained for this kind of incident. What happened to human instinct are they banned from using it? It is sickening that the stood and let it happen. They should be charged for criminal negligence at least---unquote

I admit I did not know the facts of the incident, and thank you for revealing them.. but perhaps you should aim your frustration at the initial poster of the thread!!!! :mad:

Re: 10 year old drowns
 

No, i think if you have any doubt about your own ability to help, then you should stay out of the water...although there are things you can do...like looking for a branch to hold out to the person in difficulty...but make sure your own footing is safe and firm. I once saved my brother from drowning in a local lodge by using a thick branch...i held it out to him and he grabbed hold and I was able to pull him out of the water. I still got a good hiding as we were not allowed down at the lodge without a grown up.

Children rarely see the dangers and water is a real magnet ......maybe he should not have been playing there in the first place.

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Exactly ! People don't read the whole story; they look at the headline and seize it.
Admittedly the young lad's family will be feeling like their world has ended but who is initially to blame? Certainly not the emergency services and the PCSOs who turned up to help, no one stood around being useless while the lad drowned; he had already drowned by the time they PCSO'S had got there.
Maybe if they had got him out earlier he might have survived; no one knows.
Lesson to be learnt is don't let your kids play near a 6 foot deep pond.:(

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Well someone want to tell me why the 13:00 NEWS which I heard it from originally broadcast it wrong then? I have no problem with taking the heat by the by and it may be justified but how many read the article plus the archive ones there as well.

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The article on Sky News says the lad had gone when the pcsos turned up.

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Point taken Mancie, although my post wasn't intended just to single out one person it was aimed at the thread as a whole including the original post, I think that the original post and the follow ups have been the victims of bad and inaccurate press.

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So what is the point of learning First Aid? None at all as far as I can see if you then use it to save someone and become a criminal for having done so.

I watched the story on Granada Reports at about the same time Spuggie and the reporter certainly told it as if the lad was there and clearly visible and the two CSOs just ignored his cries for help.

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Very sad case .. the poor parents.

Think at least this thread has given us some useful information and advice from professionals and from the experiences of other members, so think the thread has turned out to be very helpful indeed, particularly as I live on the edge of a lodge and children come down fairly regularly to investigate the mysteries this water holds.

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I have had the the experience of being the one dragged out and that was bad enough. Because of what I went through and felt I would try my damdest to get the person out. The thing is all water is not easy to access for the emergency services and I was at a few when younger. There are pro's and con's over what to do and may be person that see's and must make a split second decision.

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U mis-understood willow, those who are not trained by 1st ad professionals like st johns ambulance etc shouldn't technically be giving any sort of 1st aid unless instructed to do so in cases via the 999 service or by advice of medical professional - whom then they assume the duty of care then on your behalf. If u do so by taking action in anyway will resume the duty of care whether trained or not - the difference will come down to whether u hold a 1st aiders certificate or backing by said medcal professional SHOULD any type court or hearing be involved in accident cases & then whether that was followed properly & the actions were appropiate to the causation or not. Anyone can be done for failure of duty of care even medical professionals if things go wrong that they could or should of prevented, hence why u have to sign permission for ops & the like. Duty of care issue is a complex thing that questions morality.

Im mearely talking legallly here not morally, the have a go hero risks a lot as well as gains the heroic gesture depending if all goes well or problem arises in doing so, i'll have to dig around for cases from our tutoring, it was quite a shock & questionable even to those studying it - never mind owt else lol.

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Yes, I recall having lectures from a legal expert and it was very scary.
As a nurse I would be VERY wary about helping out at any incident...aminly because if things went wrong I could be sued personally.....so while I would like to help out from the moral standpoint, doing so could have very serious legal implications for me.

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You are right Willow...it is a very sad (legal) state of affairs.

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I've been the one people have looked after when i've had a fit in the street or shop or standing at the bus stop etc. Im just grateful someone has looked after me. I wouldnt think of suing someone because they gave me first aid because i know possibly they are saving my life. I trained as a first aider because of my mum - she fell a lot and had strokes and i wanted to know if something happened then i could look after her until the ambulance got here. I did a course that lasted two afternoons and ran by the red cross.

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Does anybody remember Esther Ranson,s "JOBSWORTH " in Thats Life....?
I dont think this situation would have gone down very well.......

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Blimey GC that is going back a tad aint it!

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after reading this thread a seeing that a lot of people may have a fear of 'getting involved' because they may end-up getting sued in the courts . I was surprised to find that the UK did not have a 'Good Samaritan Law" on the books to give immunity to anyone providing emergency aid.
that being said , its become a sad state of affairs when laws such as these have to be passed to protect people .
Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
:confused: :confused:

Re: 10 year old drowns
 

Absolute tradgedy. When i saw it on the news it just brought back memories of a college tutor / retained firefighter i knew who died rescuing a kid in a pond in Bury.

BBC NEWS | England | Manchester | 'Failures' caused fireman's death


Sadly missed.

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Wonder if we are heading in the direction of the 3rd world here?

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What was that saying if you couldnt' swim? Or it was dangerous. Or the person was bigger or as big as you. DON'T go in to get them. You should.......
'' Reach, Throw (something else ? ) or Row ''. Seemingly the anglers did that with their rods. Pity they didn't see the boy. He was the Hero . but sadly a dead one.:sad8:

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Firstly may I say I too saw the telly reports and first thoughts were "OMG why not act" BUT then it was reported "no sign of boy on arrival" so that then rules out entry to water as Firefighter has stated and the rules why.

SteeleJack UK does have the Good Smariatin (sp) act and to put it as simple as I can (and I think I posted about it in the Dr thread) "providing the person does not go beyond their level of skill, training or equipment then it MAY be deamed an ACT OF A GOOD SMARIATIN" that is a simple as I can understand it but will glady be corrected or have that confirmed.

The first thing you are taught in basic !st Aid IS DrABC


D = DANGER to ME, my collegues, any others or the casulity

or in otherwords if you feel it is NOT safe STOP!!!!!! Do not become another casulity

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Well, today's news is that Greater Manchester Police are now withdrawing pedal bikes from their PSCO's because after the tragic death of one of their number on a bike, it has been decided that health and safety issues warrant their withdrawal because the risk is to high.

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