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The programme that features the Riaz family is on if anybody has forgotten about it.

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Sorry folks must be next week.:o

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It is tomorrow at 9pm on BBC3.
Tonight's program is about another family in Manchester (I think)
Tonight is part 1 tomorrow is part 2. It is called Honour Kills.

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Thanks for the info Neil, my husband thought it was tonight that is why I posted.

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it is on tonight , second part tomorrow. sorry if you missed it tonight! mick may have taped it ?http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/i...cons/icon5.gif

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It was about that unspeakable person from Manchester tonight and the Riaz case is on tomorrow.

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very sorry ,it is tomorrow .

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Don't apologize David it was me that got it wrong in the first place (well Ian I was upstairs cleaning) it is never my fault:p

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I didn't understand a word of that.

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The Honour Killings as they are called. You must have read about the Riaz family From Accrington, a mother and her four daughters murdered in a house fire last year. There was a big thread about it on here.

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my brother thought it was tonight. must admit i don't know anything about the riaz family ,living in preston , but i will watch it tomorrow .

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Ok. It might have been before my time.

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It was only a few months ago, less than a year if I remember correctly.

Lancashire Telegraph: View & buy photos: Hyndburn photos: Riaz family tragedy

BBC - Lancashire - News - Local reaction: Accrington fire

Caneze Riaz & daughters « Domestic Violence Memorial (UK)

Son’s sad farewell - News - Accrington Observer

Shocking TV documentary on blaze family - News - Accrington Observer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nmuslim21.xml

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ton-25427.html

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It was before you joined, will try and find the thread later in case you want to read it;)

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I watched it last night... very very sad: what a monster that man is, lets hope he stays locked up for LIFE....

I don't know how the police and staff kept their cool... I could not do that job...

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so this too, how could a father do that to his kids...his own flesh and blood..........sick if you ask me, hope the scum bag suffers in jail!!

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i watched it too, he killed his kids before he killed his wife, he should of been hanged

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I dont think I'll be able to bear watching it. I dont think it should be thought of as an honour killing either. Honour killings are when they've done something to shame the family, but Riaz' mum and sisters never did anything shameful.

:(

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Thanks, terrible event. Even worse, it seems to happen a lot. And not only with muslims and cultures which don't have the more "liberal" western values. It is shocking how many women, and often their children too, are killed by disaffected partners and, often, ex-partners.

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He even took them to Blackpool that afternoon, let them make sand castles and then on to the pleasure beach, took them home waited whilst they slept and then caved their heads in with a rounders bat. This man should not be allowed to live, why should tax payers keep him in jail all his life.

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I don't see how these can be called "honor" killings; it is certainly a distortion of "honor" to link it to macho male insecurity. It is time to let immigrants know that altho they are welcome, there are certain aspects of thier culture which are not. There are enough problems with insecure boyfriends and husbands without adding more that are culturally sanctioned, or at least tolerated.

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I am watching it now.

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Most of the programme was about the Riaz family. It made very sad viewing.:(

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Very sad and it is going on all over the place.

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Why would you refer to immigrants in particular? Born and bred british citizens can do exactly the same thing, and they do, it happens with white british families as well, but the reason they aren't called honor killings is because they typically lack the religious factor, yet often its not the religious factor at all makes these men do these things, they are just cowards.

Adams poor excuse for a father might have tried to bully his family with his religious believes but underneath he was the shame on the family, drinking alcohol and claiming to be such a righteous muslim. He didn't deserve his loving family, and he killed them because he was a coward, nothing to do with honor.

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And how many of the cases so far have not been immigrants? I have been watching it and as you say Adam's "father" was a coward who murdered six people or as good as!!!

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I'm struggling to think why honour killings might be called such due to some typically religious factor.

Honourable man = religious man ?
Religious man = honourable man?

Plain murder in my book.

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It doesn't seem very prevalent say, amongst Welsh Mehodists, for example.


'Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries.'
http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

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you watched a two part documentary, it just so happens that the cases shown just happened to be foreign people. Just as many white men murder their wives and children for many reasons, the only reason its not labelled an honor killing as we stereotype honor killing as a foreign activity, just as typically people link terrorism with muslim al qaeda followers, when there are many white terrorists in the country.

My friends family weren't killed for honour, so it shouldn't be classed as a statistic for honor killings amongst foreigners in the country.
Honour killings are against people who have brought shame to the family, such as commiting adultery or some other form of immoral behaviour, and all riazs mum tried to do was bring 'immigrants' and everyone else together in the community.

If they are to be labelled as killed by their immigrant husband/dad, then you're forcing her to have died for a lost cause, and that deeply saddens me. There is no difference between an immigrant and a british citizen, theyre all human beings, and not all honor killings should be assumed to be carried out by foreigners just because the phrase isnt used when white men kill their families. I'm pretty sure a man murdered his family with an axe not so long ago but it wasn't deemed an honour killing, yet its the same situation.

I think riaz would've been really upset that people thought his mother died because she had done something dishonourable to shame her family. And I refuse to disrespect his memory by referring to it in such a thoughtless way.

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Blazey I think you have mistaken what is being said.

The pharse "Honour" killings is what is being talked about and that should that title be allowed to be claimed when in fact it is just plain and simple cold blooded murder.

I think this thread is trying to get a disscussion going on that but because one of the events was very close to home it has become "localised" and the main point of discussion has been pushed to one side.

However I'm prepeared to be corrected :)

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Hold on a minute I am not being thoughtless here, you asked the question why was it asumed these MEN were immigrants? In the two part documentary I watched they were foreign. I am not saying it does not happen with white, yellow or strawberry pink people. What I will say is it is very rare when you hear of cases of MURDER on this scale. It happened a few weeks prior to this to another immigrant family not to far away. DO NOT EVER TRY TO SAY THAT I EVEN CONTEMPLATED THAT WHAT HAPPENED WAS DUE TO THAT LOVELY LADY BEING DISHONOURABLE. You are well out of order!!!

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This so called 'honour killing the was the work of a coward, who had lost control of his family. If he had murdered his wife only the French have a name for it (garinda) your que, maybe honour comes into it but not in my book.To murder his cuildren was unbelievably burtal, and without excuse.It mighnt be acceptable in bangladesh, Pity he did not stop there. Also the Banngladeshi authorities are not very co-operative in these situations. No bevy of virgins await this ratbag.

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From what I understand ... and this is only from reading what I was pointed to on the web ... the murder of his wife was not even a crime of passion. It's this honour thing which bothers me. And what bothers me is that it seems latent in all cultures ... this tendency of men to treat women as possesions. And possesions which they seem to believe they have a right to destroy. And by extension, taking it to the extreme, some men may consider that their children are also possessions which may have been contaminated or damaged in some way by their partners' infidelity, real or perceived. Maybe it is not honor at all, just basic, irrational jealousy. Or maybe some guys are born as a complete waste of skin.

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personally i thought that cop guy got the term right. it wasnt an honour killing but a control killing. the guy was losing control of the grip he had on his family. his wife wanted a career his daughters wudnt go abroad to get married and it must've got to the point where he felt no one was respecting him as the man of the house thing.

the best thing on that show was barry khanan blasting the local leaders for their suggestions - rightly so. there's too many dead fodder in the asian community who due to their age think doin things their way is the best and it isnt. those local leaders have held back the muslim community for so long.

after 7/7 they shud've gone out all guns blazing against the terrorists and instead they stayed quiet sat in their homes with thier hands up soem dark hole. they cud've and shud've made a stand - the muslim community wud've been respected alot more - pretty soon after this riaz's incident it became clear that the dad had done this. it wasnt just gossip - it was a fact. there was a few of those local leaders who was there as the house burnt - they knew no one cud've got in or out. instead they were too busy gettin their pics taken.

not once have i read anywhere that the local leaders condemend this. these leaders are quick to point the fingers at other people when it suits them and happily smile when it doesnt.

the amount of times i heard these guys trying to justify something like this was shocking. oh she must've been having an affair with so and so. yeah i heard that too so it must be true. yeah she was with another bloke a few hrs before she died etc and not once did any of them say yeah even if she was this shudnt have happened.

and there's one more thing i'd add on here - they're called honour killings simply cause they're asian. how many times have u read about a white bloke killing his wife/gf cause she'd cheated on him or left him isnt this what happened wiht the cheadle case?

and dont look too far in the past - the robert lund case - honour killing? or just plain murder.

one other thing that suprirsed me was that there's such a asian community living here and there's so many examples of people running these countries after commiting a crime - wouldnt it make sense for the govt to persue an extradition treaty with such places? like those two bengali lads who ran off after the death of the 6 yr old.

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Eric, Mani I agree with both of you i'm having, trouble at present typing but you have filled in the blanks for me mani, the asian community will only function correctly when the 'old guard' are gone and not there to indoctrinate the younger ones.eric controland male domination is what this is about. The Asian 'old guard' in the community are not without blame here.

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Well said Mani on all fronts. A well thought out reply that isn't biased either way. Karma sent.

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ianto - exactly

i mean i know i do have some of those values that my dad had but its like mine was an arranged marriage - i'd seen her but never met her. but i know by the time my daughters come around to that age of marriage it'll be so much more easier for them to have the marriage of thier choice as the old guard will have gone and people's attitudes will be very different. yeah there still will be some of the old vibes and feelings. you cant make it go away in 5-10 yrs

i remember the time when some asian girl did a runner with her bf - it was the first time it'd happened in the local few streets so everyone knew about it. her parents didnt come out unless they really had to. fathers would go into major depression for this kinda stuff.

the one thing that can really disturb the balance is like in the riaz case - when the husband is from "back home". a freshie. cause each time they're bringing back that old mentality. some change to update their thoughts to the western world but some dont. loads of us mates used to go to one mates house adn their family was like ours no one wud bat an eyelid or question why we were there. we just were. then one of his sisters got married to someone from pakistan and when he came over and saw all this he was shocked by having unrelated males mingling in the household. so he asked his brother in law not to bring his mates around as it wasnt right. however eventually he began to come around the thinking and saw this is what happens we chill out we mingle and its like a big family so he came to us one day when we were together and apologised and said he'd been seeing things differently. so we moved back to vegetating in his house. :) attitudes can change but its gonna b a long time till they're the norm.

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Great posting mani, we need educating as well, to be able to try to understand the differences in communities. Especially the 'old guard' like myself:D:D

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I don't think this is too much of a wander: what is the position of the British govt. on Sharia? In Ontario, our premier, Dalton McGuinty said in 2005, "There will be no Sharia law in Ontario. There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians." And a further related question: is there a link between Sharia and honor killings?

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Although not officially sanctioned, it's already here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nsharia29.xml

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see its here in an unofficial way

what u have is a group of people sayin if it was shariah this and that wud happen - so they rule on divorces etc this way but all the decisions can still be challenged in the british courts

so for example if me and my missus had a fight and i on her. when it came to the divorce and i refused to give her a divorce cause i was being an arse then she cud contact the shariah council or the muslim council and they wud make a decision if she was elegible for a divorce. if i still refused the shariah people can put into practise legal measures whereby it would still have to go thru english courts. alternatively if when i met the shariah council they said oh according to the shariah law u must divorce ur wife and i was willing to co-operate they wud grant the divorce.

no decision is final final. they're more of a intermediatry body rather than an actual law enforcement thing

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Just to clear up a couple of points ......even if you a divorce thru the 'mosque' you would still be legally married under English law and a civil divorce would still be required thru an English law court .( Do the Imans in a mosque have the same legal powers as a Priest or a Vicar) he is licensed under English law, (various marriage acts going back to HenryVIII) to perfom marriages, otherwise a registrar office wedding is also required,
A bit like what the Catholics used to have , they could get an anullment from Rome saying their marriage was no longer valid in the eyes of the Church but a decree from an English court was also required otherwise either party who re-married were guilty of bigamy . :confused: :confused:

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no if u agree to their judgement u sign legal divorce documents. u sign the civil divorce. its similar power as u say to a vicar. but not every imam has the authority to award a divorce - marriage yes.

i'm not sure as to what it wud say on the divorce but in essance u sign the legal docs and then they get forwarded to the uk courts

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Kangeroo court's will always function in close knit communities but will die off with the self appointed 'judges' or so called 'Islamic Scollars' oh how I hate 'plastic titles.

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Thanks ... that cleared a lot up ... more rewarding this way than googling. On the whole, Sharia doesn't seem all that bad ... has some positive points. It comes to mind that many Canadian First Nations have similar stuff going for them, particularly in the case of the justice system. One drawback that I can see, is that it might retard the speed at which immigrant groups are intergrated into society .... and it seems as if it could cause conflict between the generations in a particular culture.

One difference between Sharia and laws which apply to Canadian First Nations (and there are over 600 of them) is that First Nations are, well, nations. And they can definitely not be called immigrants as they were here first.

It's something to mull over. Thanx again.

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yeah the prob is that shariah in its strictest form has got alot of bad publicity

so when you read the papers and sayin shariah law is set to be implemented in the uk its a shock tactic by the papers. so everyone just reads the title and not the whole truth is written and people rightly so think their country is about to be taken over.

it does help alot - like the girls who's husbands want to b real donkeys and not grant them the divorce they can arbitrate between them and if it comes to nothing they can grant it islamically as the other person as not responded etc. alot of girls wud b stuck for a few yrs in the british legal system if they went that way. then sometimes its even more complicated when the groom isnt even in the uk and they try to get a divorce - they can still do that if all they've done is had an islamic marriage - not a british registration.

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Whoa there Kemo Sabe :D ........so are now your telling us that marriages are taking place in the UK and not being registered with the local civil authorties ?. How do the families go about registering births and tax stuff, applying for passports , citizenship papers for spouses imported from oveseas etc.

on another note , Eric mentioned in an earlier post about the Canadian First Nations and we have similar laws here in the US on 'American Indian' tribal territories , where local laws take some precedence over Federal/National laws but I doubt they extend to marriage/divorce/legitimacy/inheritance issues .
Seems to me , and this is just my opinion but all this multi-culturism is getting out of hand and is now becomming more and more like 'tribalism' and we all know that 'tribalism' does not work , wether it be in Europe (Yugoslavia) Africa (Rwanda/Sudan) Asia (the Hmongs in Laos and Burma)
Traditions that may be acceptable in a monocultural/homeland society should in no way be acceptable when the person moves into another society , here in California there is a growing movement among a section of the expatriate south Asian community for a 'free Kalistan" (are we going to see another seccessionist war on the sub-continent), more tribalism, the person/s should in my view be prepared to accept the rules and norms of the new society or return to his or her own homeland/society and not be allowed to complain or demand about his/her human/cultural rights being infringed on, Like the old saying 'When in Rome ........' :confused: :confused:

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*L*

i'm sayin the marriages that havent taken place in the uk! hence hte groom hasnt come over yet.... *LOL*

calm down dear - its only a thread!

yeah the free khalistan movement has been goin for a long long time - the sikhs who want this nation feel the brits, the muslims and the hindu's shafted them during partition and didnt give them their own nation. this whol movement climaxed in 1984 during the storming of the sikh golden temple by the army and led to the assasination of indira gandi. they were also responsible for that air india flight that got blown up off the coast of ireland that was going to canada.

i doubt that movement is gonna have enough support for this - enough visible support. there's too many sikhs in india who are afraid to show their support as after the assasination of indira millions of sikhs were perscuted, harmed or killed in revenge since then they've always felt the opressed minority despite the PM of india being sikh himself.

there's too many people who complain about the west and its lifestyle and then happily live here - pre-9/11 there was a few ppl goin on about how afganistan was goin the right way in implementing shariah law to its strictest and how uk was corrupt etc - so i said to one - whats stopping u then? if its that brilliant why arent u there? he just walked away.

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Hit the nail right on the head there, Mani. Karma sent.

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i think u can download it from places....

but the places u can get it from arent accepting new members...

oh there u go

totally forgot about the bbc iplayer thing

its on that bbc iplayer thing both parts....

BBC - BBC iPlayer - Programme Information - Honour Kills

BBC - BBC iPlayer - Programme Information - Honour Kills

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I wasn't involved with post 1, i was offended at a response to me simply because I stated that its wrong for bernadette and anyone for that matter referring to their death as an honour killing. How many of you where friends with any of that family and had to stand at that funeral with your best friend and watch him bury his family? How many of you had to comfort your best friend through that and there not being a single phrase in the english language that could take any of that pain away from him? If I dont defend Riaz' memory by being disgusted at the term used to describe their deaths then I have been a failure as a friend to him if I back down, about how offended I am, and how offended he wouldve been that people are giving such an empty term to his families death.

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So back on thread!!

I have read this thread and MOST people have made very good sense!!

Some interesting things that Mani has posted too.

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I thought Mani's posts were very interesting, he talked a lot of sense and taught us a bit more of how things actually happen.

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I think you need to take a step back blazey and start again at the beginning of the thread and see that the subject started due to the programme being aired on TV regarding the riaz family...now the programme dubbed it as a honour killing and it was pointed out in this thread that it should be called anything but.....

In fact bernadette actually put:

The Honour Killings as they are called. You must have read about the Riaz family From Accrington, a mother and her four daughters murdered in a house fire last year.

Mani posted later in the thread his thoughts on the situation and how it is to live in the asian community and how the local leaders could have handled this and many other situations of late

This was respectfully applauded and thanked for enlightening us

As for the strawberry people, bernadette was actually saying she couldn't care less if this had happened amongst any colour it is still murder...so how can you take that out of context!!??

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My goodness you take a comment not aimed at you as an insult and turn it into an argument about you. If you can't read the comment and take it in the context it was posted you have a problem. Once again I will say this thread is not about you but about a poor family who were MURDERED.

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I would like to apologize to any family of close friends of Caneze Riaz and her beautiful children for the way this thread has degenerated into a slanging match. I think their memory is worth much more than this. It would help if everybody read the thread before jumping to conclusions and didn't read just bits here and there. Anyway before I digress from the point this is just a heartfelt apology to anyone of you who may read it.

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(It should be you know who,) apologising on here, it should be the one that jumped on the bandwaggon to turn it into a "I love me myself and I platform, to promote their own over inflated ego, thus nullifying the message of your thread Bernie.