Accrington Web - Harsh or Just ?

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Bonnyboy

11-01-2008 21:34

Harsh or Just ?

Firstly, it’s so sad that such a tragic accident occurred but this seems a bit harsh to me, considering that the man had an illness and was unaware that he was suffering from anything at all. Perhaps you think differently.

Death crash lorry driver jailed - BBC News

grego

11-01-2008 22:15

Re: Harsh or Just ?

What time was the crash? He may have been unaware of his condition but surely you realise that you're feeling drowsy, 4 people lost their lives I dont think the sentence was harsh.

cashman

11-01-2008 22:34

Re: Harsh or Just ?

article dont give enough info,like how long he,d been driving, how long been awake, to make a balanced descision, for once i'll sit on the fence. when multiple deaths are the outcome its hard to say too harsh though.

Bonnyboy

11-01-2008 22:35

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by grego (Post 515820)

What time was the crash? He may have been unaware of his condition but surely you realise that you're feeling drowsy, 4 people lost their lives I dont think the sentence was harsh.

The article just says that he was awake from around 04:30, driving by 07:00 and that the accident happened in the afternnon rush hour...maybe it was dinnertime ish or teatime ish. Seems harsh to me due to that fact that he had no intent to fall asleep and was unaware that he had a condition whereby he will become drowsy.

Having said that it is easy to be liberal with my forgiveness, it wasn't my family that was wiped out.

Seems there is many an instance where people lose their life on our roads due to the negligence of complete idiots, drink/drug abusers, un-qualified drivers and so forth. Through some technicalities or other they just get driving bans or fined ( give a driving ban to a person who is not qualified to drive...how the hell is that a punishment )

I just thought it harsh :)

nikkival

11-01-2008 22:39

Re: Harsh or Just ?

I find it hard to believe that he didn't have any symptoms at all prior to the accident, (I've been reading about 'Sleep Apnoea - see link below'). Although he might have been unaware that he had the condition he must have been experiencing drowsy spells or tiredness for some time to have actually fallen asleep at the wheel. Also, in his line of work there are clear guidelines on driving hours and taking regular breaks. I think that as a family of 4 lost their lives, the charge & the sentence is justified.

Sleep apnoea Introduction - Health encyclopaedia - NHS Direct

harwood red

11-01-2008 22:41

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkival (Post 515838)

You have said exactly what I wanted to say...but oh so much better :)

cashman

11-01-2008 22:43

Re: Harsh or Just ?

well its a known fact that defence lawyers, will use any tactic to get a win,agree with nikkival now i know a bit more.

grego

11-01-2008 22:48

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonnyboy (Post 515833)

Its not that I dont believe he has the condition, but surely anyone who has been up since 4am would be feeling tired by lunch and tea time especially if driving for all that time. I agree that the family of the people killed no doubt will think its not long enough. :)

Bonnyboy

11-01-2008 22:51

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Looks like some Accyweb members have managed to diagnose this chap. It's a pity the mans G.P. wasn't as well informed on "Sleep apnoea" if that is what he indeed suffers from.

harwood red

11-01-2008 22:55

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonnyboy (Post 515846)

Looks like some Accyweb members have managed to diagnose this chap. It's a pity the mans G.P. wasn't as well informed on "Sleep apnoea" if that is what he indeed suffers from.

No it says thats what he suffers from in your original link

cashman

11-01-2008 22:58

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonnyboy (Post 515846)

Looks like some Accyweb members have managed to diagnose this chap. It's a pity the mans G.P. wasn't as well informed on "Sleep apnoea" if that is what he indeed suffers from.

he aint related to you BB is he?:rolleyes:

Bonnyboy

11-01-2008 23:02

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by harwood red (Post 515848)

No it says thats what he suffers from in your original link

Yes it does, so I will retract my smart arsed “diagnosis” comment. Fact is though, that all illnesses affect everyone differently. I just think that serving a jail term for doing something that you have no real control over is a bit unfair.

Bonnyboy

11-01-2008 23:04

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 515850)

he aint related to you BB is he?:rolleyes:

:D Thats what I get for being a Clever Cloggs :rolleyes:

Bonnyboy

11-01-2008 23:21

Re: Harsh or Just ?

I'm on a hiding to nothing with this aren't I...glad I'm too thick to be a barrister :) :D

nikkival

11-01-2008 23:29

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonnyboy (Post 515878)

I'm on a hiding to nothing with this aren't I...glad I'm too thick to be a barrister :) :D

Don't be too hard on yourself! On first read I thought it was a bit harsh but changed my mind when I read more about the sleep disorder. Who would want to be a judge these days?

WillowTheWhisp

11-01-2008 23:41

Re: Harsh or Just ?

I think I agree with you Bonnyboy. I know two people who suffer from sleep apnoea and both of them just suddenly drop off to sleep. They don't doze or behave like other people who feel sleepy and drowsy.One minute they are wide awake and next minute they are snoring. If something suddenly wakens them they are not even aware of how long they have been asleep. One of them used to drive and had an accident, drove into a garden fence and rolled the car over. Until then he wasn't even aware that it happened either. He was fortunate in that no other car was involved and neither he nor his passengers were seriously hurt.

I don't know how long this chap had been up and about and been driving as that isn't clear in the article. The early hour of the morning gives the implication that he had been maybe overdoing it and been driving for too long but it's all relative. Some people get up at 7am, set off for work at 8am and can be driving for several hours - he may not have actually been on the road any longer than that.

However, if he had been driving for a long time and not taken any breaks then that could be taken into account as a contributory factor and most people should have sense to take a break. It's not clear whether he did or not, although he does say he didn't feel sleepy. I think that is often a characteristic of sleep apnoea that the sufferer isn't actually aware of feeling sleepy.

In any case nothing can bring back those whose lives have been lost. If the purpose of the punishment is to prevent the person from doing it again I would say that it's unnecessary because he is hardly likely to ever do it again now that he knows he has such a problem whether he is punished or not. If the idea is to discourage other people from doing the same thing then it's pointless because anyone else in the same situation may well also not know they suffer from this problem and so wouldn't consider it related to them.

WillowTheWhisp

11-01-2008 23:43

Re: Harsh or Just ?

From the NHS linked site:

Quote:

People affected by sleep apnoea are often unaware of that they have the condition.

Bonnyboy

11-01-2008 23:46

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Heck Willow, that was a decent post, would give you some karma but apparently I have to spread it around a little more :rolleyes:

jambutty

13-01-2008 14:24

Re: Harsh or Just ?

And now Parliament is discussing the possibility of a driver causing a death on the roads because of a momentary lapse in concentration will only get a community sentence instead of prison.

Or put another way – if you have the money to hire a really smart barrister to plead your ‘momentary lapse’ case you are likely to stay out of prison. Whereas the rest of us without such financial muscle will get slammed in clink.

As for the topic in question. On the face of it, it may seem harsh but there are too many unknowns to make a judgement so I have to accept the learned judge’s decision.

All I can say is that at 61 Ian King must have been aware that as you grow older you change in many ways and one way is that you get tired quicker.

adele84

13-01-2008 14:57

Re: Harsh or Just ?

who really gives **** he killed people ****ing lock him up

blazey

13-01-2008 18:51

Re: Harsh or Just ?

I agree with bonnyboy on this one. People who dont know they have an illness like this wouldn't stay off work even if he had been feeling drowsy during the day time, thats like saying nobody gets tired sometimes during the day.

How long had he been doing the job? Days or years? I also think symptoms are different per person and you cant say he must have had symptoms, one person could be suffering from an erratic sleep pattern whilst another may just feel he needs a nap in the middle of the day or something?

My main problem with this is that how many people go to the doctors every time they feel exhausted? Its hardly a well known illness is it? From my view even a 15 minute break wouldn't have stopped this from happening, and I think he deserved nothing more than a driving ban and a suspended sentence. I'm sure he would have suffered enough trauma and will suffer for the rest of his life with the guilt of what happened. Any one of us on this forum who could drive could have had that happen to them, it was just a tragic accident.

MargaretR

13-01-2008 18:57

Re: Harsh or Just ?

There are several sleep disorders
Try this test - you may have one of them without realising it.
Knowing = coping, and learning to live with it
Sleep Test

blazey

13-01-2008 19:05

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 516513)

There are several sleep disorders
Try this test - you may have one of them without realising it.
Knowing = coping, and learning to live with it
Sleep Test

I show symptoms of 4 and I knew already that i have a problem with insomnia. Shame that the ones it says all clash regarding symptoms. In others words my sleeping patterns are a mess. Guess that comes with studying better at night and just sleeping when I get chance! I went to sleep at 6pm yesterday and got up at 11pm, stayed up til 4, went back to sleep til 10am. I think thats the most sleep ive had in a while though!

I also have symptoms of that one we're discussing. Luckily I dont drive.

blazey

13-01-2008 19:18

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazey (Post 516521)

I'll check back tomorrow to see if anyone else has an unrealistic amount of ailments. thats the problems with these types of questionnaires, they produce hypochondriacs and some are actually developed intentionally to make some people worry I think.

Imagine how I'm going to sleep tonight with the knowledge I potentially suffer from 4 of the 9 possible problems.

MargaretR

13-01-2008 19:41

Re: Harsh or Just ?

A sleep disorder can only be correctly diagnosed by tests at a sleep clinic.
It is common sense to have a daytime nap if you have daytime drowsiness.
Some farsighted Japanese employers are installing napping areas in workplaces.

katex

13-01-2008 20:10

Re: Harsh or Just ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 516544)

The Power Nap Margaret . well known that if you get just 20 minutes early afternoon, your performance is better. Richard Branson was the first to make this known in the U.K.

Never felt any drowsiness whilst driving .. even when 9/10 hours on there (with breaks though ..like visiting customers), but now more office bound, do get that lull whereby would give anything to shut my eyes for a little while .. work through it though, but think would work much better if I had had a little snooze.

firth_dawn

13-01-2008 20:45

Re: Harsh or Just ?

i think if it is true that he has a sleep disorder he needs help not a prison sentence as he will be feeling like his guts have been ripped out taking away a whole families lives.

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