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-   -   Can the old get away with murder? (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/can-the-old-get-away-with-murder-36551.html)

garinda 28-01-2008 23:55

Can the old get away with murder?
 
Well not murder, but in this case fraud totalling £850,000.

The eighty four year old man was spared jail because of ill health, though he seemed sprightly enough to pop round to various art galleries and auction houses, to sell the 'works of art', claiming he had inherited what he was trying to sell.

Although there is an amusing side to this, a greedy art world, duped by things knocked up in a Bolton shed, there is a serious side too.

'The family managed to convince the council-owned Bolton Museum to part with £439,767 for the 20-inch piece said to be 3,300 years old and a figurine of the daughter of Pharaoh Akhenaten and Queen Nefertiti, the mother of King Tutankhamun.'

I wouldn't be too happy if my council bill had to cover that.

What do we think?

Do the crime, serve the time, or get off if you're a bit shaky on the old pins?

'Artful Codger' spared jail over counterfeit art | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

Less 29-01-2008 00:04

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 523429)
Well not murder, but in this case fraud totalling £850,000.

Well yes, murder, General whatsit mis-ruled Argentina for a few years, the police missing persons bureaux over there is the largest employer of the country and they are all on overtime!

cashman 29-01-2008 00:13

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
think the cheating old git should have got bird, fraud is fraud an it wern't a tube of smarties it was serious fraud, if this is the case, i may try it on in a few yrs time, if things are a bit tight on me pension.:rolleyes:

garinda 29-01-2008 00:21

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Although the story is quite amusing, would an eighty four year old child molester, who was suffering ill health, also be spared the jail sentence a younger man would have to serve?

Mancie 29-01-2008 00:33

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Same old story.. I recall the Head/Chairman of Guinness getting banged up for fraud only to be released a few months later for "health reasons".. you or I would have simply been turfed into the hospital wing of the prison.. and as for Pinocehet being let of for "health reasons".. the bloke almost danced on the airport runway!

garinda 29-01-2008 08:32

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 523433)
Same old story.. I recall the Head/Chairman of Guinness getting banged up for fraud only to be released a few months later for "health reasons".. you or I would have simply been turfed into the hospital wing of the prison.. and as for Pinocehet being let of for "health reasons".. the bloke almost danced on the airport runway!

Agreed. Ronnie Biggs was still banged up on his recapture, even though his health was fading.

jaysay 29-01-2008 09:04

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Another funny thing about this case is that Bolton Council want the fake sculpture back so they can put it on display, its seems waste not want not me thinks:D

panther 29-01-2008 10:53

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
whether hes 18 or 85, hes done the crime so he should have been banged up!!

Alvin the chipmunk 29-01-2008 11:59

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Owd or young, a crime is still a crime and he should be banged up as he deserves to be. After all, they banged up Ronnie Biggs when he came back didn't they?

Acrylic-bob 29-01-2008 13:30

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
While deploring the crime, I think that the sentencing on this occaision was fair. So a bunch of snooty art queens had the wool pulled over their eyes and got their pride dented - big deal, and about time too!
One of the things that is being overlooked in all the hoo-hah is the extraordinary skill of the 84 year old's son, who actually manufactured the artefacts which left the galleries and art etablishment with egg on their po-faces. This chap has got to be something of a minor national treasure. When did Tracy Emmins create anything as beautiful as the Amarna Princess? I am not surprised that Bolton want to keep hold of it.

cashman 29-01-2008 13:37

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
dont matter who is de-frauded A-B, its still a serious crime, n as for the sons talent, theres probably been counterfeiters as skillful, should we make them national treasures also?

Acrylic-bob 29-01-2008 13:55

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
In an era when the level of craftsmanship is being eroded to the point of invisibility and craft skills are being lost for the want of teachers and people to take them on, then I think the answer has to be yes.

garinda 29-01-2008 15:07

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 523572)
While deploring the crime, I think that the sentencing on this occaision was fair. So a bunch of snooty art queens had the wool pulled over their eyes and got their pride dented - big deal, and about time too!
One of the things that is being overlooked in all the hoo-hah is the extraordinary skill of the 84 year old's son, who actually manufactured the artefacts which left the galleries and art etablishment with egg on their po-faces. This chap has got to be something of a minor national treasure. When did Tracy Emmins create anything as beautiful as the Amarna Princess? I am not surprised that Bolton want to keep hold of it.

This story does have a comic side, but when should old age be an excuse for not giving someone a custodial sentence, that in this case would have been handed down to someone younger?

Like I posted earlier, should an octogenerian child molester be spared prison too?

Margaret Pilkington 29-01-2008 17:35

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
I admire the work that this old fella did....if it bamboozled some art experts into thinking it was real then it must have been a pretty fair job of work (and I'm sure people would pay to have replicas of such works of art).......I don't think age should be an excuse for not getting a jail term though.

Maybe the art experts at Bolton council should be sacked for not being up to the job.

jambutty 29-01-2008 17:48

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Good luck to the old geezer. He showed up what a pretentious load of prats the so called art experts are.:tongueout

garinda 29-01-2008 17:52

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 523633)
Good luck to the old geezer. He showed up what a pretentious load of prats the so called art experts are.:tongueout

Although this case is quite amusing, that's really not the point. A younger person would've been serving a custodial sentence for this crime of fraud.

Should older people, say those guilty of serious sex crimes, also be exempt from prison, because of their age?

jambutty 29-01-2008 17:53

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 523432)
Although the story is quite amusing, would an eighty four year old child molester, who was suffering ill health, also be spared the jail sentence a younger man would have to serve?

You can’t equate George Greenhalgh with a child molester.

A child molester of any age or sex needs putting away for life regardless of his/her health. Throwing away the key would help too.

garinda 29-01-2008 18:02

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 523635)
You can’t equate George Greenhalgh with a child molester.

A child molester of any age or sex needs putting away for life regardless of his/her health. Throwing away the key would help too.

I thought we were all supposed to be equal before the law?

The crime is really irrelevant.

This man was spared a jail sentence because of his age.

So we let off an eighty four year old for fraud. Where do we draw the line? Which crimes should the elderly be exempt from serving a custodial sentence for?

Kidnapping, child molestation, or is it ok as long as it is a 'victimless crime', which a younger person would serve a gaol sentence for?

jambutty 29-01-2008 18:04

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
They banged up Ronnie Biggs because his crime was against the royalty in the form of Royal Mail train that he robbed. If he had just robbed an armoured car or a bank I doubt very much if they would have thrown the book at him and his cohorts.

The Chairman of Guinness was a “captain of industry” and thus well in with the ‘establishment’.

Pinochet was a friend of Maggies.

Just been announced that the guys who stole £53M whilst threatening people with guns got a minimum of 15 years each.

However to answer the question, age should have nothing to do with the type of sentence. The severity of the crime should be the sole yardstick for handing down a sentence and not whom the crime was committed against.

derekgas 29-01-2008 18:09

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
I wouldn't be too happy if my council bill had to cover that. (quote)

I wouldn't be happy if they paid that for the real thing, let alone a fake, just goes to show how stupid councils and government can be with our money!

jambutty 29-01-2008 18:22

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 523639)
I thought we were all supposed to be equal before the law?

The crime is really irrelevant.

This man was spared a jail sentence because of his age.

So we let off an eighty four year old for fraud. Where do we draw the line? Which crimes should the elderly be exempt from serving a custodial sentence for?

Kidnapping, child molestation, or is it ok as long as it is a 'victimless crime', which a younger person would serve a gaol sentence for?

We are but some are more equal than others whether you are the criminal or the victim.

No he wasn’t spared a jail sentence and he wasn’t let off either. His sentence was a 2 years jail sentence suspended because, as was reported, the judge contacted all the jails to see if they could accommodate an 84 years old. None of them could so he took the only option open to him. Don’t forget the "Artful Codger" and hid family were ordered to pay back £400,000 and I understand that there are moves to get more back from them.

As has already been pointed out, the victims in this case were the pseudo art intellectuals and it took them SEVENTEEN YEARS to discover that they had been duped. The Bolton Council should sue the ‘expert’ who verified the statue as genuine.

No crime is victimless. In any case why bring the highly emotive issue of child molesters into the debate? Or are you, as usual, just trying to stir things up a bit.

steeljack 29-01-2008 18:26

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
bit of a sidebar , nasty old git gets into a spot of trouble on an ASDA car park
'Victor Meldrew' pensioner, 75, banned from Asda after head-butting trolley pusher | the Daily Mail
and 'they' have the nerve to complain about the young :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

garinda 29-01-2008 18:30

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 523659)
We are but some are more equal than others whether you are the criminal or the victim.

No he wasn’t spared a jail sentence and he wasn’t let off either. His sentence was a 2 years jail sentence suspended because, as was reported, the judge contacted all the jails to see if they could accommodate an 84 years old. None of them could so he took the only option open to him. Don’t forget the "Artful Codger" and hid family were ordered to pay back £400,000 and I understand that there are moves to get more back from them.

As has already been pointed out, the victims in this case were the pseudo art intellectuals and it took them SEVENTEEN YEARS to discover that they had been duped. The Bolton Council should sue the ‘expert’ who verified the statue as genuine.

No crime is victimless. In any case why bring the highly emotive issue of child molesters into the debate? Or are you, as usual, just trying to stir things up a bit.

He was excused a custodial sentence because of the frailties of age, the crime is irrelevant.

What crimes should this be the norm for? You think it is acceptable for fraud, how about murder?

This isn't about an art fraud, it's about the principle of equality for all before the law.

Should the disabled, or educationally subnormal, also be excused jail, because the prison service can't accommodate them?

jambutty 29-01-2008 18:53

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 523668)
He was excused a custodial sentence because of the frailties of age, the crime is irrelevant.

What crimes should this be the norm for? You think it is acceptable for fraud, how about murder?

This isn't about an art fraud, it's about the principle of equality for all before the law.

Should the disabled, or educationally subnormal, also be excused jail, because the prison service can't accommodate them?

No he wasn’t. Read the article. Here let me save you the bother.
Quote:

Judge William Morris adjourned the case at Bolton crown court this month to ask if any jails could "humanely" imprison a wheelchair-bound pensioner suffering from poor health. Today the judge told the court that the prison service could not look after Greenhalgh humanely because of his age and infirmity - otherwise he would be going to prison.
His age and infirmity was only relevant because no jail could accommodate him humanely.

At least the judge had the good sense to find out before passing sentence. No doubt he would have arrived at the same decision had the criminal been 36, in poor health and in a wheelchair.

If a prison cannot cater for a disabled or educationally subnormal person humanely then an alternative punishment has to be handed down.

Do you really know what you are talking about? You state that “the crime is irrelevant” and then turn right around and boldly ask about the type of crime.

garinda 29-01-2008 19:05

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
So you're are saying that a man, the same age as the man in question, and of similar fraility, should be excused jail because of their health, regardless of the crime?

Sounds like carte blanche for the elderly to do what they want.

Lets just hope the streets don't fill up with boozed up pensioners knocking down little kids, happy in the knowledge that they'll never get banged up.

shillelagh 29-01-2008 19:19

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Would you still be saying that jambutty if you lived in bolton and it was your poll tax that had gone to pay for the statue?

If you cant do the time dont do the crime....:D

West Ender 29-01-2008 19:43

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
No, sorry, you can't equate an art fraud with child molesting on the scale of injury to the person, outrage of morality or evil intent. Having said that, the severity of sentencing often seems to be at the whim of the judge and we have all heard of child molesters who have been treated shockingly leniently and persons involved with the Great God Money who have received long prison stretches.

This guy and his son committed fraud, of that there is no doubt, but their worst crime, from the Art Establishment's point of view, must be that the latter have been made to look like incompetent fools. That is dreadful - true but dreadful.

I've no doubt the old man would have gone to prison if it had been easy to find a place. At the back of my mind, however, I'm thinking - if he could fool people by lying about his "finds", why not about the wheelchair? Does he jump out of it every night and dance round that garden shed? Makes you wonder.

cashman 29-01-2008 19:47

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
i wondered same as you, especially when i heard the cheeky old git mutter coming out of court to the taxi.:rolleyes:

Acrylic-bob 29-01-2008 19:52

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
When it comes to art and municipal authorities, I think you'll find that council's in the past have chucked away an awful lot more public money for a lot less. And we all know that is a situation which is not going to change anytime soon. At least the forgery has brought to prominence a real craftsman. And, considering the Ronnie Biggs comment, at least in this case no one was hurt.

garinda 29-01-2008 20:08

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by West Ender (Post 523792)
No, sorry, you can't equate an art fraud with child molesting on the scale of injury to the person, outrage of morality or evil intent.


But you can. Legally, and hopefully, both art fraud and child molestation would result in a custodial sentence.

Why should one crime be exempt from a jail sentence, for those elderly people of a frail disposition, and the other not?

WillowTheWhisp 29-01-2008 20:17

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 523799)
i wondered same as you, especially when i heard the cheeky old git mutter coming out of court to the taxi.:rolleyes:


What did he mutter?

I heard that there is no way of tracing the rest of the money. It could be in offshore funds somewhere just waiting for the son when he comes out.

I must say I agree with A-b about the talent of the man in creating the artifacts. That Armana princess is still the same thing it was when people thought it was ancient Egyptian. Then it was worth thousands, now it is worth nothing and yet it hasn't changed at all, only people's perception of it has changed.

cashman 30-01-2008 09:37

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 523858)

What did he mutter?

I heard that there is no way of tracing the rest of the money. It could be in offshore funds somewhere just waiting for the son when he comes out.

I must say I agree with A-b about the talent of the man in creating the artifacts. That Armana princess is still the same thing it was when people thought it was ancient Egyptian. Then it was worth thousands, now it is worth nothing and yet it hasn't changed at all, only people's perception of it has changed.

can't remember exactly, but it was " you haven,t heard the last of this" or words to that effect, i think too much emphasis is being put on " who they robbed" n " the talent of the son" the bottom line is it was Serious Fraud.

jambutty 30-01-2008 09:38

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 523731)
So you're are saying that a man, the same age as the man in question, and of similar fraility, should be excused jail because of their health, regardless of the crime?

Sounds like carte blanche for the elderly to do what they want.

Lets just hope the streets don't fill up with boozed up pensioners knocking down little kids, happy in the knowledge that they'll never get banged up.

Have you lost the ability to read and more importantly to understand what has been written? Or are you being deliberately obstreperous?

Oh! I get it! Your view overrides reality.

jambutty 30-01-2008 09:46

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shillelagh (Post 523761)
Would you still be saying that jambutty if you lived in bolton and it was your poll tax that had gone to pay for the statue?

If you cant do the time dont do the crime....:D

Here’s someone else who doesn’t read what has already been written or their understanding of the English language is limited to picture books.

If I lived in Bolton I would be badgering the Council to sue the ‘expert’ who verified the statue as genuine.

But then I have already stated so in post 21.

flashy 30-01-2008 10:01

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
ob·strep·er·ous
–adjective
resisting control or restraint in a difficult manner; unruly


ob·strep·er·ous
Noisily and stubbornly defiant.
Aggressively boisterous.


:)

jambutty 30-01-2008 10:09

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashytart (Post 524155)
ob·strep·er·ous
–adjective
resisting control or restraint in a difficult manner; unruly


ob·strep·er·ous
Noisily and stubbornly defiant.
Aggressively boisterous.


:)

You forgot to add disruptive, obtrusive, unhelpful, awkward.

flashy 30-01-2008 10:11

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
i didnt know what it meant so i looked it up, and a few people on here might not know what it means so i was only trying to be helpful


and the other words you said weren't on there

garinda 30-01-2008 10:25

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
I'm genuinely confused.

If an elderly person is considered to frail to go to prison for fraud, wouldn't they still be too frail for jail, if they had murdered someone, say? Or would this leniency go out the window for a more seriious crime, and a prison place would be secured for them?

It's a matter of principle.

BERNADETTE 15-05-2008 19:21

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
There is a programme on Channel4 at nine tonight about this con-man

cashman 15-05-2008 21:57

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
well after watching the programme tonight, it seems like the crafty old git conned the judge as well, they were speaking to the bloke next door, who said the wheelchair has been discarded, hes NEVER seen him in it since the trial, so its not just the art critics that are numpties is it?:D i take me hat off to the crafty old swine.:bingobang:thepint: thats how frail he is dummies.:D

BERNADETTE 15-05-2008 22:01

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Taped it but will watch it tomorrow, sounds like a damm good actor

Royboy39 15-05-2008 22:04

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 577217)
well after watching the programme tonight, it seems like the crafty old git conned the judge as well, they were speaking to the bloke next door, who said the wheelchair has been discarded, hes NEVER seen him in it since the trial, so its not just the art critics that are numpties is it?:D i take me hat off to the crafty old swine.:bingobang:thepint: thats how frail he is dummies.:D

Silver hair is not the sign of malfunction of faculties.....royboy 2008

cashman 15-05-2008 22:05

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 577222)
Taped it but will watch it tomorrow, sounds like a damm good actor

you aint kidding n burton got n oscar fer it.:D

BERNADETTE 15-05-2008 22:06

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 577226)
you aint kidding n burton got n oscar fer it.:D

You've got to hand it to him, we may not like it but good luck to him is all I can say;)

cashman 15-05-2008 22:25

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 577228)
You've got to hand it to him, we may not like it but good luck to him is all I can say;)

i don't like him, but i can sure appreciate class.:D

garinda 15-05-2008 23:43

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 577217)
well after watching the programme tonight, it seems like the crafty old git conned the judge as well, they were speaking to the bloke next door, who said the wheelchair has been discarded, hes NEVER seen him in it since the trial, so its not just the art critics that are numpties is it?:D i take me hat off to the crafty old swine.:bingobang:thepint: thats how frail he is dummies.:D

This story did have a certain charm. Artfacts knocked up in a shed behind a council house in Bolton, which fooled the experts in the art and antiquity world, and the son had an enormous, if illegal talents.

However, I still think if someone is convicted of a crime, and that crime deserves a custodial sentence, that's what should happen, regardless of age.

As his neighbours told the interviwer, the only time they'd ever seen the old fraudster in a wheelchair, was on television going to court.

You could also tell what sort of man he was, when it was revealed he'd spent years writing to foreign countries in order to get the war campaign medals he said he'd never received, when in fact he'd spent the six years of the war in prison in the U.K. for desertion, whilst his fellow countrymen were fighting for this country's freedom.:mad:

cashman 16-05-2008 00:05

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
i totally agree he shudda got "Bird" also that hes been a fraudster most of his life, but i still gotta laugh at how he conned every ******.;)

BERNADETTE 16-05-2008 00:08

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 577313)
i totally agree he shudda got "Bird" also that hes been a fraudster most of his life, but i still gotta laugh at how he conned every ******.;)

Haven't watched it yet but does make me wonder why he wasn't sussed before now:confused:

cashman 16-05-2008 00:12

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 577314)
Haven't watched it yet but does make me wonder why he wasn't sussed before now:confused:

he was bernie but as scotland yard only have 2 art fraud officers in the country, it was put on the back burner after his first offence, they were about to travel to Bolton to arrest him, n were taken off the case (more than once) for more pressing frauds, how pathetic is that?:(

BERNADETTE 16-05-2008 00:18

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 577316)
he was bernie but as scotland yard only have 2 art fraud officers in the country, it was put on the back burner after his first offence, they were about to travel to Bolton to arrest him, n were taken off the case (more than once) for more pressing frauds, how pathetic is that?:(

Maybe they had more important things to work on but to be honest art fraud is the least of our problems.

cashman 16-05-2008 00:27

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 577317)
Maybe they had more important things to work on but to be honest art fraud is the least of our problems.

yeh but much of the loot he gained after not being arrested came from " Public Money" i would call that "Our Problem";)

garinda 16-05-2008 00:32

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 577318)
yeh but much of the loot he gained after not being arrested came from " Public Money" i would call that "Our Problem";)

Strange old family.

Five adults living in that little house, and the middle aged man sharing a bedroom with his auntie.:eek:

No wonder he was alway in the shed all the time, probably after some privacy.:D

They didn't even seem to be doing it for the money, all very odd.

BERNADETTE 16-05-2008 00:36

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 577318)
yeh but much of the loot he gained after not being arrested came from " Public Money" i would call that "Our Problem";)

Should keep my gob shut till I watch it:eek:

Benipete 16-05-2008 00:36

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 577316)
he was bernie but as scotland yard only have 2 art fraud officers in the country, it was put on the back burner after his first offence, they were about to travel to Bolton to arrest him, n were taken off the case (more than once) for more pressing frauds, how pathetic is that?:(

Sorry -new to the thread,but it looks like the end of Parliament as we know it, certainly the house of Lords, and you may be going back to Spain. But we will find you.See you tonight at sydney St.:theband:

garinda 16-05-2008 00:48

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 523633)
Good luck to the old geezer. He showed up what a pretentious load of prats the so called art experts are.:tongueout



The nice old geezer, who when he was a nice young geezer, spent the war in the slammer for desertion, and then spends the next sixty years acquiring fraudulent war medals.;)

jaysay 16-05-2008 10:21

Re: Can the old get away with murder?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 577319)
Strange old family.

Five adults living in that little house, and the middle aged man sharing a bedroom with his auntie.:eek:

No wonder he was alway in the shed all the time, probably after some privacy.:D

They didn't even seem to be doing it for the money, all very odd.

I could have sworn that this family came from Bolton, not Burnley. Middle aged man sharing a bedroom with his auntie:hidewall::D


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