Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Pure altruism is giving without regard to reward or the benefits of recognition.

I was wandering through an old thread and was surprized the debate didnt come up, as it is always an interesting one.

So does it exist ? If so give an example of a situation in in which pure altruism is displayed.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

The day after I was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease, four years ago when I was thirty nine, someone I hardly knew gave me a cheque for a thousand pounds. They said I could do what I liked with it, and I couldn't refuse it, as they would be offended.

I did of course refuse the money, but when they insisted, I used the money on acupuncture treatment, which greatly helped the pain in my muscles.

Incidentally, the acupuncurist would only take half the normal fee, which with weekly treatments, over two years, was quite a considerable discount.

I'll never forget this kindness, and when people say that the world today is a worse place than in days gone by, they are wrong. There are still a lot of very good people, who perform acts of kindness without seeking reward.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Like Rindi you find out who your friends are when your health fails. On the home front my companion for the last nineteen years has always been there from me, epecially when I've been in a poor way. As for outside the family, they always say that people have very few friends and plenty of acquaintances, which is all so true. for the past 10 or so years I have been unable to go out much in winter, mainly because I don't have the flue Jab as I'm allergic to it, but I have had two mates who pop round to see me most weeks and I only have to pick the phone up if I need to and they'll be there. those mates are Tom Hindle and Brian Walmsley, it sure makes you feel the everything in the word s not all bad

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Was this payment for previous services rendered :eek:

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Ha ha.:p

I promised this person not to tell anyone what they did for me, and I haven't. Well not really, as I've given no clues as to their identity.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I think pure altruism is more alive than 'unpure' to be honest Keetah.

Lots of people have done lovely things for me, and not mainly money wise, and definitely for no reward or recognition. Perhaps their only reward was seeing me well and happy, which is what I like to think.

Myself, I hope, have done helpful things for people for which I require no return... Ok, has made me feel a little better about myself if that is the reward, but not shouted it from the housetops.

Yes, I think it is still in the majority.

Don't wish to mention any particular instances, as these people would be embarrased by public praise, as obviously Garinda's little helper.

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She'd kill me for posting this, but...

when I was about eight, an old lady who ran a sweet shop in Ossy, had her windows put through. The lady wasn't personally known to us, but my mum took her in a big bunch of flowers, and I remember thinking, wow, what a nice person my mum is.

I've met other people who my mum has done things for. A girl who she gave some pans to when she had nothing, and that she never forgot.

What I'm trying to say is my mum is nothing special, though she obviously is to her nearest and dearest, but very often it is the smallest act of kindness, especially if you're down and feeling vunerable, that means so much.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I'm sure I've read something about a bloke born in Bethlehem just over 2000 years ago. Does he qualify as an altruist?

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Sort of, but he of course taught people that good deeds would be rewarded in Heaven, so that puts him out of the picture as a true altruist.:D

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That makes him a con man, anyone got the BBC's Watchdog email address? He needs stopping before other gullible people fall for his scam.

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Anne Robinson, she of Watchdog fame, was also a famous winker.;)

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

some of the posts about good deeds are lovely - real kindness but i wouldnt say it is truley pure altruism

if somebody is hurt or sad it is a human instinct to do something because if we dont we think many things such as bad luck befaling us - or karma coming back tenfold or just guilt. There is also the fear i think that if we dont do anything and the situation gets worse we will always be asking ourselves - why didnt i do more ?

i think it is this drive a lot of the time that makes us act upon our impulse to help but it doesnt make it true altruism even if we arent particularly getting rewarded for a good deed doing the deed stops us having from feeling bad.

would the person who gave you a cheque have placed it on the floor and walked away without even konwing if you had picked it up ? or did they have to know that it was you who had personally taken possession of it ?

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I sorta' understand what you are saying Keetah, like I said the satisfaction I get from giving (apart from natural instincts to family) is the reward to my own self-esteem.

Suppose I would have to stand in front of complete strangers to take a load of machine gun fire to be a pure altruist (if any such word). Or donate any monies anonymously. Is this what you mean ?

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

altruism Belief that an agent's moral decisions should be guided by consideration for the interests and well-being of other people rather than merely by self-interest, as egoism would recommend. Evidence that human beings do sometimes act in order to benefit others for their own sake seems to count against the common psychological claim that all human action is self-serving.

It's really getting into the semantics of the term, as to what is altruism. I'm not a philospher, but I suppose all of us are ultimately self serving, because we need to care for ourselves first in order to survive, and before we can even think of helping others.

Are there people who act without the need for praise or recognition, either physically or spiritually, yes, in my opinion.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Would Dorothy MacGregor from Maundy Grange be an example of such a person?

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

The person wanted me to have the cheque, and make use of it whatever way I saw best.

Leaving the cheque on the floor, for perhaps someone else to find, wasn't an option. This person, who like I said earlier, isn't someone I know very well, is certainly no fool with their money.

It was an act of kindness, that demanded no recognition or thanks. I hope I spent the money wisely, and that it was used in the spirit it was given.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Lilly she is serving god so i would say not.

i hope nobody thinks i am being opinionated - i am just interested what others think.

We all look at the world through different eyes after all.

Garinda i know it is breaking the meaning right down - but that is why i put pure altruism, and i am no philosopher lol ( maybe after a few pints ) :D and i hope you are doing well, you have some very kind people around you and i am guessing you are a person who does many nice things for others it was obviously your time to get some back xx

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Since I mentioned it, I'd better give a little background as to why that one act meant so much.

First of all, it wasn't about the money, or the amount. It was the act itself.

I knew for a while something was wrong with me. I'd known for years in fact, but like so many people do, I chose to ignore it, and had put off going to the doctors.

The day the person gave me the cheque was the afternoon I'd just come back from seeing a neurologist, who confirmed I had Parkinson's Disease.

I was thirty nine and felt that my life was over. I knew very little about the condition, other than the tremor, and from what I'd read in a booklet the doctor had given me, on the way back in the car.

It very much painted a worse case scenario. Eventual loss of speech, confined to a wheelchair, etc., etc., that sort of thing.

My only God given talent had been art, and I had used that to go to art school, get a degree, and then forge a very enjoyable, and successful career in fashion, in London. All that it seemed would be taken away from me, as well as my independence. No more living the high life, jetting off round the world, and being single the thought did cross my mind that who the hell would ever want to love me now?

So, sat in my mum's kitchen, probably at the lowest I've ever been in my life, in comes this person, who I don't know very well, to ask what the doctor had said. This person then went away, only to return a short while later.

That is when the cheque was given, with the proviso that I could do whatever I wanted with it, as long as it made me happy.

The cheque could have been a bunch of flowers, picked from the roadside. It was the act itself. Giving me something, anything. An act of love, from one person to another, when I most needed it, which touched me the most, and which I'll never forget.

I did actually use some of the money, besides the acupuncture, on seeing the doctor again privately, because I desperately need more information regarding the treatment, and for which my six monthly NHS appointment didn't answer.

The question as to how I spent the money was never an issue. The person told me to do with it what I would, and I doubt they'd even worried if I spent it all in the pub.

Happily, emotionally I'm in a much better place right now.

Who knows, some of that might be down to that moment of kindness by that one person.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I hope your acupuncture is helping

i can also say that the medical system absolutely stinks in the way that they say - "here this is what the problem is, here is a ****ty pamflet, off you go, come back in six months and you will be able to ask me all the questions that pop into your head over the next couple of weeks, but even then i wont give you a straight answer.

but anyway...... i am glad you are in a happier place.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

We did have another thread, as to what Bob Geldof's motives were, regarding his charity work, in which altruism was raised.

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ear-14020.html

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

thanks Garinda

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I agree with Rindy's thought here. I know many people who do things casue it's just the right thing to do. Even if just to bring a bit of joy or light into someone's world.

Some would say that my belief in God drives me, and many others to do these sort of things. However, it is rare that I think that I'm getting "another jewel in my crown" for such act or deed.

Heck, what about Mez putting me up when I go over there for a visit. okay, she does get a witty, charming, hunk of a man staying with her for a bit, but I really don't think this is her reason!:D

Or how bout the simple acts of those who offered to buy me a pint while over there? Mez buying a bunch of candies for my kids? Or the complete strangers who gave me a pound for the parking thingamagig in Ashton-Under-Lyne? Or Bernie giving me Ianto's cane for a keepsake, etc, etc, etc?

I think nice people do things just cause they're nice people!

Brian

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I actually think that any one who helps others, without any thought for themselves or what may come out of the situation to benefit themselves are very few and far between, but there are such people. There are a lot of so called stars that do good things nowing that recognition will come back in other ways and they will reap he benefit. The best acts of compassion for others from so call stars, are the ones you never hear of.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

i know a guy that was a complete drunkard,was a buggar for fighting,etc etc, who at great expense went abroad to help the sickn disabled, voluntery would you say that is altruism keetah?:confused: or just evening things up a bit.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

i would say he did it to better himself and do something with his life

but i dont know him.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Don't worry about that, there are several opinionated members on here and we still talk to them :D

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

We don't know why he, or anyone else for that matter, does what could be perceived as acts of kindness.

Does it really matter why, as long as they are doing something that will help someone else?

It the world was filled with even more people who make someone elses burden a little lighter, that in my opinion is good thing.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I think nice people do things just cause they're nice people!

Brian[/quote]

I agree. Many people do things for others without desiring anything in return.....it is called 'Paying it forward'.....and it is like putting credit into the bank of kindness.
I would hope that if I do anything for someone, they would perform a similar kindness for someone else instead of paying me back....hence paying it forward.

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Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

i often give people things without wanting a reward :D

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

was thinking along similar lines,honestly dont get yer angle on this one Keetah:confused: to me people are just people, many do good things n it dont matter a monkeys why, if by doin so it makes somebodys lot a little better,thats fine with me,would not look for motives,theres too much crap in the world,without knocking what aint.;)

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

no i didnt say it was selfish it was just a general question to have a bit of a debate about but i see it has turned into a negative thread so never mind eh?

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

if you go to a funeral to help a friend through the process of burying their loved one does that count? Do the tears you cry for their loved one who was a complete stranger to you count? your friend will find comfort from your presence and yet you ask for nothing, you gain nothing, you are just there when needed. You dont expect thanks and you cant expect any comfort in return... is that a form of altruism?

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

i cant answer for you - do you think it is - your opinion will be different than mine - my opinion - i would say no

i am not saying that we do these things to get thanks and we dont want anything back either, but i think there is a basic instinct - a very small part of our survival mechanism that makes us respond the way we do.
I suppose on some level it is unexplainable, i suppose more to think of why we wouldnt dream of not going to a funeral with a friend especially if that friend, too, is ill. the thought of not going would be unbearable. I am not saying that we go to ease guilt. But to be honest i dont think that going to a funeral would really come under the heading of altruism. I would say that it is more to do with compassion.

A lot of your posts are negative or seem to be, and you seem to argue points just for the sake of it, i dont know you and yet i find i have a soft spot for you, ( in a non creepy kind of way lol ) i find myself wondering if you really are a caring person who just lets off steam on here, so is that altruism?

But like i say Blazey your opinion will be different than mine, because our life experiences will have been so different - thus i was looking forward to a debate - wondering if someone could expand my thinking on the subject - i enjoy a good debate but i think perhaps on a screen is not the place to do it because things can come across as being negative - even when they are not x

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Do you know what Willow i am one of those people that goes out of my way to do things for others, even if it means putting myself second third or ninety ninth, i feel like i just get kicked in the teeth for it a lot of the time. I work hard and people dont seem to see it until i have a day or two feeling under the weather then they notice i have slowed down and give me one of those looks - to say "can you put that rocket back up you bottom please" lol i am sure there are many nice people that feel like they should start to be less than nice and i dont know why we carry on doing it but we do but i dont think i am altruistic in the actual sense. i suppose i just like to make other people happy when i can - and that is what i get out of it i suppose.

but no i really dont think they are acts of selfishness at all xx

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I guess it depends on your own definition of altruism then. I dont particularly care if it exists or not to be truthful and I dont really enjoy philosophical issues as its mainly based on own personal moral and opinion.

people put money into charity boxes every day for no reason at all. Where is the personal gain from that? Often there is no compassion as they dont even look what charity they are donating to, so that cant be the answer. Nobody gives anyone recognition for putting their money into a box, except maybe the collector who says thankyou, though they aren't often gaining recognition either...

Is THAT altruism?

I get the feeling from your initial question that you personally dont think it exists, and therefore asking you what altruism is is pretty much pointless anyway unless I think of something you have never come across before. So I think I am just questionin myself right now really. And thats about as philosophical as I get.

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So thats why you were walking funny this morning :rolleyes::D:eek:

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LMAO - yeah but shhhhh it's a secret - it makes it damned hard to get through security i ca n tell you :D

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

A mother, feeding a newborn baby.

Even though she may be exhausted, her act is one of giving, and of instinctive love.

There you go, a true altruist.:)

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if she didnt feed the baby it would die - feeding a baby may instinctive - not alturistic. and why has this popped up again - noooooooo

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oh and it would cry and cry and cry because it was hungry - nobody can withstand eternal newbaby born crying

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

altruism


1.the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism). 2.Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Certainly an altruistic act, because the mother expects nothing in return.

This thread came back up because the thought just came to me.

Besides I'm not aware of any time scale for answering threads on here.;)

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altruism isnt about expecting anything in return its more about doing something for no reason at all. Its not about karma and all that bumf.
feeding anew born baby isnt an altruistic act - why is it ? Getting down to basics its about keeping the gene pool going- it is an instinctive act the reason a mother keeps feeding her baby is to keep the baby alive, and hopefully it will thrive into a strong human being who will pass on equally strong genes.

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I think something could be described as altruistic , if maybe a national health system somewhere in the world, would put a four year old bi-racial, illigitimate child of illegal immigrant parents in front of the line of someone of the likes of Tony Blair/George W Bush , if both were in need of a liver/heart transplant ........it will never happen , but we can live in hope ;)

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Another example of altruism is giving unsigned karma, as the person giving it expects nothing in return, because it was given anonymously.

I guess I'm just a half full, rather than half empty glass sort of person, who sees more good in the world than bad.:D

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

I don't think you understand what altruism is. Did you read the definition?

altruism
1.the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).

2.Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

You say it's to do with 'doing something for no reason at all'. That's not what altruism is at all. What you describe is more like random anarchy, or just being a bit mental.:D

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

i think alturism has been generalised somewhat - the thread was regarding pure altruism, and yes I do understand what it means. Honestly.

And I dont believe it exists - the watered down version of altruism - ie donating to a charity if your skint isnt really pure altruism.

or giving a warning call that would locate the caller to the presence of a predator - why have they done it ?
they have done it to warn others therefor it is an instinctual attempt to prevent harm to the greater gene pool - if an animal never gave out a warning signal - then the whole pack would be in danger. Most things comes back to the bares bones of the instinct to preserve the gene pool .

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What you're describing isn't altruism, but more akin to gene-centered evolution.

I'll stick with the accepted view of altruism, that of performing acts that benefit other, and that don't seek reward, or massage one's ego.

I guess I just see more good in people, and don't view the world as a place of doom and gloom, and accept that some people perform non-selfish acts.:)

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If a person with religous beliefs performs an act which benefits another, he often thinks he will be 'rewarded in heaven'.

Therefore this cannot be considered altruisic behaviour, so only non believers, who expect no reward, can be truly altruistic.

Re: Pure altruism does it exist?
 

Perhaps we should change the name of the Accy Web Social Group to 'Atheists, agnostics, anti-religious zealots...and those capable of true altruism'.:D