So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Read this and then think again next time you stick your card in the machine. All that money the banks spent to prevent fraud and it can still happen.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

It really doesn't matter which system they come up with there is always some one who will come up with something to get round it. What always amazes me is why do these people put their brains to good use instead of criminal actions, if they are that clever that they can bet these systems why don't they go straight and make an good and honest living

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Maybe they are good honest people.

You have spent too much time around politicians :rolleyes::D

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

They need to iron out the simple things first for instance.. The Chip & Pin machines in stores. At the moment it is so simple to look at someone entering their Pin Number. They aren't very well covered. If they can't get the basics right then what chance have we hoping they'll get the other stuff right.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

as the only one ive ever used is my banks machine, are they encrypted better?:confused:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

The person who stole my money didn't need a pin.He/She just presented a replacement card at the Building Society counter and was allowed to empty my account.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Perhaps we will get someone that knows all about everything coming on and telling us this wouldn't happen with LINUX!
:rofl38:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

omg, that's awful :( I hope you got it sorted??

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Got the money back but it has taken nearly 3 years to sort the rest of the fraud.Had to do it all myself.The police were no help at all.Not interested!!

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Ya Neil, but I'm getting withdrawal symptoms now:D

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

I hope he changed his bank:rolleyes:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

I think i've only used chip and pin once - otherwise i go to the bank and take the money out and pay cash. Dont exactly like chip and pin because there is no way you can hide what numbers you press. At least at the bank i can hide it.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

The Bank I use charge for withdrawels across the counter, if I use the cashmachine, no charge but if I need to draw more than the limit that a cash point allows, I'm charged an extra £3.00 for the pleasure of seeing the person behind the counter, thank goodness these days I'm skint, or I'd be paying out a fortune!

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

wasn't aware that happened,which bank would that be?:confused: seems like thin end of the wedge that to me.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

The same bank one time, (long ago), I was about 30p short of drawing a tenner from the cash machine, Ah, I thought I'll queue up and deposit this 50p, that is enough for me to draw a tenner!

Finally got to the counter, "sorry sir, minimum deposit is £10.00", my explaination that if I had £10, I wouldn't need what was left in the account, that, fell on on deaf and very bored ears.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

thats crap,would be looking elsewhere.:eek:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

I saw a program on this, it was shocking, (but to be fair I was not very supprised,) to see the Banks claiming Chip and Pin was secure, so when a fraud was commited they just washed their hands of it.
Their reasoning is that you must have told someone your chip and pin number and therefore you have broken the rules in your chip and pin contract and guess what!!! the Bank will not reinburse you.
Never liked chip and pin, I use it when I have no choice. Here in Sunny Morocco the supermarket have only one machine and it is impossible to cover the keys when you use it.
In anyone is interested my pin number is:1234

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Now there's a coincidence..................
:cool:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

oh no my luggage is the same number, thay means I'll have to change it, how about 6789?

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

No that's the number of my Swiss bank account.
;)

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

I think chip and pin in stores is left secure than the old signing method, the only thing it saves is a little bit of time.

As for identity fraud like that Benipete, its not that the police don't care, it's just one of the hardest crimes to actually deal with. Murderers and rapists dont tend to be professionals at what they do and leave behind all sorts of evidence, but identity fraud is committed by people who class what they do as a career and are amazing good at it, the same goes for hackers.

The government does actually get experienced hackers to work for them as retribution after convictions, so sometimes they do go straight, but when you imagine the money you can make from being great at these kind of things and not getting caught, why would you want to work for the government for a percentage of your potential income as a crook?

It can take years to sort yourself out once you have been a victim of identity fraud, so basically you just have to be very careful with your documents and information, particularly on the internet, and hope you dont get caught out. I must admit i'm not particularly cautious with my documents, but when you see people getting victimised via identity fraud its not nice at all and it does make you worry!

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Thanks for the input blazey but I gave the police the address the card was sent to in Uxbridge and the address of the building society in Ruislip were the cash was withdrawn along with a store card from Harrods, six mobile phone accounts and dozens of phone numbers.Someone must have a photo of the person concerned.
The police said they could not trace the phone calls because of the EU human rights act.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

are ya serious about em not tracing phone calls cos of human rights? unbelievable, for once even i am gobsmacked, so the scumbag who does it has more ******* rights than the victim.:mad:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

It would appear so and by the way my details were given to the person from a call center in Ireland.They even gave my old address as part of the security so the kind man at the center gave them my new one.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

no but some have complete faith in it.:confused: i did once.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Dig at me eh Less, oh, most ATMs run Windows..........

Sorry I haven't responded earlier but I was away for a couple of days with work(Madrid was very nice BTW :D ).


Chip and pin is more secure than signature for one huge reason. When you pay you must know the pin, the number of times that I paid with a card where the signature strip was worn away and was never challenged was untrue. Even if you have some dodgy cashier and his mate, unless they know your pin they can't authorise the payment. i.e. you have taken the check away from a human who can be lazy/influenced and given it to a machine who can't be swayed.

When you pay, it is your responisibility to make sure your pin is safe. I cover the pin pad with my left hand so no-one can see what number I'm typing and have even been known to ask someone to move who was shoulder surfing. Don't pretend your own lax standards are the banks fault, they aren't

The pinpad on ATMs are fully hardware encrypted so even if you could 'read' the data being passed internally within the ATM its useless to you. The security for the loading of keys is industry standard and extremely secure. To the point that there was a cock up at one bank who 'accidentally' connected a test machine to their mainframe, All Banks had new encryption keys loaded within 24 hours. The current best time to crack the level we encrypt to is thought to be in the region of 200 years( In fact one of the lesser known uses of Sony PS3s is that they can be grid'd to make suprememly powerful number crunching cells for scientific research).

As with all things, security is as good as the weakest link in the chain, that is usually flesh based. Lets be honest, if a bloke threatened you with a knife/gun at an ATM you'd give him the money/pin/card/whatever.


Less, I think you need to find a new bank. I've never heard of someone charging to use the teller service. Can I recommend Barclays, a good bank who only employ the highest calibre of people :D

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

I disagree, I've seen many peoples pin numbers in front of me in stores and at cash machines. Would only take an experienced pick pocket to them attain the card and off you can go around the shops without even having to practice their signature if its on the card.

I also would NEVER EVER recommend barclays lol... go for RBS!

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

:eek:, what ya doing looking at people put there pin number in?, ya supposed to be polite and look away:p, ya cheeky mare:rolleyes::hidewall:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Can you remember them all and Isn't RBS part of the Halifax group with call centers in Ireland that put me through 3 years of pain

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Err did you bother to read my post? Nope, to re-iterate

" Its YOUR responsibility to ensure you keep your pin safe, that means hiding the pad with your hand, positioning your body or even as I said telling them to chuff off"

Take responsibility for something in your life.

Oh and thanks for the insightful evidence or reasoning to back up your NEVER EVER satatement, Oh I forgot, you-re training in Law, eveidence doesn't come into it does it.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

I thought the whole point of a bank was to give THEM the responsibility of keeping our money safe. Though Northern Rock comes to mind so maybe I shouldn't speak so soon.

Signatures don't need to be covered up as there is very few people who could learn your signature off one glance. I don't quite understand where the idea of chip and pin being safer than signatures came from.

A four digit number or someones precise, practiced signature... a pin only needs to be remembered the one time as well and then they can just chance it at the cash machine to their own number.

And no, i dont often read every single post word for word because I do start to get tired with the long study hours, but I try my best to comprehend everything people say to me when i'm fatigued. I have problems with reading computer screens in general so I do get lazy with it.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

The Bank looks after your money, YOU look after the security of your access to it. A 4 digit pin is deemed safe due to the number of chances to 'guess' it against how long it takes to try them all, brute force is going to take far too long to break it. You can't have simple pins like 1234 0000 etc as teh ATMs have a list of what is thought to be too easy.

The problem with signatures is that it relies on the cashier or whoever to check that it matches. AS I POSTED BEFORE pin checking takes that from a human and makes it a logical yes/no. I actually had to sign in "The Works" teh other day, my signature strip is non existant yet she took it without even a blink of an eye. you could have used my card and still got the goods(yes I even know women who used to use their hubbys cards and 'forge' the signature). C&P fixes that.

Not reading all of something is not going to help in your studies or in life, tiredness is not an excuse

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

C&P makes it easier to use someone else card. You need bigger balls to hand over a card and hope you fake signature is ok than it takes to just stick a card in a machine and tap the pin in.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

That and the fact that the cashier/sales person may spot you are not a Mr and you are obviously a Mrs. ( it's happened to me a few times when I have had to turn down the sale ! " Sorry Madam, the card appears to belong to someone else.":p

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Rightly so... though nobody seems to think that for some reason

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

I can't remember numbers but I can forge signatures and there easy to get.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

like I said, you only need to remember it once.

also brings up the point of people who write down their pin numbers and store them in the phones doesnt it?

I would imagine more of the population can remember a 4 digit number easier than forging a signature.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Mines hidden in the phone -so well I can't find it myself !!!

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

its the first obvious place to look though.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

yes but you've got to loose them both at the same time in the same place and then you've got to work out the code. I've got them and I can't work it out.:mad:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

it just takes an experienced pick pocket. and not everyone uses 'code' like you.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

True but having been dipped once I use a decoy-There are 14 pockets in my jacket and when they've tried all them to no avail they will give up. The answer a money belt.Specially in Benidorm:theband:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Easiest way to store it in a phone is to make it part of a dummy number. I have a company Barclaycard which gets used only when I'm away. As this is not that often I can't be bothered to commiit the number to memory. So on my phone I have a contact who I know is my Bcard pin with the pin as part of the number. To make it even haredr to work out I have home and mobile numbers on the contact. There is a case hor being hidden in plain sight you know.

To take this on a step instead of complaining about what we have why not think about what you would like. Fingerprint? doesn't work reliably and you would be complaining when the ATM wouldn't give you cash. iris scanning? again, not fraud proof and not reliable enough.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

Chip and Pin or no Chip and Pin credit card fraud has rsien by 25% in a year up by £553 million:eek:

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

I have a contact in my phone for a Mr Ken Wood, saves me remembering the pin for my car stereo when I take the battery off the car. Not a hidden number just the 4 digits so I don't forget it.

How about when bringing out a new system like chip & pin, making sure the damn card can not be copied. Even Sky TV can stop you copying a card so why can't the banks? I think securing bank accounts is as important as making sure someone does not watch Sky One's Lost without paying.

Re: So you think your 'Chip & Pin' card is safe
 

The problem is teh interaction of chip and pin across the world. The initial specs were that the chip was to be encrypted at a really high level with rolling checks, unfortunately a lot of countries couldn't meet these standards so a compromise was reached. It is still a good level and unfortunately like most things in IT its seen as a target to be beaten, there is no where near teh same financial incentive to copy a sky card, if there was they would spend a lot more time trying.