Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Under new Conservative proposals people aged between 18-21 who are capable of working will be placed on an intensive programme of work-related activity provided by a specialist employer. The aim being to get them into work. Refusal to attend would mean a removal of benefits.

If still jobless after a year they would be moved to a full-time 12 month community work programme. The idea being that ‘whilst young people may not always get the job they want immediately, they are better off in a job and looking to move on than languishing outside of the work place.’

I think its a great idea. There is no reason why hard working tax payers should have to support those who cannot be bothered. Doing it whilst young is the best time as it doesn’t give them chance to fall into the benefits cycle.

More details will be released in a speech tomorrow.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Wonder why it is only aimed at the 18-21 yr olds

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There are plans for over 21's, but I guess its 'easier' to work on people not already set in the benefits mindset therefore the under 21's plan is much tougher. Their aim must be to slowly weeding out the mindset as time goes on and the younger generation get older.

Their proposals for over 21's came out last January and included putting people on 12 month work programmes if they were jobless for 2 years. Which would include training but also valuble community work.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Such as?

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whilst i think theres good mileage in the idea, my reservations are, that as all political parties they will go for the easy touch n penalise the wrong people to a degree, this has always happened in many areas of life, why should this idea be any differant?

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Well it's good they are trying to find ways of getting people into work, hopefully there isn't a "way round it"

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Who would be the wrong people in this scenario?

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I presume this would mean community work such as removing graffiti, community improvement projects etc.

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So if you had a vast army of people doing this for free, it would mean the people currently employed to do this work would be out of a job?

I'm all for retraining and cutting benefits if people refuse to work, but this idea sounds counterproductive.

Companies, and councils, that currently employ people to do this work would have to lay them off...and I suppose they'd then end up on one of these schemes, doing for free what they were once paid to do.

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well if ya can't think of any,i must be wrong. its a perfect world.:rolleyes:

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I read about this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7419748.stm

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Why make such a pointless post? I was hoping you'd point out the ones you were thinking of so I could comment, be that defend the proposals or agree with you.

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Whos pocket would the 'free' labour be lining? Bet yer life it wont be the taxpayer!

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I agree with you these proposals should not be putting people out of jobs that would be completely counter productive. I don't for a second imagine that the Conservatives would be so stupid as to let this happen. Not only do I expect guidelines/restrictions to prevent this, but I also think there is SO MUCH MORE to be done in local areas that currently doesn't because of a lack of funds to employ more people.

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I can see your point Rindi, but when you look around I'm sure you have said more than once "why don't they do something about that" things that never get done. I think its a matter of doing away with the street corner culture which has sprung up over the last 10 to 15 years (and that is not a political comment). Although I'm a little older than you, but it did not happen when we were young, somehow we have to get back on track and at least this is a step in the right direstion, but there is a long way to go.

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Do you propose we leave it how it is? I don't think people living off the state is benefiting the taxpayer.

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i think this is a good idea.. it gets them into some kind of work, gives them something to put on thiers cv's and gives them some kind of experience...

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To me these measures aren't nearly tough enough, and are just the sort of namby-pamby measures I've come to expect from New Labour...whoops, the New Conservatives.

These schemes were tried before in the eighties under various names, Y.O.P.s being one of them.

All that happened was that unscrupulous employers took advantage of cheap subsidised labour, then got rid of them after twelve months, only to take on the next one.

I think the public would find any party more appealing if they were really intent on being tough over the abuse of the benefits system.

Sadly this doesn't seem the case here.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

...but you don't have any details about what actual work the people on these schemes will be doing, so how do you know whose jobs might be at risk, when in competition with this unpaid work force?

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As long as we have cheap labour in immigrants, the government/employers will take the mickey, and people will be on benefits, I propose what I always have, close the immigration loopholes and give people a chance to work for a decent wage, most everything else has been tried, oh, except my other proposal, bring back some kind of national service.

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if ya read my post,i said there was good mileage in the idea, so therefore ya have no need to defend the proposals, as for pointing out, i have no intention if ya can't see them, aint getting into any discussion with you, just stating me view.

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The company gets paid when the person has been in a job for a year. The companies would be providing training and the 'employees' would be doing community work as well. It's not a case of the tax payer subsidising a sweatshop so that private companies can wreak the benifits of free labour.

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I was only trying to help you out but it seems you don't want to suggest who the wrong people would be so I can't respond. If you don't know who the wrong people would be, thats fine, but by saying it I thought you'd have an idea. It just sounds like you're trying to be difficult.

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....and therefore unscrupulous employers can take advantage of a subsidised workforce, thus taking away 'real' jobs that people could do to support themselves and their families, and which paid a fair wage.

It's all been tried before.

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I don't really see what your alternative is, should we not train people?

At the end of the day we both agree that this should not force people out of jobs or it would be a stupid proposal. You need legitimate reason to sack somebody for a start, and the training is going to be run by independent groups for training and guidence, not a job stealing situation at all.

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As I said earlier retraining is fine, but the creation of an unpaid workforce, in competition with people who are currently employed, is counterproductive.

I'm afraid this (not) new proposal hasn't made me want to vote for the Conservatives, though a party who actually were tough on this, or other issues, might.

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As has been said It isn't going to create an unpaid workforce competing with other people. Therefore I hope you will support the proposals. :)

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What a complete load of Cobblers!:rolleyes:

Nothing new just a rehash of what has already been tried and failed

What fantastic sum of money will be offered by these so called Specialist Employers?

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...but as you don't seem able to give details as to what these people on the schemes will actually be doing, you don't know whose, or how many, people's jobs they will put at risk.

Very poorly thought out idea.

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Perhaps they haven't yet reached the eighties on his politics course.;):D

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We have already discussed that it will include community work, that is additionally not replacement. We have already discussed that it will be independent 'back to work' companies that will be training people and helping them find jobs. All they are doing is training them not stealing other peoples jobs. So unless you have any other problems with the proposals other than the ones than the job stealing one which has been resolved, you'd be happy to support the proposals?

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

is it not better for rthem to be out doing something, getting experience of having a job instead of being paid benefits for doing nothing??

It means that benefits is not the easy option and i think it will push them to get a proper job that pays better.

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I don't think it has been tried before. I thought YOP's created job stealing according to Garinda, but this won't happen under the new proposals.

The specialist employers will get the amount equal to benefits as I understand it. Be that voluntary organisations or companies. Training costs money, but I think it is right that we get people into jobs because in the long run it is better than paying them to be unemployed.

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No.

They've been tried before, and failed.

I'd happily support much stronger proposals.

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They haven't been tried before. I understand you can't u-turn on the matter because that would mean you'd have been wrong at somepoint on Accringtonweb. ;) Nevermind Gary, it happens to the best of us. :p

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You've not supplied any detail as to how this scheme is different from the schemes listed in this link, to make me think otherwise.

'Meanwhile, the emphasis of the MSC was increasingly to alleviate the adverse effects of unemployment, and particularly youth unemployment. YOP had been heavily criticised for the poor quality of training, and many employers used subsidised YOP trainees as cheap labour without subsequently employing them. In 1983 YOP was replaced by the Youth Training Scheme (YTS), initially a 12-month work-based programme of basic vocational training and experience with 13 weeks off-the-job training or further education.'

http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/lrnan...l/thistory.htm

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Does it create a job at the End of it?

What wage will be paid?

What plans are in place to ensure the people on the Scheme receive the correct training, will there be any qualifications at the End of it?

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No need for a U-turn, I've said from the off this proposal seems ill-conceived, and I would have been more impressed with a much tougher stance, rather than this approach.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

andrewb
simple question if you were in the position of this proposal would your judgement still be the same?

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Trouble is benefits has become a culture & simply mathematically makes more sence to have some benefit related income than working soley as the expectation was in the generations before. Wages comparable to benefits, means its easier to play on yer playstation all day rather than a hard days graft, unfortunately until the desirable income to work rather than claim, the idea will be flawed in the too pc/everybodies rights etc is balanced. The gov in place promised affordable childcare available to anyone who needs it, mmm not much of that around & requires tax credits to offset the huge costs. Employment needs a overhaul as it doesn't meet the needs to the workforce with families & generally now there is both parents needing to work, flexi time/job share/part time generally is a pain in the butt, as the working tax credits are based on min hours rather than wage, 16hrs is the min requirement but a lot of employers are bypassing this by offering employment upto 15hrs p/w, meaning that if u take the job u cant claim working tax or have to get 2 p/t jobs in order to afford to live or to get the entitlement.

Unfortunatley the price of living & the goverment have effectively made the benefit trap a wider trap for majority of people, gone are the days like my childhood where one goes out to work & managed to upkeep his/her family, mortgage & 1 holiday a year without benefits other than the child benefit which wasn't much. Gone is the open job market where employers were crying out for factory/mill workers that took the unskilled, like walking from 1 job straight to another [what a lucky generation u were hehe], now its about skills, experience, wages, & heavy competition for a job not only with our own workers now its opened to europeans!!

Whether the Thatcherism years have made the generations from it greedier & killing off many labour forces, expetation high, that has gone beyond repair, fine to blame the current government but thatcher cut the grain 1st.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

As in if I was unemployed? Yes of course it would be the same because I don't believe in being paid to not work. Why should somebody who works 40 hours at week on minimum wage pay for me to not work?

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

I'd hope that if you were ever in that situation you actually went out and found a job, mainly because the benefits system was so unattractive it wouldn't be a long term option...then you wouldn't even need to go on any daft scheme.;)

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But if I lacked skills required for a job it would be fantastic to get training in order to help me work for a living.

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Unfortunately altho your conservative ideas are nice on paper albeit not new, having done many years of voluntary work within the community unpaid, im looking for work & yet to no avail. Trouble with the idea the BIG FLAW, is that as i find ..... is that im in demand if i work voluntary they cant wait to take me on, bend over backwards which is lovely BUT, thats as far as it leads me, it hasn't led to fruitful employment nor does it impress as much as u would think on your CV. The point being employers would be falling over themselves to get voluntary workers especially if there are perks for then whilst the bonus of not costing them any wages, so effectively getting many weeks work for nowt, so when it comes to the end of the period of this new deal idea for a person they will be chucked to scrap heap as employer can have a reel of free workers, laughing to the bank, where the person who hopes to gain a paid job afterwards will join a queue of others in mean time will be having to claim something.

There will always be jobs going for people wanting/required to work unpaid but as for paid employment - its a different story.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

I have to say i went on a similar scheme a couple of years ago where you went and looked for jobs for hours 3 or 4 times a week and you could phone employers from there and they provided you with paper and envelopes and stamps and for me it was great.
I found a job within a month and am still there now.
Maybe the scheme just needs a few changes to make it work.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Hope you're not work shy?

I could get you a job, regardless of any meaningless training, that would have you earning and contributing to society today.

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There isn't going to be free work to replace paid workers. I hope this aleviates your fears.

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Yes you could, because I have skills required, even if that is just being able to count and use a till. A lot of people cannot do some of the basic things.

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[quote=andrewb;581723 I hope this aleviates your fears.[/quote]

No.

Must try harder.;)

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Well its really a case of 'the sky appears blue' and 'no it isn't' if you go and buy a paper and read it I don't think you will find any job stealing proposals. It is not a case of free labour. As much as you dislike Thatcher, please try not to confuse policies that may have been somewhat similar (oh and did hers remove benefits like this one does?)

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Not really andrew, the work is going to be coming from somewhere, graffitti scrubers are usually paid by the council, gardeners that would be contract would be gone to free workforce..........jobs are going to have to come from somewhere & no matter what area of work that is there are no doubt people that are requiring a paid job to get off the benefit system yet to be taken by free workforce, its going to stub a lot of toes.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

I'm treating you as unskilled, and with no experience, and I could still find you a job, though sadly as the benefit system stands you may decide a life watching, or appearing on Trisha, is more appealing.

Sadly this proposal from the Conservatives doesn't address this issue.

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If you think that enough community work is being done in Accrington alone then you have been sucessfully brainwashed by the Conservative council.

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What would the job be? And yes it does address the issue. If you think after the 12-month scheme and at least 3 years unemployed, they're going to just go back to giving them the benefits and pretend nothing ever happened, you really underestimate them.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Hehehehe Andrew love the enthusiam, but really u need to get of the protective hands of the uni & come down to accy town centre spend a few days admiring the age group u speak of there is plenty there hanging out u cant miss em they are so obvious.:D

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

There are a million and one community based jobs that do not get done nowadays that need to be done. This scheme does not have to take away paid for jobs.

the one thing that all fit and healthy 18 - 21 year olds have is energy and currently because society pays them for doing nothing this energy is often wasted on anti social activities, which in turn cost the tax/rate payer money.

We need to harness that energy into something that is beneficial for society, This age group, and fit active older people should be doing something that is good for society eg the rest of us. This is not Conservative Dogma it was actual Marx whos said something to the effect of:
'From each according to his ability to each according to their need' Marx, Communism and Real Labour never advocated that sections of society, who were fit and healthy, should sit on their backsides all day doing nothing but causing trouble and problems, whilst the rest of us slogged our guts out to keep them. Personally I am sick of huge tax bills that necessitate me working 7 days a week so some kid can doss around all day doing sod all.
Forget Conservative theology lets get back to Ideology that understood how people really function and make the world a fairer more equal place. If we have to do this through the Conservative party then unfortunately, so be it

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I have also met people who have managed to get jobs by attending this sort of thing and believe it is great that the help is available for people that need it.
The problem with the proposals on offer are that the jobs just aren't out there for a lot of people. When the jobs are there we have got Europeans flooding into the country who are working for less than minimum wages. Any employer is going to opt for cheap labour it is a sad fact of life. As was said earlier it is time to stop immigration and it is time for politicans to recognise this is at the root core of the problem.

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Dont disagree with ya Polly tho think it needs to go further than that........start at school particulary high school where future deciding starts, many have no ambition of hope of anything or at least a better way than the downspiral road we call the benefit system.

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I think this partly describes why I am a Conservative. I don't have any ideology to follow, so I'm quite happy to agree with whatever is the right thing, no matter which side of the political spectrum that comes from.

Very good post, I hadn't thought of it from a Marxist perspective.

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As an employer I strongly object to your comments about any employer preferring people on below minimum wage
Stop immigration and you must expect other countries to do likewise which will lead to a lot of Brits who have emigrated or who intend to being very upset, including myself as this is my long term aim.

Britain has got become more competitive, this is not helped by Nat Min Wage or the Benefits Culture. We need to except responsability for our own lives sand those of our children

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Apologize for lumping all employees together but we have to be realistic here and most of them when employing unskilled labour will go for the cheaper option.
The National Minimum wage means nothing when people are coming from other countries and working for less than that. People have fought long and hard to make being employed as safe as possible and now it is all for nothing. Some employers are expecting people to work twelve hour shifts seven days a week and in this day and age nobody should have to work all those hours.

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Actually the NMW means a lot to people who come from 'abroad' . Yes in some instances it means that they can undercut the local workforce, work all hours for peanuts and be grateful for it, but not in all cases. In some cases it means the hope4 of a better life for which they are prepared to work, which is more than some of the natives who want us all th keep them for nothing.
Personally, I have the greatest respect for these ;foreigners' who are prepared to work hard and put in some effort, without screeming about their 'human rights'. Btw I do not employ anyone below national minimum wage rates, indeed I employ no on or below these rates and I do not employ anyone who is not a British National although a few of my employees or from asian heritage because I find their morals are more in line with the companies ethos

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The NMW also means a lot to a lot of British Nationals too and why should they work for less? Yes I do agree that a lot of people will sit back and be kept but by the same token there are people desperate for jobs who can't get them.

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Why should they work for less? Mainly because a lot of them simply arn't worth what the law demands they are paid, hence they just don't get a job at all
As for people desperate for job, there may be some but there are a hell of a lot that do not want to work. A few years ago I interviewed someone and when I asked her why she had applied for the job she said, 'cos me mum said I had to'.

Employers should be able to pay what the employee is worth. Many small companies now avoid taking on employees and there is nothing being done to reverse this trend.

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on that basis then, i can presume you are paying above national average then? if so yer one of a few.

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I do apologise, it turns out it has been tried before. It was implemented in New York and over a decade it reduced unemployment from 3million to 1.3million.

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Yes, off the top of my head all my staff are paid above NMW, the professionals are paid well above that, the unqualified average about 7.00 or 7.50 per hour., less of course for those under 18 (only one of those).

I pay these rates because I havnt got time or the energy to keep replacing staff, and it works
We have in this country a NMW culture whereby staff know that regardless of what they do, where they do it and how well or badly they do it they will get the same wage. The consequence of this is they put no effort and enthusiasm into their work, you can see this particularly in the Service Sector

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

So if unemployed people are on these schemes the figures will be massaged to look like they are in a job, when in fact they are just on this programme?

Yes, you're right, that's what the various schemes in the eighties did here, when we had over three million unemployed, the figures were played about with.

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

I didn't say that at all. Please try to stop confusing this with schemes in the eighties. They're not the same.

It's not included as a job when you're on the scheme, as you still recieve benefits. Even if it was, the scheme is once only, so over 10 years the statistics are pretty clear. It works.

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It now seems that the Tories will insist that people being releast from prison will have to look for work and not just go striaght back on the dole, which seems good in theory, but I have my doubts if it will work in practice, lots of employers won't take on ex-cons, and a lot of ex-cons go back to their bad old ways. Its the old catch 22 position:(

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

You've supplied no evidence that this scheme is in anyway different from the ones tried in the eighties, nor have you specified exactly what work in the community the people will be doing, so we have no way of knowing if people's genuine jobs will be at risk because of this unpaid workforce.

I'd honestly love to say I thought they'd come up with something new to tackle this very real problem, but I don't think it is, nor would I consider it a tough enough approach.

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good on yer, pity there aint more about.:)

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If only all employers could be encouraged to see this as a worthwhile way to treat their employees, (of any age and skill level).
Then perhaps because of the hope of a long term 'secure' job with decent rewards, more people would be interested in getting out there and supporting themselves.

The old adage, 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys', just like the employer hopes to have a long term and profitable business, the employee wants to work for a fair return and be able to plan for his/her future.

These two things aught to run in parallel that would benefit us all, there will always be a small amount of people preferring not to work, just as there will always be some employers ready to take advantage of using such schemes rather than putting some effort into creating 'proper jobs'.

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best post on this subject IMHO,

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Well said Less, karma sent

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I think a lot of this does apply with local organisations, its when you get national and international companies with huge Human Resources Departments that the problems set in

Re: Tough Plans for Young Jobless
 

Instead of karma, could you send me a post 'credit' so I can get back into the arcade?

It would make the whole system worthwhile, wouldn't it?


:o