Joining the army not to fight?
 

I was having a convo the other day with a guy who was in the bar

around 15/20 years ago he'd joined the army and served for some time - however the first gulf war broke out and he quit as he didnt want to fight in a war...

it got me thinking why would you get a job in an organisation who's pliminary role was to fight when the need arose?

he then went AWOL went back served his sentance and then left after buying out his contract.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

I heard of a couple of instances of that Mani in the first Gulf War, I heard one lads father say he didn't join the army to fight, I quitely asked him what had he joined up for given the fact that armies to tend to fight occasionally;)

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

exactly.

its like why do u think they're training you to fire that gun? for the may day bank holiday?

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

This must be a common occurence..a mate of mine joined up in the 70's..did a stint in Ulster then went AWOL, I know of another lad that went AWOL at the start of the first Gulf War.. like Mani says they both gave themselves up after a few months.
Myself and a mate joined at 18yrs ..it does sound stupid but the thought of actually fighting and being shot at never entered my head...because there was no ongoing "war" at the time.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

when i had my careers interview one of the options was to join the army as a musician...... i was told i wouldnt have to fight

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

never saw the need to join up, nowt to do wi being a "Tart" just never reckoned much to the fight fer "Queen @ Country" bit, after seeing the effect WW2 had on me dad, which i never knew about until me nan died. its too personal @ involved to put on here, but they can shove it were the sun don't shine.:cool:

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

When my late husband joined the RAF he did so to start a career in electronics. Rather than going to university he studied for an HND through the RAF. He was in Bomber Command and worked on the, then, "secret" computer navigational bombing system in V-Bombers in the early 60s. He knew that, in the event of war, he would be in the front line and, in fact, was on stand-by to fly to Florida in the Bay of Pigs incident which we all thought was going to be the start of World War 3.

The point is he had joined the RAF in 1958, not that long after WW2, Palestine, Korea, Malaya etc. and I suppose everyone in those days associated the forces with having to fight. I know we've had some nasty wars since then but, apart from the "policing" role in N Ireland, they've tended to be of much less duration and, with reference to WW2, not so close to home. I think some youngsters now think of the army as an apprenticeship in a uniform. They are certainly not told by the recruitment office that, when necessary, their primary role will be to kill or be killed and, as well as learning a trade, they will be trained to that end. It must come as a big shock when they're told they're going to use that gun for real.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

No doubt about it.. the aim was to use the army as a way of getting a trade such as an HGV licence..that's the reason I had, only the other day a lad of 17 told me he was thinking of joining up for that reason.. what can you do?.. I did point out there is a good chance he'd get shot at.. but you can't lecture them .

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

i do think recruitment does seem to place an emphasis on anything but the fighting in alot of the adverts

like the ones which show the soliders being "normal" they're all laughing and having a great time rather than gritting it out in the desert. i can understand if he didnt want to fight if he was joining up as an engineer/doctor or in a non-combatant field but he signed up as infantry!

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

When you "sign up" you are not allocated to a particular section of the army.. you go to an assessment/training barracks and then you are supposed to be placed in a job that suits you and the army..unless it's changed over the last 20yrs

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

The Canadian Forces are pretty much up front about the deal. The latest ads go something like "Fight with the Canadian Forces/Combatez avec les forces Canadiens".

As an aside, the 87th Canadian soldier killed in action in Afghanistan is on his way home.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

On a little wander ... and one that will annoy Barb ... the Canadian Federal Court of Appeals recently overuled a govt decision to send an American deserter back to the US. The court set up new guidelines that will make Canada the safe haven for US deserters that it was in the Viet Nam war.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Just reading some more about the Court of Appeals decision. It does appear that in Canada, one can join the armed forces and choose not to fight if one can prove that what one is ordered to do contravenes the Geneva Convention.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

In the First World War, being a musician was one of the most dangerous occupations ... musicians often became stretcher bearers who had to go grab the wounded under fire.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

When I joined the Royal Navy in 1954, during the first 6 weeks of basic training it was all about fighting and being shot at. Square bashing to instil discipline, rifle firing with live rounds so that if needed we could defend the ship from mass boarding, fire fighting to put out ship fires, damage control to try and save the ship from sinking, boarding parties for attacking other small craft and going ashore fully armed to bolster the authority of the government against insurgents.

Sadly we were not issued with cutlasses although the officers wore a sword. How quaint!

We were under no illusions that there could come a time when we might have to go to war, but not until we were 18.

However going to war in a warship is far removed from going to war on foot and back in the fifties a warship was a pretty safe place to be until you met an enemy warship with bigger guns than us. Then it would get hairy. Not that I ever experienced that pleasure except in exercises.

However surely everyone who joins the ARMED FORCES must realise that fighting might be involved at some time. Surely the various battle exercises would give them a clue.

The only full time none combatant in the armed forces is the padre mani. And even then some padres during WWII were known to pick up a gun and use it. Medical personnel were sort of none combatants and in general were recognised as such by both sides but if push came to shove they had to pick up arms.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Jim...Where in the fifties did you meet an enemy warship with bigger guns than the Royal Navy?

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

The yanks, who else?

We never fired live shells nor had live ones fired at us during exercises. We used starshell that exploded in mid air well above the ship (in theory, although we had a starshell whistle through or rigging now and again) and a flare on a small parachute drifted down or ‘break-up’ shot for targeting a drogue pulled by an aircraft.

If it was above the ship it was classed as a hit. Our little old 4.5 inch main armament could only fire about 8 miles but they could reach us from a longer range.

With our armament we could take on anyone, if we could get close enough. The STAAG’s and Bofors for aircraft (the old slow variety but then there were few jets) the big guns for pounding ships or shore and ten torpedoes to dispatch other ships. With assorted small arms, but no cutlasses. Ratings had a .303 Lee Enfield rifle, PO’s and CPO’s had a Lanchester sub machine gun and officers had a Webley revolver and sword. OK! They didn’t really have a sword except for ceremonial occasions.

You will notice from the picture that there is only one lifeboat, a 32 feet cutter that would hold maybe 30 people. There was a 28 feet whaler on the port side, which held 28 men. In the event of a ‘problem’ it was a case of “Stand back you cowardly ratings, officers first.”

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Working for the Army and being married to it - i do see a hell of a lot of young new recruits ( here in Germany) - a couple of weeks out of basic training - being thrown to the lions so to speak by being deployed - a lot will jack before they have to go - a lot will do one tour and when they realize they will have to go back in a year's time because the army is so undermanned - they will do anything to get out.. having said that there is a large percentage of lads/lassses (no lasses in the infantry) that do volunteer to go right back and fight ( especially if their last tour was relatively easy and low casualty rates) ..unfortunately you will get the odd one or two who didn't think they will have to go and get sand on their boots - then it is a shock to the system!

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

that really surprises me gingerninja.:confused: was under the impression the forces are more "selective" these days, how come people with IQs like those get through?:confused:

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Maybe the selection proses has been eased cashy, seeing we're short of troops these days:eek:

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

A little question to clear up some confusion: you say that there are no women in the infantry; does this mean that the British don't employ women in combat roles? The Canadian forces do employ women in combat tho' not to the same extent as they do men, of course. In fact, one of the 88 Canadian KIAs in Afghanistan was a woman: Captain Niccola Goddard, forward artillery observer in the RCHA was killed in action near Kandahar last year.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

It depends on how you define combat roles.

Women serving on warships are in potential combat roles even if they don’t actually man the guns and missile launchers as is every person on board. Incoming missiles and shells do not discriminate as they shred a ship to ribbons. Neither does an exploding shell in the field.

I understand that no woman will be knowingly be placed in a position where hand to hand combat might occur - in other words the infantry.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

I think better described as 'Front Line' in all services.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Thanx .... that clears things up some .... so, that means that in the British forces, a woman could act as a forward artillery observer, as did the late Captain Goddard.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Yes...........Forward Observer to report target activity means in front of the guns, not on the Battlefield. A forward observation post is created to direct the fire of the guns. If an OP is spotted by the enemy and their guns fire to destroy the OP that is war.
An OP is not considered as 'Front Line'
Been there done that.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Everyone is in the front line on a warship. In the event of a forthcoming engagement the ship doesn’t head hell for leather to the nearest port to dump the girls.

What might happen is if a situation like the Falklands ever occurred again. Any female personnel might get off loaded before the ship sets sail like they would do with any junior seamen – that is under 18. But once at sea they take their chances same as everyone else.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Jim...........That's bullshine and you know it.
If a warship is sent into a war situation, young seamen and female staff would be evacuated by chopper.
I know that a female member of staff was 'captured' in the gulf, but we were not at war with Iran.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Pray tell me how do you evacuate when the nearest ship or land is hundreds if not thousands of miles away?

Then there is the operational point. Women on warships have various duties not confined to a non combative roll. (cooks, writers, sick berth attendants etc) They act as radar plotters and are central to the fighting efficiency of the ship. Female officers do bridge duties. Evacuate them and who takes their place?

When a ship commissions they do work up and shake down exercises where every man and woman is put through their paces so that everyone knows exactly what they should be doing in times of combat. You can’t just dump a rookie behind a radar screen and expect them to perform.

Larger warships have a civilian laundry crew and also a civilian NAAFI manager and assistant. They go to war with the rest and their action station duty is to aid the stretcher-bearers.

That is not bullshine. It’s the reality of life on a warship.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Only in exercise operations as you have experienced to your own admission....Do you really know what happens on a war footing?
Do you consider rules of engagement?
Do you really know what goes on on a warship in a theatre of war?
Point me in the direction of your arguements and I will read it with interest.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

First of all my naval experience ended in 1967. Things are different today. But the son of a very close friend was down at the Falklands and his son is now out in the gulf.

But yes I do know what happens on a war footing. My ship HMS Alamein with me onboard spent over 6 months around the Cyprus waters during the conflict on that island where (once again) the British were “piggy in the middle” trying to keep the peace. Now that wasn’t a fully blown out war at sea and there were no enemy naval craft trying to blow us out of the water (at least whilst we were moving) but we spent day after day after day at Damage Control State 2. That is one step down from action stations. Our job was to stop and search all craft, large or small, day or night in the Cyprus territorial waters. Some didn’t like being told to heave to and wait to be boarded and tried to outrun us. HMS Alamein was capable of 35 knots so they couldn’t do it and a shot across their bows convinced them of the futility to try.

On the odd night off duty, we spent our time at action stations whilst anchored off Kyrenia. Why? Because the EOKA terrorists were not averse to trying to plant limpet mines on our hull.

Not an all out war I grant you but as far as our duties were concerned it was the next best thing. The small arms fire from the “gun runners” was real enough and we had the scars on the upper deck to prove it and three bodies.

I never considered the rules of engagement. That was the skipper’s job. He led, we followed. Actually we couldn’t do anything else.

I’ve answered your questions even if you had to ask one twice. So how about you answering mine? Or is that too awkward to answer – hence ignore it.

Would you like to relate your experiences on a warship? I’m all agog.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

I think you know the answer to that. I was in the Army and was actually on active service whilst in Malaya and have medals to prove it.
I am not the one who relates to experiences in 'War Games' and exercises in the Services.
You would be the first one to question a post if the subject matter was unclear.
I will put it another way. Have you ever been on active service?

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Can you not read? It’s all there in my post #31.

However you still haven’t told us your answer to my question. “Pray tell me how do you evacuate when the nearest ship or land is hundreds if not thousands of miles away?”

This might be of interest - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7463636.stm

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

I can read alright.....Post 31 does not give the answer to my question.
When do you get situations where warships are travelling alone without support vessels?
Yes the article was of interest thanks.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

What planet are you from Roy? It states that we were on a war footing off shore to Cyprus. DC2 is cruising in a war zone and DC1 is action stations when action was imminent.

We cruised on our own all the time in the Med when going to and from Malta and Gibraltar and on patrol. The only time that we cruised as a battle fleet was to and from Chatham heading for the Med and during work up exercises before taking up station off Cyprus. We patrolled the north side of Cyprus and one of our sister ships did the south side. We were part of the 2nd Destroyer squadron that consisted of the Alamein, Corunna, Barrosa and Agincourt, who was captain “D”. Two ships on patrol, one off on jollies around the Med and one tied up in Gib, usually going through some sort of refit. But that was then. Today it may be different.

Now about that question that you so pointedly ignore. Cat got your tongue???

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Eric - my husband (who claims he is right in everything and has been an infantry soldier for 24 years now) categorically states that no woman can take part in a front line combat role - there are female clerks, dog handlers, medical and educational staff - but no female infantry soldiers (it is against the law apparently) as for the observer bit - not sure on that one - in Telic(Iraq) and Herrrick (Afghanistan) female observers would probably not be used due to the obvious cultural implications - and just used for rear party (i.e not front-line) support duties.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

ok ... that clears things up ... I hadn't thought of "the obvious cultural implications", but Canadians do not seem to be overly sensitive about that. As far as I know, women do not udertake "front line" duties in the Canadian infantry. They do serve on HMC ships, and, obviously in the artillery; and as far as I can remember, tho' I will have to check this out, women have served as crew members in the tanks of the Royal Canadian Dragoons.

Thing is .... and the vast majority of Canadians believe this ... it's time to get our soldiers out of there; the costs far outweigh the gains. 88 fine young men, and a very brave woman sent home in flag-draped coffins .... and for what:confused::mad::mad::mad:

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

If a serviceman or woman is mamed or killed in action whilst fighting the enemy............That is the front line.
Break it down into as many parts as you like....If a young woman is killed, as was the case with the young officer, the observation post was an obvious target for the enemy....this makes it the front line.
Don't come back with the obvious, women are not employed on the front line, been covered in previous arguements.
The Officer was placed in a quite legitimate job behind enemy lines, but, in the circumstances she lost her life.
Let's have the comment's from some ex serving soldiers who have been placed in a similar situation...Not from a long range sniper who knows sweet FA about the Army.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

I do believe that “The front line is where the enemy missiles, bullets and shells land, not where they are fired from” already made that clear.

I never said that women are not employed on the front line. I stated that women would not be put in a position where hand-to-hand fighting was a possibility for pretty obvious reasons. Do keep up!

Quote:

the observation post was an obvious target for the enemy....this makes it the front line.

Yeeees!

Quote:

The Officer was placed in a quite legitimate job behind enemy lines,

So the enemy was firing towards a position behind its own lines then?

We used to have a saying in the navy that went, “engage brain BEFORE opening gob.” Actually that isn’t true, I made it up but nonetheless it certainly applies to you.

Can I draw your attention to your post #26 where you stated:
“Forward Observer to report target activity means in front of the guns, not on the Battlefield. A forward observation post is created to direct the fire of the guns. If an OP is spotted by the enemy and their guns fire to destroy the OP that is war.
An OP is not considered as 'Front Line'”

Do make up your mind. An OP is either front line or it isn’t. You can’t have it both ways.

However it is doubtful if Captain Goddard was behind enemy lines. The chances are that she was in front of our lines but not as far forward as to infiltrate the enemy lines. Target spotting behind enemy lines is usually reserved for the SAS, Royal Marine Commandos or Paras.

Talking of someone knowing sweet FA, as you put it, about something, your stupid statement of “If a warship is sent into a war situation, young seamen and female staff would be evacuated by chopper.” illustrates that quite perfectly.

However you still haven’t told us your answer to my question. “Pray tell me how do you evacuate when the nearest ship or land is hundreds if not thousands of miles away?”

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

I'll leave you to pick the bones out of that lot....sad really.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Why on earth should I want to ‘pick the bones’ out of something that I wrote? That’s your job except that you cannot because it illustrates the nonsensical rubbish that you publish from time to time.

Yes it is sad, sad that your reputation and credibility has been destroyed by your own hand.

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

My job?...........reputation and credibility still intact.
Been there done it and got the medals to prove it.
What is sad....you still think you have a point to prove and it goes on and on.:rolleyes:

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

This long range sniper (outdated and derogatory term for an Army wife) - knows a lot more than you give me credit for - as i work for the British Army in Germany - I have been on exercises -I liaise with Brigadiers, Major Generals and the lads on the ground from Pte to WO1 - I'm part of Media Ops and I edit an Army magazine (oh and my husband is still serving after 24years) - if you look at my original post i said there are no women in the infantry and I will stand by that - I may know Sweet FA - but my husband knows a hell of a lot more about the army than most - he's been there - got the full chest of medals - and i ain't gonna argue with him!

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

I think you've got that wrong....The sweet FA thing was directed at an AB who was trying to give us all a lesson about the army.
Long range sniper...refering to Army wife...that must be something new.
Maybe an Infrantry or serving in Germany expression?

Re: Joining the army not to fight?
 

Royboy - sorry to jump on yer like that - but long range sniper is an expression I've heard so many times referring to the wifey's - it could be an Infantry term - the lads think we take them out from a distance! I've spent time with disgruntled Limbs ( blokes that live in the mess - my other half was one before and after he met me! hahaha) - and they can be a bit anti wife! So I apologize again if i jumped to the wrong conclusion - but being an army wifey I'm forever doing that! Soz X