is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

i wrote to our MP a couple of years ago and asked him if he ever felt any personal shame, that this part of east lancs was so poor and disadvantaged compared to towns and citys south of birmingham,

i also asked him what he thought the reaction would be if the people up here really new how prosperous the south really is. to his credit he did reply, but only with the usual platitudes. i have come to the conclusion that it just does not make any difference who is in power in westminster, after 11 years of new labour it aint made any quantifiable differance to our lives as far as i can see. i wont be voting at the next election, unless of course someone with the backbone to do what MPs are supposed to do, namely represent their constituants, and not just screw as much as they can out of the john lewis list.

they even claim for a TV licence, when almost every week the observer prints lists of people being fined for not having one, if an MP buys a gallon of diesel he claims it back, so why should they worry about us.

when is the electorate going to wake up to these greedy hypocrites, who are living the high life and leaving us to pick up the tab.:mad::mad::mad:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I can't help wondering how old you are den, myself I have ever believed in socialism, but like I have always maintained each to is own. When elected those people (of any party, parliamentary I mean ) forget all the promises they made on the doostep and have to buckle to the party line, Greg has made, to his credit, some moves to pacify the Hyndburn public, but he's a party man, first and formost, so don't expect him to do hand stands at any left wing request from you or anyone else, for Greg is now as left wing as I am, and I'm just to the left of Atila the Hun:rolleyes:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that Greg Pope should feel personal shame that we have deprived areas round here.

He's not to be blamed for that.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Socialism is alive and well, and still misunderstood ... the worst thing that ever happened to socialism was the Russian Revolution, which installed State Capitalism, esp. under Stalin, rather than socialism or communism. Socialism, in some form, is at the core of many religions: it is hard to read the teachings of Jesus without socialism coming to mind .... I think that what concerns you is regional inequality, and the inequitable distribution of the national wealth. These inequalities are more apt to increase under political parties to the right of center. It is strange, but in a democracy the hardest sell for any active socialist, is to convince the poor that they have the power to change the way things are, not necessarily tho' revolution, but by means of the ballot box.

Unfortunately, the poor are too busy trying to make a go of it. They don't have the time or, many of them, the education to sort thro' all the bs that comes out of Whitehall .... or Ottawa for that matter.

I would argue that political parties have to recognise the growing gap between rich and poor, and do something about it, because in many parts of the world govts. are sitting on a powder keg. And they don't realise that the fuse may already have been lit.:dflam:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I think regardless of poltical persuasion Greg Pope will actually help any of his constituents if there is something he can do. He can't please them all.:confused:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I have the feeling you mean never? Get that keyboard sorted will you.;)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

and that is the nub of the problem. We need Independent MP's. People who really live in thea reas they represent, not just have postal addresses (I am not having a go at any MP here and I know it does not apply to the Accrington)
We need MP's who have a real stake in the future of the area that they represent and who are not controlled by any party who virtually becomes their employer.

The Nort in particular desperately needs local representation and its own centre of local goverment, it has certainly worked for Wales and Scotland. A local power centre (assembly) means that local people can be involved as they dont have to spend all week away from their families and they are constantly in touch with their community.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Has that great socialist Arthur Scargill still got his white Rolls Royce?I know at one time he was afraid to get it out of the garage.:hidewall:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

The problem of regional disparity is common to many countries ... in Canada, it involves designating provinces as "have" or "have not" ... have not provinces get what is known as "equalization payments" out of Federal revenues. This is done according to formulae worked out at conferences between the Feds and representatives of the provinces. It works, sort of, but there are always arguments and general grumblings. And Canadian MPs have been known to vote against their party on matters which have a negative impact on the area they represent. Who can forget Elijah Harper ...... ;)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Go study the Welsh Assembly it works. I have recently seen it in action. I am sure very few of the Welsh would give it up, of course it will be difficult to make a true study from so far away

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

If they'd done a bit less singing and a bit more digging they wouldn't have to relay on Pot Noodles.Anyway we may need the pits again the way it's going.:hidewall::hidewall:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

My college at Uni is known as the socialist college (i found this out after I became a member of the college so I am a bit of an outcast when i'm with college friends!) They all call eachother comrade and sometimes when they are taking the mick they call me it too. Mainly they just whine about everything and get nothing done. I hate to judge all socialists just off the ones I know at uni, but they come across as being a bit whiney and don't actually do much about anything.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I think there's some confusion about the true definition of socialism, which is to be expected considering the way that 'extreme' ideologies have been demonised over the last few decades.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Your right Roy, this lap top is a nuisance for that, I missed that one though, I usually check before posting, but I'd just had my first dink for a fortnight and couldn't be assed:D

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I disagree. I don't think it is as easy as thinking that there is a north/south divide.

For instance Cornwall has the lowest income per person in the country.

I lived in London for sixteen years, and there are very poor parts of the capital. Just as there are very wealthy areas in the north, such as Cheshire, North Yorkshire, and even parts of Lancashire.

I think any problems we have are nationwide, and the rot set in long before this government came to power.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Agreed.

Who exactly elected Prince 'air miles' Andrew as a trade Ambassador for Britain?:rolleyes:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I don't understand how socialism would even work. I don't see how society can function without some sort of hierarchy of wealth.

Somebody be kind enough to explain how socialism works and if it existed in this country, what state we could expect to be in.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I suggest you read Animal Farm It explains it all.:cool:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

All animals are Equal, but some animals are more equal than others ay Beni:rolleyes:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

That's the one.As true now as it was then.Beware piggy faced politicians.:hehetable

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

It was a socialist Labour government who introduced free education, and a free health service for all.

Before that if you were ill, and couldn't afford a visit to the doctor, you died.

If you'd left a will, you'd have to find someone to read it, because the chances are your nearest and dearest would be illiterate.

They also intoduced paid holidays for workers, and benefits if you were too ill or unable to work, which happily meant the workhouses for the poor ceased to exist.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

The good bits are all here, as Garinda has named!

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

true,pray inform us what services the opposition has bestowed upon us?

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Is there any other kind:confused:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

The same services the bull provides for the cow;) And the right to remain silent about it:D

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

"Don't understand", "don't see" .... that explains it.:rolleyes: "Hierarchy of wealth" is fine, and understandable ... I have a nicer car than my neighbour, but not as nice a one as the guy down the street ... what is unconscionable is the ever increasing inequity in income and opportunity, between the "haves" and the "have nots". And the embracing of an ideology that seeks to widen the gap.:(

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I do think that there has always been a north/south divide; from the harrowing of the north, by way of the overthrow of Richard lll, thro' the sort of thing Mrs. Gaskell expressed in some of her novels ... but you are probably right in saying it is not as "real" as it was.

And I would agree, as would many, that the rot did set in a long time ago. But I would argue that all who agree with that, would have a different opinion as to when the rot set in.:confused:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Also introduced was national insurance to be paid by every employee and set aside to pay for the service.....never happened. Barbara Castle was the first to question where the money had gone....Swallowed up in the public purse and used on other projects that could not be identified was the answer and no accounts to justify where it had gone.
Pensions....good idea at the time. Gordon Brown got his sticky fingers in the pie........millions lost thousands.
Education...I'll go for that...agree good thinking.
The EU Treaty has now been ratified....Surprised that the announcement was not picked up by some of our wide awake members and the chance for a rant seems dead in the water.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

It may have been ratified, but it can't actually take effect because all 28 countries have to agree to it and the Irish have voted against it in their referendum. If the government had not broken their promise to the British electorate, doubtless we would have voted against it too.

Obviously the Brussels hierarchy care not a jot for the will of the people and will try to make the Irish "get it right" or simply move the goalposts so the whole thing can take effect on a majority vote.

Don't see what it's got to do with socialism though...Ken Clarke's all for it and he's a Tory. Tony Benn's agin it and he's...well, you get my drift.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I agree but it was meant as a rider.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I think the family is a very important form of collectivism.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

OK. Must agree that this present government have acted disgracefully by denying us a referendum on it.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

What does that mean? If you dad voted conservative, are you expected to vote conservative or visa versa.
I think the family is important....full stop.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

:confused: Nothing to do with how they vote..

Like you say, its about the family being important. :)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

That probably sounded good in the student debating society at Hull University. Comes over as a load of pretentious, meaningless waffle in the somewhat more down-to-earth surroundings of Accyweb. :rolleyes:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I think all this student hatred is rather daft. Accringtonweb is not really a very nice place to be when several members decide to come out with unprovoked personal attacks over innocent non-controversial posts.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

LONG WORDS ARE MEANINGLESS BECAUSE I DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

i said in an earlier post i thought you were paranoid, that post confirms it.:rolleyes:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Chucking out time at the Union bar, is it? Must've been a good night...you're shouting.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

said Cashman, in an unprovoked personal attack.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

thats not a personal attack its an honest observation, you sure yer at uni?

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Why does everyone always assume we are in the debating society? Lancaster Uni's debating society is full of Labour Party members who shun anyone who doesn't agree with them just for the sake of it and without any good reason...

...in fact, that is just like accyweb, so maybe I SHOULD join the debating society if it means I'll enjoy it as much as I enjoy this forum :p

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Who the hell pulled your chain?
Is that clear enough?

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Evidently not Roy!
Think you need to simplify it further!

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

It's sweet Andrewb's little college chum has returned, to grace us with their wisdom.

Perhaps Andrewb could change his name, once again?

Then they could be co-joined as Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, named after the other absursist, tragic comics.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Don't know Rindi, looks like they're alive and kicking to me:D

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Christ exhorts us, as individuals, to care for the poor and sick - not to cede the mission to government.

Socialism, in all its forms, has failed everywhere it's been tried.....a) because it goes against human nature and b) because ultimately it is unsustainable. And yet it seems that many still cling to the notion, in the mistaken belief that it just hasn't yet been implemented correctly. It's latest incarnation is a form of economic fascism. This too will fail.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I agree entirely - we are not all equal some people work harder than others and deserve more from life.I'm even prepared to admit someone out there maybe as good as me.Do you have to shout?:tongueout

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Don't think you can put it much clearer than that Bullseyebarb, Its always said that you could take the wealth of the whole world, share it out equally with all the inhabitants, and within 5 years it would be status quo, the haves would have and have knots would be back where they started

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

The same could be said of religion too.;)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Don't start on religion Rindi, we've enough with politics:rolleyes:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Well said! :D

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

maybe thats why Cuba has a better literacy rate than the US , and maybe thats why more Cubans have better access to basic free health care than lots of innner city urban Americans.
Maybe , just maybe thats why the folks of Cuba kept Fidel Castro in power for so many years (since Eisenhower was president if I'm not mistaken) and not followed the American capitalistic model placed on neighbouring Haiti ;)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

What's the difference between Americans and Canadians?....They all look the same to me..............:hidewall::D:p

And the Ausies?...........Ausies from Ossy....Canadians from Blackburn.....Americans from Burnley?

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Canadians are unarmed Americans with health care, and a high popularity rating:D

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Shhh, not so loud .... everyone will want health care and education ....;)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Ye right...I think I will change that to Canadians from Burnley?;)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

You forgot "c": c) Because the US doesn't like it, and is prepared to use all its military and economic might to prevent it.:eek:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Me too: I eschew obfuscation.:D

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Anymore of that red propoganda and you'll be up against Senator Barb McCarthy.;)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Why do people get socialism and communism mixed up, socialism is basically provision of services based on need rather than ability to pay.

Communism is the equal sharing of products and capital.

Capitalism is the provision of these services based on competition.

(simplistic I know but..... I haven't even started on the collective ownership etc)

It is communism that has failed, not socialism. Socialism is alive and well in the free provision of education and healcare in this country and many others.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Except in America, where the red under the bed in more than likely the result of a blood haemorrhage, because you couldn't afford proper nursing care.:D

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

A worse human rights record, don't have proper judicial system, no justice system, most of public living in abject poverty. Are you honestly suggesting we should forfeit all our human rights and justice system, so we can have better literacy rates?

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Castro always manages to get aid more quickly to victims of hurricanes, than George W. did.;)

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Thanks for the negative karma whoever the hell you are?
Have my suspicions though.
Why not sign it?:mad:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I think it's time you looked at the negative impact of the role the US has played concerning Cuba .... And perhaps a look at the history of Cuba before Castro took over ... or at least watch Godfather ll. Better still, visit the place.

Good news for the Americans is that if you live close to Canada, you can still get Cuban cigars, because my country has always recognized Castro's govt., and has excellent relations with Cuba.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

And while I'm at it, look at the role the US plays in the whole region .... remember the Contras? Or the threat posed by the evil empire of Grenada? Panama? Isn't it time to stop toeing the American party line? We live closer to them than you do, and we have lost nothing by standing up to them; and, on occasion (such as with the bs in Iraq), we tell them to get stuffed.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

you have an objection to Literacy ? please explain , joined up writing not neccesary , printing will do ........
that statement is one of the dumbest things you have ever said , and coming from someone who is enjoying a university education a complete disgrace and sad reflection on your teachers, both past and present. :( :(

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

you mean the ones hand rolled on the innner thighs of nubile young ladies :eek: :eek: , apologies for sounding like a corrupt dirty old gringo ;)

ok, time for bed

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Makes me want to go out and buy a Ceegaar bee jaysus.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Good job I'm not reading your post when I'm three sheets to the wind Alan, or I my just have though you wanted a Ceegaar made by jaysay:D

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Taken in context of course I have no objection to literacy! I was simply highlighting that Cuba has many human rights issues, has little real democracy, most of the population living in abject poverty, and the vast majority don't go on to college, heck a huge percentage don't even get to high school. But yes, it has good literacy rates.

Eric, I am by no means defending the US here.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I have just recently watch some holiday Videos taken in Cuba, and to be quite honest I can't really understand people wanting to go there of a holiday, it was like watching something from the 60s, it was like a time warp, everything had just stood still, the cars looked like they were out of a museum, and the place was like a hovel, no thankyou Cuba you can keep it

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

I had a similar impression of Malta when I saw the wrecks they use as buses.

Not all countries have displays of wealth - ie modern transport - and use their resources on what they consider more important ways to health and happiness.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

But you have to ask yourself why it's "like a time warp." The US has ruthlessly waged economic warfare on Cuba since Castro, or to be more correct the Cuban people, took power. However, Cuba is a great place to vacation; trust me, I've been there several times. And Cuba is not without friends; and I'm proud to say that Canada is one of them.

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

Yes, those are the ones..... oh to be the hand that does the rolling;) I no longer smoke cigarettes, but I do like the occasional cigar. On the Tyendenaga reserve (home of the Bay of Quinte Mohawk First Nation) I can get Romeo y Julietas, or Montecristos at $5.00 a pop:theband:

Re: is socialism dead? and should we care?
 

As you have no objection to literassy:), may I suggest a book by an American: "Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy" by Noam Chomsky. Barb probably has a copy on her coffee table, right next to the Glock:D:hidewall: