The Law's an Ass
 

BBC NEWS | England | Kent | Rapist sues landlady from prison

A hairdresser has said she hopes to appeal after a convicted rapist sued her from jail when she cleared out the flat he rented above one of her salons.

Errrrrrmmmmmmmmmm.........the law goes mad again!!!! :eek:

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Says in the report that she should have sought legal advice as laws are in place to stop landlords taking hasty action.

If your tenant gets a life sentence for a crime it can hardly be considered hasty to make other arrangements regarding the property you are renting them. She even put his stuff into storage an was forking out 60 brick a month for the privilege ( wonder how long she was thinking of keeping that up ) I would have just ordered a skip and dumped the lot in.

Aye, the Law is an Ass :(

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If he wasn't a rapist and he had simply gone on business for a few months it would be seen as right. He's paying the rent and she has no right to terminate the contract unless he breaches it, and nothing there suggests he has.

Hate to say it, but seen as I am more inclined to think this way than the ordinary newspaper reader I will say it anyway, and that isn't the law being an ass at all.

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Again the law helps the guilty n humps the innocent!!!! When he went down he should have lost all his rights.

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Fair enough but paying for it is the issue as well.

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Then when he gets out he has no property and resorts to crime again?

God, why didn't I think of that?

She should have stuck to the law herself and consulted a solicitor before taking it upon herself to bag up someone's belongings. I'm sure she could have rang the police to report him missing and have found out where he was, and then proceeded rather than assuming he wasn't coming back.

I would like to think I would show concern about someone just not being around for so long even if their rent was being paid to me. A lot of rent is just paid by direct debit these days, for all she knew he could have been dead somewhere.

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It says he was still paying his rent, therefore there is no breach of contract.

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Do you think a convicted burgler should have to pay back what he stole and a black mark should be registered against his name until he paid back the debt and that baliffs should hound him until he has paid:confused:.....I do.

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So he sues and say he wins ok; his victim then sues him; she wins and gets the money he won from suing his landlady. Who loses then? When he comes out he would have to leave the area any. The moral of the mess should be to consult an expert when in a situation that mirrors this one.

Then again I am a guy so what do I know.

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Agree with that whole heartedly.

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whats it with these tories turning liberal? why dont you just join the liberal party,or are you just after their votes..........:rolleyes:

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Who is that aimed at?

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What is un-conservative about following the law as it is literally written?

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well it don't say that the way i read it:confused: so guess you n i have been topped by a legal mind.:rolleyes:

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As for the rent still being paid, I read it on another website but for the claim to succeed he would have had to have abided by his contract anyway, tenancy contracts are generally pretty solid in that respect, so he must have been paying otherwise there isn't a chance he would have got anyone to represent him in court.

Chances are he is on a no win no fee basis, and solicitors taking on these claims have a specific risk assessment and generally if there is a less than 61% chance of success they wont take on the case. If he hadn't been paying there wouldn't be anywhere near that high a chance of success. I can't find the page I read it on now but I'll trying to find it.

Here is the page that said he used public money to fund his case though, implying legal aid. Rapist Sues Landlady From Jail; Wins Damages

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Sorry, I googled the story to see if the story was different anywhere else and I can't find the one it was now, but I still stand by my convictions because there is no chance anyone would represent him if he had breached the contract.

If he had breached the contract she would've been well within her rights and he wouldn't have been successful. Anyone living in rented property should be aware of these general rights though and they are available on the government website, she wouldn't have even had to seek legal advice to know she wasn't legally able to do that. She admits herself that she should have got legal advice before doing it.

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The law really is an ass.....I have watched over the years these Baliff programmes and taken on board how much they earn for chasing parking offenders.....who gives a toss if you park in the wrong place?
Does this help you and I as taxpayers.........no I don't think it does.
Target the criminals.....Tag them, make them pay for the rest of their lives for the crimes they have commited. We are too soft with offenders and the victim suffers all the time.
Put them on a register not only as an offender but as a debter to the individual they offended against.
Lets see how much the overpaid briefs make out of that?

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Do people realise she did this before he was actually convicted? He hadn't even been put on trial for the crime before she removed his things, he was just in custody.

What if he had been found not guilty and come home to his flat empty? If he had been found innocent people would be thinking completely different about this, but I don't think like that because I think everyone should be treated equally under the law, not rapist vs 'good citizen'.

I think the decision makes sense but I can't be bothered arguing about it any further because it wont change my mind and it probably wont change yours, and it certainly wont change the decision!

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well it looks like according to the law,a bloody long time,which brings us back to the thread title- The Laws an Ass.:rolleyes:

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If you google it some of them say what she did wrong. She should have gone to the court and claimed possession of the property, then legally she would have been able to empty it.

She's paying for a mistake basically but unfortunately there is that little point of the law that ignorance is not a defense. I'm not saying that this is necessarily fair, but it stops people taking advantage of the law, and in respect of landlords being able to empty your home of all your belongings as they wish I'm glad that they didn't let her off otherwise other landlords might decide to do the same in favour of a more desireable occupant and that would be much more serious than this.
He only won £750 or something anyway, he wont see the penny of the fee's she's having to pay so it isn't like he is going to be rolling in wealth when he gets out of prison. Blame the solicitors for the high fee's she's having to pay!

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His stuff was in storage. I'm sure he'd have easily found somewhere else to live.....unless he would've had to disclose the fact that he was a serial rapist.
Oh! But he doesn't have to do that does he 'cos that would probably infringe his rights to privacy or something. So any prospective landlord/lady could be left in the same predicament.

In fact, do modern rental agreements have a provision for disclosure of criminal convictions?? If not, should they?? The lady in the article states that if she'd known she wouldn't have let to him due to girls working in the salon below. Ergo - would he then have been in breach of contract for not being truthful????

As always with stories like this, we, the general public, are only really told the basics for the story. If every little thing was disclosed then maybe we would think differently. However, the man WAS convicted TO LIFE and should therefore lose all privileges. His belongings should be sold to pay for his costs in the original case.

Until such time a political party actually takes the bull by the horns and says enough of the 'softly, softly' approach with the criminal element of the country then I stand by the title of this thread regarding this story - THE LAW IS AN ASS.

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I live in rented property and I could easily be arrested on suspicion of a crime by mistake. I'd hate to think my landlady could empty my home and rent it out to someone else when I haven't breached my contract.

This decision was clearly based on that idea and to stop the possible creation of a loophole in tenancy agreements. Why is this story not in decent newspapers? Because the only point of the story is that he is a rapist, not the law at all.

Also, she is the one that broke the law in this case, not him. If the decision was based on him being a rapist it would almost be like double jeopardy.

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If it looked like he'd done a runner then how was she supposed to know he was in jail/custody??

See the disclosure bit in my last post but he obviously neglected to say "I'm a convicted Rapist".

Have you been previously convicted of a crime Blazey?? I would think not (though I may be mistaken - who knows!!)

Therefore your landlord would have no reason to worry over mistaken identity would he/she? Therefore why would they see the need to evict you?? Esp. as I'm sure you'd be on the phone to reassure them it was a mistake and it would be all sorted soon.

We could go on all night picking holes in each others reasoning but at the end of it all this case highlights THE LAW IS AN ASS!!!!

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he should be happy with that, £60 a month is probably cheaper than his rent! he wont have any problems finding somewhere to live when he gets out,the council will rehome him.....

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It's nothing like Double Jeopardy! :confused:


Absolutely! It's not as if she sold his stuff or just chucked it out on the street. If and when he gets out of prison (life? Ha! Don't make me laugh!) it's all still there for him AT HER EXPENSE!

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ha but thats the way it should be, blaze says so.:rolleyes:

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You mean to say blazey's never wrong cashy:rolleyes:

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I agree with Blazey on this one. If she emptied the flat illegally then she should have lost in court.

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He could have been working away and come back to find she had emptied his flat.

You can't just throw out a tenant because they have made a mess of your flat. You have to abide by the tenancy agreement and the law. There are correct ways to evict a tenant within the law. The law should and does protect both the tenant and land lord. She did not so he was within his right to sue. She lost and should have done.

The only reason the story even hit the papers is because he is in jail.

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I don't see why one should damn a law just because it doesn't conform to one's personal biases. The law is above this; that is why it works, and why it is necessary. Some say "this is a good law, because it confirms and supports what I believe; and this law is a bad law because it doesn't conform to my prejudices." They are not in fact talking about law at all, but about their own idiosyncrasies.

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The newspaper article doesn’t give the full story only the emotive rapist bit and certainly doesn’t reveal the terms of the tenancy agreement. And that is what the case rests on.

I assume that the tenancy agreement was presented in court and the judge would have decided if Mrs Goymer had breached it. It has to be presumed that he thought she had because he found for the defendant.

So until we know the full details we cannot say that the law was an ass or not.

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This was a publicly-funded case. We paid for this to be brought before the Courts. I wasn’t asked whether I wanted to fund it, was anyone else ??

His rights should diminish while he is serving his time ( supposedly life in this instance ) What makes him think he will return to the flat…ahhh I know, life doesn’t mean “life” with our Courts does it.

I think his Landlord did well by the man by putting his belongings into storage.

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No one is asked if they wanted to fund any public purse legal expenses.

I agree a prisoner’s rights should diminish whilst in jail but the reality is that they don’t appear to.

But if the landlady breached the tenancy agreement then she was in the wrong.

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He wasn't convicted of any crime when she decided to put his things into storage. The fact he won his claim suggests that the only person who breached the contract was her, therefore she is legally in the wrong. The fact that he is a rapist doesn't matter.

I can't put it any simpler than what I already have done. I just study the law, I don't make it, and I certainly don't make the decisions, but in this case I personally would've made the same decision.

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i cant see in the article if when they say he paid his rent it means he went to work and paid his rent or if he claimed the rent from the council which realisticly woudl mean that everyone else paid his rent and not him

if he was on benefits then the council if notified of his conviction would have stopped the rent been paid but as what quite often happens people go to prison and the rent still gets paid

no matter what the contract says as soon as a person is sent to prison the landlord should be able to throw out the contents of the property after an acceptable amount of time to allow arrangements to be made bythe tennants friends or family to remove the contents but up until conviction no action should be allowed to be made as the accused may be found not guilty

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You are allowed to do that but you have to seek permission from the court first, which she didn't, hence why she got fined.

It's pretty simple really, she didn't follow standard procedure so she was forced to cough up. The judge couldn't treat the guy like a rapist, he had to treat him like an ordinary citizen and award damages, and the fee's have to be paid by someone and it's also the norm that the losing side pays the fees.

I'm still trying to graps what is unconservative of me agreeing to this case, contract law is centuries old and I am not saying lets be lenient with it, I'm saying keep to it.

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It would be a poor tenancy agreement if it didn't. Perhaps she should look into that. If there was rotting food in the flat surely that would have been a health and safety issue?

Also, it's an interesting point about if he was still claiming housing benefit whilst in jail and if not who was paying the rent? He could find himself on dodgy ground if claiming benefits he wasn't entitled to due to being in jail. This might just come back to bite him. I can't help feeling that I hope it does.

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I don't think he will care, he is doing life isn't he?

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Yes you can but you have to comply with the law when you do it. She must not have or she would have won the case.

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It is nice to see that someone can understand something so simple :p

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oh its simple enough to understand,that dont mean i think its right that a jailbird is allowed to use public money.:p

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The only cost to the public would be the cost of the hearing. If she had followed the law in the first place it wouldn't have even happened. I'm sure her side would probably have been directed to try and settle out of court as well for such a small amount of money.

She has nobody to blame but herself and the people you should all be blaming is her for not using her head. Past debt collector and land lady? Yes I'm sure she's charming... when she wants your money of course. She should have known better.

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As recently as the 12th century, law was "rediscovered" in Bologna. And it is this rediscovery which eventually led to the centralized state, replacing the chaos that followed the collapse of the western empire. This, I know, sounds trivial, and perhaps it is; however, what it leads to is the inescapable conclusion that the State and the Law are inseparable. So, whether or not the law is sometimes asinine is irrelevant; what is important is that it is necessary; and that to be effective, it has to be followed to the letter. Evidently, the woman in question did not consider this.

Of course, we could always re-introduce trial by ordeal, or by combat:rolleyes:

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not disputing that, what i am disputing is simple a piece of crap in jail,like this fellow is should have NO redress to 1 penny of public money. the fact they do does not make it right, thats a point you will not take on board.:mosher:

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I think I have to agree with you. Damnit ... I thought I would never have to say that;):D

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I agree that these particular laws and regulations are in place to protect the vast majority of tennents , and thanks for the input of your untold wisdom to point out that most of us are just to fick to agree with you.

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i agree he should not of, but also they should have no human rights in jail aswell but thats a different topic,

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The law that made that decision is a good one, though it isn't everyday that it's used to protect the rights of rapists. More often I imagine it's used to protect ordinary citizens.

The only reason it made it into the paper is because he's a convicted rapist, hence why it's not in the law pages on the broadsheet papers. It's not even news.

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I'm never going to agree that there should be one set of laws for one group of people and another for people we don't like.

America got round this by building a nice little place in Cuba. I'm sure we could do the same if you really want to start avoiding laws. Though lets bear in mind that the cost to america for cases against them for fale imprisonment in that lovely little place in Cuba costs them far more than it costs for a straight forward tenancy disagreement.

If we're basing it on the matter of cost then we should at least be realistic. Especially when we start getting victims of injustice coming out of prison after being wrongly convicted of a crime and claiming they were in fact innocent, therefore still protected under the same rights as you and I and that they've been tortured day in day out wrongly.

Or we could just treat them like human beings, or at least domestic animals and then at least we don't have to face a very difficult mess when we have wrongly imprisoned people.

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So Blazey.. I would presume you would like to be a defence lawyer?

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I don't mind which side I work for as long as problems get dealt with. Definitely dealing with civil claims though. I find criminal law boring.

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Ah..talking about "sides" so soon into your career..not a good start.you've already put your colours up on your sig.. impartial?

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Well you talked about the defence... and I said I couldn't care which side I was on as long as I get to be part of solving the problems i'm paid to deal with.

I'm not impartial, I am a human being. I set standards for myself and I'm certainly not a relativist.

For me my politics is independent of my view on the law. Politics is simply a matter of preference, whereas the law is to be followed, whether it be literally or liberally, whatever produces the better consequences.

I repeat that I am only human, so I am not perfection nor do I think I am even close to it. What else can I say? My God is my judge, not you or any other member of this forum.

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classic..PMSL..that is superb .:D

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I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to get me to say.

I'm a 19yr old law student who votes for the tory party, I'm catholic, I dye my hair from blonde to dark brown, I sit on my laptop most of the time and to be quite frank that is about it. Nothing you can gain from me so why do you bother trying to get a reaction out of me?

Are you really that bored?

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I'm not trying to get you to say anything..and I could do without any reaction..if you are a Tory and talk as if you are more a Liberal I will take it on..I don't make any distinction of hair style or age.. lets get this sorted so there is no confusion from any side.. I hate the Tories.. wether it's you or anyone.. I belive I have good reason for that feeling.. now it's all sorted and we all know were we stand.

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OK so you just hate me for being a tory voter? I do have some liberal beliefs, mainly because I don't let the party dictate how I think, but I relate most of my views to tory ideas. A lot of my feelings probably could relate to labour too, amongst many other parties.

I find it sad that you dislike me just because of the party I vote for. How would you decide whether you liked me if I didn't declare my politics?

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My fees to go to uni last year were £3070.
This year they're £3145.

Who introduced them? Labour
Who increased them? Labour
Who plans to continue increasing them? Labour

Perhaps I am missing the point, but Labour are currently limiting my access to uni. I have a job and I still can't afford to live comfortably at university without having to worry about money. By the end of this upcoming academic year I'll be in £15,000 debt.

£15,000 debt that I wouldn't be in if the government didn't introduce fee's in order to give the impression that it was making studying easier. Why was it that introducing fee's was their solution to a class related problem? I can't see the sense in that at all.

How can we get the working class kids into uni? I know, let's introduce fees.

More students get to go to uni now but it hasn't really solved any problems whatsoever.

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Please clarify, as a Conservative are you advocating Free University places for all or only for those from low incomes?

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I'll jump in.. of course the tories will advocte free university places.. because they don't have to pay from their taxes.. or pay very little..if its going to be free then why should the taxpayer pay for the boys from Eton.. that have been educated by the rich parents in private.. get free places at university?

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Just let her answer for herself, I think her reply could be very illuminating and I look forward to hearing it

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While the boys are at Eton and not an education authority funded school, is that not saving the taxpayer money?

If University is going to be free then it should be free for all those that wish to go, in a similar way to high school.

How this could work in practice I am not sure as I don't know how universities are currently funded.

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That isn't what I would ask for, but there are often 'mitigating circumstances' which are, and should be, taken into account. No two cases are identical and some are more different than others.

For example a lorry driver fell asleep at the wheel, ran into another vehicle and killed someone. Should he be prosecuted? The initial reaction of most people would be "Of course he should!" - but he isn't going to be. The reason why is that he suffers from sleep apnoea and was unaware that he suffers from sleep apnoea. He may have 'dozed off' and woken up hundreds of times before and never even noticed. I know 2 people who do the same and they are totally unaware that they have ever been asleep.

This case of the woman and her flat shouldn't be affected by the fact that the absentee tenant is a rapist; but it should, in my opinion, be affected by the fact that the power was off in the flat and food was rotting, plus the fact that she did all she could to make sure his belongings were safe. Her actions were done without malice and I feel it should be viewed differently than for instance if she'd just chucked all his stuff in a skip.

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You mean people like Harriet Harman, Mancie

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For all.

The tax player pays to educate everyone who goes to prison so why not everyone who wants to go to University? There will still be admissions criteria and money goes to University from all sorts of private funding. For example the City Solicitor's Education Trust gives funding to law departments all over the country, and I am sure there are many other funds for other subjects.

Places would be more limited but the whole point of University is that the brightest and most able get the better qualifications. I'm sure I'm not the only person who read that the value of a degree has actually dropped recently due to the numbers of people now able to get degree's.

It's nice that everyone can go to uni if they want to but what really is the point of it if there aren't enough graduate rate jobs to go around? It's just getting people into debt just to end up in jobs they could have gone to anyway. To the extent that McDonalds is in the 100 Top Gradute Recruiters guide and has been for years.

So yes, I would close the doors to university a little if it meant it was cheaper and made my degree more worthwhile.

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Just to add, at university I don't know who is from a family on a low income like mine or who is from a rich family. I just think everyone is after the same thing as me and that is a good education.

I find the class thing a bit of an excuse to complain about something. I couldn't care less what class people are from, it's never been a big issue in my house even though we have a very low income. I've never heard any of my family blame a politician for their lifestyle so I find it hard to associate lifestyle with anything other than own personal choice.

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You seem to have a confusing stereotypical idea of what a conservative is...

If a person can afford private education for their children, their income must be quite substantially higher than the 'ordinary' or average income. Surely the more you earn the more tax you end up paying?

It's not just the working class person that pays tax is it!? You have completely just lost me.

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they should NEVER have been withdrawn,but thats another thread.:(

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Can't remember the details now Cashy, but there is some facility for applying for a grant, albeit not huge. When my son was doing his Masters five years ago, and my income had reduced considerably, he did get some sort of funding.

Sorry, can't remember the details without rummaging through a big file.

Blazey: the fee amount you quote seems particularly high to me, does this not cover a loan towards living expenses, etc too ?

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Apologies ... got stupid head on :silly: Was looking at your overall debt of £15,000 which would include the living expenses loans, not just fees.

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Stupid head kate, didn't think you had one of those:D

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That could either be a compliment or interpret as totally boring ...:D As you put a laugh smiley on will take it as the former, or tongue in cheek .. mmmm.

I do think that the actual tuition ought to be offered F.O.C., however, the loan should still stand for the living expenses. It does seem hard to pay off these huge amounts once you are earning over a certain amount I know, but not crippling instalments and is taken out at source before you get your pay packet, so you don't really notice it to a certain extent (if that makes sense).

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I get a grant for living expenses so I haven't included that in my expenses.

In total I get 9k a year which also includes the loan for fees. Some in a grant so I deducted that from the amount I quoted.

My amount is actually lower than some people's debt because obviously not everyone gets the full grant.

Grants and bursaries still exist and I get both of those, which make life a little bit easier. I also have a part time job.

I don't go out socialising very much but I do like to eat well and obviously money goes towards living costs and study materials. I don't have any savings.

A lot of students from families that can afford fee's tend to still get out the loan and put the money into savings accounts because then they can make a small profit during their time at university.

I don't begrudge anyone who has more money than me at university because I have too much to worry about in my own life without worrying about everyone elses.

I give talks to young students about finance and living at university. If there was money available then I'd know about it because it's my job to make sure people know what thye're entitled to and the types of support that is available.

I don't let the debt worry me unless, like the approaching term, I can't afford to get through it even on a strict budget. I'm applying for a second job though so I should be ok.